Fight back against the "equality" avatars

[ALAYMAN]

...ALAYMAN teaches works-based righteousness!?!? 

No, not just works.  Appearances count, too.

lol, says the guy who hasn't appeared in any of Christ's church for decades.




poser.

 

[Castor Muscular]

...ALAYMAN teaches works-based righteousness!?!? 

No, not just works.  Appearances count, too.

lol, says the guy who hasn't appeared in any of Christ's church for decades.




poser.

You lie.  But then pharisees do that. 

 

[rsc2a]

You only accept dead people?

Are you suggesting that all living people are perpetually unrepentant?

To some extent, yes, I am absolutely saying that.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

No. Absolutely not. Not even a little bit. And then...

...ALAYMAN teaches works-based righteousness!?!? 

What in the world are you babbling about now?[/quote]

You explicitly stated that Jesus does not accept us as we are. You've completely missed the whole point of Jesus coming with that one statement.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Yes, which is a free gift (i.e. "grace"). And that not of yourself...

Who would argue that it's not God's grace that saves us, sanctifies us, and glorifies us?[/quote]

You apparently.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]You are arguing against things that only you've invented.  My point was that no person ought to feel "accepted" in the sense that they are comfortable with their sin, particularly those who are lost. [/quote]

That may have been your point, but it is definitely not what you said. I am arguing against your actual words, not the words you apparently meant to write that never made it out of your head.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]One gay man said "why would God want me to repent of the wonderful gift of my gayness, which He gave me"? [/quote]

In one sense (albeit small), he is right. In another, very very wrong.

(I know I've told you this before, but life is mostly greys, not black and white. Not only grey, but alternating shades of grey, textures of grey, shadows of grey, contrasting greys...amusingly enough, pastor made this point just yesterday.)

[quote author=ALAYMAN]That person has bought into the idea that God accepts sinfulness as acceptable.[/quote]

Perhaps.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

I think some gay folks have an agenda; I don't think there is "a gay agenda".

Again, you're sadly mistaken.[/quote]

Very simple question...do you have any close gay friends?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]lol, says the guy who hasn't appeared in any of Christ's church for decades.[/quote]

Christ's Church is not a place; she is a people.

 

[Timothy]

Wait. I just went over the last 12 or so post .... are you saying that the desire is okay, but to act on the desire is where the sin it?

That is an interesting point.

I thank God I don't have that temptation to deal with. And yes, I suppose anyone who is tempted to lust after the same sex is far different than two men sharing a bed.

i think it depends on whether it is fed and maintained... or surrendered to God as He commanded us to do with all temptations and wayward thoughts in captivity...  ... .. for some the only difference between a temptation and a committed sin is the presence or lack of an opportunity... ...  in that regard the desire to sin is definitely sin.. ... but still falls far short of physically committing sin.. .. . the bottom line is that the human condition is sinful.. period... but some sins do have far more insidious results than others...  and require a darker heart to commit... .  but left to itself , and without God, any heart can succumb to that darkness .... .  and every heart will.. without Him.. . 

To me, referring to someone as a homosexual admits they are beyond just the temptation. If someone is tempted to kill someone we don't call that person a murderer. If a man came to me and said he needed help with some horrible temptations toward the same sex I wouldn't call him a homosexual. To me, a homosexual is someone beyond just temptation.

 

[Castor Muscular]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]lol, says the guy who hasn't appeared in any of Christ's church for decades.

Christ's Church is not a place; she is a people.
[/quote]

He's just a troll and an accuser who has no idea what he's talking about. 

 

[FreeToBeMe]

Personally, I prefer this equality avatar:

 

[ALAYMAN]

To some extent, yes, I am absolutely saying that.

And so the relevance of you saying that is that we as Christians ought to give a pass to sin in our lives and in that of others?  Is this what you mean by "acceptance"?

You explicitly stated that Jesus does not accept us as we are. You've completely missed the whole point of Jesus coming with that one statement.

He most certainly doesn't accept complacency towards our own sin, nor the sin of others.  His Lordship demands that we strive to become more like him, and his grace, empowered by the Spirit guarantees that he will accomplish what he began.  When we get complacent in our sin there is only one of two conclusions:  that we will be chastened as his child, or, we are not his child and have not his Spirit.

You apparently <would argue that it's not God's grace that saves us, sanctifies us, and glorifies us >.

As often is the case with you, you're mistaken and confused.

In one sense (albeit small), he is right. In another, very very wrong.

In what sense is gayness a gift not to be repented of?

Very simple question...do you have any close gay friends?

No, and that has no bearing on my ability to discern an overtly hostile agenda in our culture that promotes a model of "love" which claims same-sex love is normal and healthy.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I do have gay friends and a family member (cousin) who is gay.
Not all gay individuals would think the same way about all issues any more than straight people do.

But, politically speaking, there is a gay agenda that has been and is being put forth in this country and other parts of the world. Do ALL gays agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.

 

[rsc2a]

To some extent, yes, I am absolutely saying that.

And so the relevance of you saying that is that we as Christians ought to give a pass to sin in our lives and in that of others?

No.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Is this what you mean by "acceptance"?[/quote]

And no.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

You explicitly stated that Jesus does not accept us as we are. You've completely missed the whole point of Jesus coming with that one statement.

He most certainly doesn't accept complacency towards our own sin, nor the sin of others.  His Lordship demands that we strive to become more like him, and his grace, empowered by the Spirit guarantees that he will accomplish what he began.  When we get complacent in our sin there is only one of two conclusions:  that we will be chastened as his child, or, we are not his child and have not his Spirit.[/quote]

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

Different statements. I haven't said anything at all about your latest statement, only the first one.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

You apparently <would argue that it's not God's grace that saves us, sanctifies us, and glorifies us >.

As often is the case with you, you're mistaken and confused.[/quote]

Just to repeat:

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

You seem to misunderstand grace. Grace isn't based on us at all, but on Christ and Christ alone. Grace is God looking down and saying, "That one...he is mine!", warts and all. It is God doing more than wiping off the filth that covers us to accept us but God Himself becoming that filth so that we can become like Him. It is the cost of forgiveness. It is the price of redemption. It is the cross of Jesus. And it has nothing to do with who we are or are not, except that we are chosen of God.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

In one sense (albeit small), he is right. In another, very very wrong.

In what sense is gayness a gift not to be repented of?[/quote]

Because it helps make him who he is. I don't ask people to apologize for the fact that they exist.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Very simple question...do you have any close gay friends?

No...[/quote]

That was an obvious answer.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...and that has no bearing on my ability to discern an overtly hostile agenda in our culture that promotes a model of "love" which claims same-sex love is normal and healthy.[/quote]

Actually it does. In fact, this statement alone shows why you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[rsc2a]

This statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Not all gay individuals would think the same way about all issues any more than straight people do.[/quote]

...and this statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]But, politically speaking, there is a gay agenda that has been and is being put forth in this country and other parts of the world. Do ALL gays agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.[/quote]

...are contradictory.

 

[ALAYMAN]

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

...Different statements. I haven't said anything at all about your latest statement, only the first one.

So is it your opinion that Christ accepts people who don't repent?  Does Christ expect sinners to actually have an attitude that they should go and sin no more? 

Christ accepts the sinner, but he most certainly doesn't accept the sin, but rather expects repentance to be a characteristic of any person, either repentance unto faith at regeneration, or repentance in sanctification after conversion.

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

You seem to misunderstand grace. Grace isn't based on us at all, but on Christ and Christ alone. Grace is God looking down and saying, "That one...he is mine!", warts and all. It is God doing more than wiping off the filth that covers us to accept us but God Himself becoming that filth so that we can become like Him. It is the cost of forgiveness. It is the price of redemption. It is the cross of Jesus. And it has nothing to do with who we are or are not, except that we are chosen of God.

We are accepted in the beloved, which is a statement of our justification in Christ, but that same grace you refer to is a grace that is supplied in order that we grow in it, and growing in grace and knowledge is antithetical to demanding Christ accept our sinfulness, which is exactly what the man in my next quote is doing, no matter how much you use your pretzel-like semantical sophistry to try to make it mean something else.

Because it helps make him who he is. I don't ask people to apologize for the fact that they exist.

And pedophiles are what they are because of their sinful nature too.  Should we likewise not ask God to take away the love of a child and and adult member of NAMBLA?

That was an obvious answer....

Actually it does. In fact, this statement alone shows why you have no clue what you are talking about.

Well, I don't have any friends that are crackheads, but I'm pretty sure that no matter how much they tell me that I should just accept them <ahem> and their love for a good high that they still need to get off the pipe.

 

[rsc2a]

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

...Different statements. I haven't said anything at all about your latest statement, only the first one.

So is it your opinion that Christ accepts people who don't repent?  Does Christ expect sinners to actually have an attitude that they should go and sin no more?

Orthodoxy states that Christ accepts people without condition. He accepts them as they are. They bring nothing but their own righteousness menstrual rags to God. Sanctification will result as a part of this acceptance, but this acceptance is not conditioned on sanctification. You got the order backwards.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ accepts the sinner, but he most certainly doesn't accept the sin, but rather expects repentance to be a characteristic of any person, either repentance unto faith at regeneration, or repentance in sanctification after conversion.[/quote]

Yes. Just like I expect a ball to fall to the ground when I throw it into the sky. It's inevitable, but the fact that gravity exists is independent (and pre-exists) the tossing of the ball.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

And Christ doesn't accept them as they are either.  - Alayman

You seem to misunderstand grace. Grace isn't based on us at all, but on Christ and Christ alone. Grace is God looking down and saying, "That one...he is mine!", warts and all. It is God doing more than wiping off the filth that covers us to accept us but God Himself becoming that filth so that we can become like Him. It is the cost of forgiveness. It is the price of redemption. It is the cross of Jesus. And it has nothing to do with who we are or are not, except that we are chosen of God.

We are accepted in the beloved, which is a statement of our justification in Christ, but that same grace you refer to is a grace that is supplied in order that we grow in it, and growing in grace and knowledge is antithetical to demanding Christ accept our sinfulness, which is exactly what the man in my next quote is doing, no matter how much you use your pretzel-like semantical sophistry to try to make it mean something else.[/quote]

And this growth is, likewise, a gift. It is His grace that justifies us, His grace that sanctifies us, and His grace that will ultimately glorify us.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Because it helps make him who he is. I don't ask people to apologize for the fact that they exist.

And pedophiles are what they are because of their sinful nature too.  Should we likewise not ask God to take away the love of a child and and adult member of NAMBLA?[/quote]

Homosexuals are sinners by the fact of their being homosexual...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

That was an obvious answer....

Actually it does. In fact, this statement alone shows why you have no clue what you are talking about.

Well, I don't have any friends that are crackheads, but I'm pretty sure that no matter how much they tell me that I should just accept them <ahem> and their love for a good high that they still need to get off the pipe.[/quote]

Yes...you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

This statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Not all gay individuals would think the same way about all issues any more than straight people do.

...and this statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]But, politically speaking, there is a gay agenda that has been and is being put forth in this country and other parts of the world. Do ALL gays agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.[/quote]

...are contradictory.
[/quote]

No, they aren't .
Not all Conservatives think the same way on all issues...but there is, politically speaking a conservative agenda. do all conservatives agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.

I've now joined the ranks of Sidlow Baxter...suffering at the hands of your comprehension skills. 

 

[rsc2a]

This statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Not all gay individuals would think the same way about all issues any more than straight people do.

...and this statement...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]But, politically speaking, there is a gay agenda that has been and is being put forth in this country and other parts of the world. Do ALL gays agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.

...are contradictory.
[/quote]

No, they aren't .
Not all Conservatives think the same way on all issues...but there is, politically speaking a conservative agenda. do all conservatives agree with it....no....but I'd venture to say the vast majority do.

I've now joined the ranks of Sidlow Baxter...suffering at the hands of your comprehension skills. 
[/quote]

See the bolded parts.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Orthodoxy states that Christ accepts people without condition. He accepts them as they are. They bring nothing but their own righteousness menstrual rags to God. Sanctification will result as a part of this acceptance, but this acceptance is not conditioned on sanctification. You got the order backwards.

I'll take this piece of sophistry to mean that "no, Christ doesn't require repentance" as a requirement for salvation.

Yes. Just like I expect a ball to fall to the ground when I throw it into the sky. It's inevitable, but the fact that gravity exists is independent (and pre-exists) the tossing of the ball.

Again, I'll take that answer as another vestige of your anti-reformed and unbiblical position that says repentance is NOT a requirement for salvation.  The rich young ruler should have just told Christ to accept him just like he is, lol.

And this growth is, likewise, a gift. It is His grace that justifies us, His grace that sanctifies us, and His grace that will ultimately glorify us.

Reformed types, <ahem> which you claim to be, like J I Packer and many more, understand the syncretistic nature of a believer's cooperation with the Spirit in sanctification.  Instead of Paul telling the Corinthians and Ephesians that such sins shouldn't be named among them I guess he should have taken theological notes from you POMOs and said "don't sweat it, these things are a gift, part of who you are and how God made you".

Homosexuals are sinners by the fact of their being homosexual...

I don't know what your response is supposed to mean or how it rebuts my statement, but the bottom line is that you are apparently of the opinion that we tell liars that they indeed will not have to worry about that part in the lake of fire that brother John warns them about, so they ought to keep up the fibs.

Yes...you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

With all the seriousness I can possibly convey, I'm incredibly hurt, will lose sleep, and thinking about renouncing not only my adult SS class but my calling to preach the gospel. 


8)

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I'll take this piece of sophistry to mean that "no, Christ doesn't require repentance" as a requirement for salvation.[/quote]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Again, I'll take that answer as another vestige of your anti-reformed and unbiblical position that says repentance is NOT a requirement for salvation.  The rich young ruler should have just told Christ to accept him just like he is, lol.[/quote]

We've had this conversation many times before. There is one requirement for salvation: Jesus.

Just so you understand what all is required for salvation, let me repeat it: Jesus.

Not Jesus plus repentance. Not our knowledge of Jesus. Not preaching plus Jesus. Not Jesus plus good works. Not Jesus plus baptism. Jesus. Period.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

And this growth is, likewise, a gift. It is His grace that justifies us, His grace that sanctifies us, and His grace that will ultimately glorify us.

Reformed types, <ahem> which you claim to be, like J I Packer and many more, understand the syncretistic nature of a believer's cooperation with the Spirit in sanctification.  Instead of Paul telling the Corinthians and Ephesians that such sins shouldn't be named among them I guess he should have taken theological notes from you POMOs and said "don't sweat it, these things are a gift, part of who you are and how God made you". [/quote]

I'm fully aware of the nature of God's will and man's will regarding sanctification. I'm also fully aware of the fact that we can do nothing except through the Spirit by Christ. You've already shown you don't understand Paul...repeatedly. Apparently, you keep thinking you have something to offer. Here is what you have to offer: nothing. Again, the answer is Jesus and that's it.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Homosexuals are not sinners by the fact of their being homosexual...

I don't know what your response is supposed to mean or how it rebuts my statement, but the bottom line is that you are apparently of the opinion that we tell liars that they indeed will not have to worry about that part in the lake of fire that brother John warns them about, so they ought to keep up the fibs.[/quote]

Corrected.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Yes...you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

With all the seriousness I can possibly convey, I'm incredibly hurt, will lose sleep, and thinking about renouncing not only my adult SS class but my calling to preach the gospel. 

8)
[/quote]

I guess you'd rather remain ignorant (and judgmental) than bother to ask someone what they mean.

And, regarding your "calling" to preach the gospel, you openly reject major portions of it, but I'm thankful for the teaching you do on the portions you do understand.

 

[Castor Muscular]

We've had this conversation many times before. There is one requirement for salvation: Jesus.

Just so you understand what all is required for salvation, let me repeat it: Jesus.

Not Jesus plus repentance. Not our knowledge of Jesus. Not preaching plus Jesus. Not Jesus plus good works. Not Jesus plus baptism. Jesus. Period.

Amen.  And thank you, Lord Jesus. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

We've had this conversation many times before. There is one requirement for salvation: Jesus.

Just so you understand what all is required for salvation, let me repeat it: Jesus.

Not Jesus plus repentance. Not our knowledge of Jesus. Not preaching plus Jesus. Not Jesus plus good works. Not Jesus plus baptism. Jesus. Period.

More obfuscation by you.

Does Jesus require and supply repentance in this salvation process?  If so, then does he require it from all sin, or just some convenient ones?

I'm fully aware of the nature of God's will and man's will regarding sanctification. I'm also fully aware of the fact that we can do nothing except through the Spirit by Christ. You've already shown you don't understand Paul...repeatedly. Apparently, you keep thinking you have something to offer. Here is what you have to offer: nothing. Again, the answer is Jesus and that's it.

The even sadder truth is that you apparently teach a greasy cheap grace that says Jesus doesn't mind if gay people hold on to their gift of gayness.

Yeah, if being less ignorant means having to adopt those whacked out unbiblical views of salvation, repentance, and sanctification, then I'll just believe the Bible instead of your "education".

 

[rsc2a]

We've had this conversation many times before. There is one requirement for salvation: Jesus.

Just so you understand what all is required for salvation, let me repeat it: Jesus.

Not Jesus plus repentance. Not our knowledge of Jesus. Not preaching plus Jesus. Not Jesus plus good works. Not Jesus plus baptism. Jesus. Period.

More obfuscation by you.

Does Jesus require and supply repentance in this salvation process?  If so, then does he require it from all sin, or just some convenient ones?

Actually, I was quite clear. I guess I need to say it again.

Jesus saves. That is the only requirement.

Does He supply repentance? That is a completely different question, and yes, repentance (among other things) would something He (through the Spirit) grants to someone that He has saved.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

I'm fully aware of the nature of God's will and man's will regarding sanctification. I'm also fully aware of the fact that we can do nothing except through the Spirit by Christ. You've already shown you don't understand Paul...repeatedly. Apparently, you keep thinking you have something to offer. Here is what you have to offer: nothing. Again, the answer is Jesus and that's it.

The even sadder truth is that you apparently teach a greasy cheap grace that says Jesus doesn't mind if gay people hold on to their gift of gayness.[/quote]

I teach a very expensive grace, a grace that you don't seem to understand. A grace that requires nothing from us because we have nothing to offer. And that makes it very expensive indeed.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yeah, if being less ignorant means having to adopt those whacked out unbiblical views of salvation, repentance, and sanctification, then I'll just believe the Bible instead of your "education".[/quote]

Ok...

In this thread alone, you have denied (either implicitly or explicitly) three of the five solas. You teach heresy (regarding the Church Universal). You flirt with (and often wholly embrace) gnosticism. You seem to have no understanding of what "the world" is. (After all, you define it by music style and choice of beverage.) You reject Christus victor as a valid atonement model because, after all, those "liberals and Orthodox folks" teach it.

...but I'm the one who doesn't understand Scripture? (Yet I will fully and readily acknowledge that I definitely haven't got "it" all figured out.) You might want to look at which views are more Biblical again.