Calling all pastors!

[Frag]

CU, my father started a church in 1973, pastored it for 8 years, then left -- at God's direction -- to pastor elsewhere.

The church he started was running almost 300 when he resigned.  The church he left for -- didn't exist till he got there!  He left to start a church in a depressed, needy area. 

So your STUPID argument that greed and promotion prompts pastors to move is MORONIC.

Good pastor friend of mine was recently directed by God to leave a prosperous church in Penn. to start a church -- in RUSSIA. 

Don't get me wrong -- I wouldn't look down on a pastor that moved from a smaller work to a larger work -- if God directed him.  Men of God MUST go wherever God directs them.  Course, you wouldn't understand that.

CU, the people who are the most critical about pastors (IMHO and in my personal experience) are men who were either called, and are not doing what they were called to do -- or men who were not called, and are still bitter about it! 

Just saying....check the beam in your eye. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

So a church starts in God's will.  Calls a pastor in God's will.  Shuts down in God's will.

But if a pastor goes to one church in God's will he cannot go to another church, because you cannot find an example in the scriptures.

Where is the example in scriptures that show a church shutting down?


I don't doubt that there are hirelings in the ministry.  I don't doubt there are servants of God in the ministry.  I also don't doubt that each will answer to God for their choices of what they believe is God's leading.  Since they will face God, I will keep my focus on Christ.

Just my .02 cents

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]1. John was an apostle. Not a pastor.[/quote]

He was both. (Just like Peter.)

[quote author=christundivided]2. How about 1st century church culture? Too radical for you?[/quote]

Can you really not see the difference in these two times? You are trying to compare a time period when many people never went farther than 100 miles from their birthplace and entire extended families lived together with modern America. And the examples I just used are extremely relevant since we are discussing mobility of individuals.

 

[christundivided]

So a church starts in God's will.  Calls a pastor in God's will.  Shuts down in God's will.

But if a pastor goes to one church in God's will he cannot go to another church, because you cannot find an example in the scriptures.

Where is the example in scriptures that show a church shutting down?


I don't doubt that there are hirelings in the ministry.  I don't doubt there are servants of God in the ministry.  I also don't doubt that each will answer to God for their choices of what they believe is God's leading.  Since they will face God, I will keep my focus on Christ.

Just my .02 cents

The truth of the matter is.... the church should have never been started. It was started from a fracture that never should have happened. Is that enough information for you? Do you see any fractured churches in the Scriptures? Were they commanded to split and go about their separate ways?

I'm glad you admit hireling exist. All I've seen so far is most people just take a man's word at face value. You want me to believe we are suppose to just wait till Judgement to see it was true or not. Is this the way it should be? Is it it sin to question such things?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]1. John was an apostle. Not a pastor.

He was both. (Just like Peter.)

[quote author=christundivided]2. How about 1st century church culture? Too radical for you?[/quote]

Can you really not see the difference in these two times? You are trying to compare a time period when many people never went farther than 100 miles from their birthplace and entire extended families lived together with modern America. And the examples I just used are extremely relevant since we are discussing mobility of individuals.
[/quote]

Its sad that you say times are different and you then appeal to the example of an apostle to make your point.

Which is it? Are times so different that we can not possibly use the first century church....as an example of proper conduct?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]1. John was an apostle. Not a pastor.

He was both. (Just like Peter.)

[quote author=christundivided]2. How about 1st century church culture? Too radical for you?

Can you really not see the difference in these two times? You are trying to compare a time period when many people never went farther than 100 miles from their birthplace and entire extended families lived together with modern America. And the examples I just used are extremely relevant since we are discussing mobility of individuals.
[/quote]

Its sad that you say times are different and you then appeal to the example of an apostle to make your point.[/quote]

Let's follow the timeline:

1 - You said there is never any justification for a pastor leaving a church.
2 - I said you were wrong.
3 - You said I had no Biblical examples where it happened.
4 - I said the Apostle John. (i.e. You were wrong.)
5 - You said John was not a pastor.
6 - I said you were wrong.
7 - You are now questioning why I am using John as an example to make my point.
8 - I am using John because you specifically asked for Biblical examples. It was on your request, not my initial reasoning. (i.e. You are wrong.)

[quote author=christundivided]Which is it? Are times so different that we can not possibly use the first century church....as an example of proper conduct?[/quote]

Yes...we can use the early church as an example. We also need to understand the difference in prescriptive and descriptive text and the difference in principle and practice.

(And, on this particular topic, absolutely nothing is said. There are Biblical (and early historical) examples where pastors left though so you are again wrong.)

 

[christundivided]

CU, my father started a church in 1973, pastored it for 8 years, then left -- at God's direction -- to pastor elsewhere.

The church he started was running almost 300 when he resigned.  The church he left for -- didn't exist till he got there!  He left to start a church in a depressed, needy area. 

So your STUPID argument that greed and promotion prompts pastors to move is MORONIC.

Sure greed and promotion influence pastors to change churches. Happens all the time. It might not have happened to your father but don't pretend it doesn't happen.

Good pastor friend of mine was recently directed by God to leave a prosperous church in Penn. to start a church -- in RUSSIA. 

Don't get me wrong -- I wouldn't look down on a pastor that moved from a smaller work to a larger work -- if God directed him.  Men of God MUST go wherever God directs them.  Course, you wouldn't understand that.

Sure I understand. I've seen people move to a foreign field of service and THEN realize they had made a mistake. Don't pretend such doesn't exist or isn't a possibility. You have to admit the culture that exists in most churches today, demands that people do BIG things to find approval among their peers. Many young "preachers" today are so ambitious that they fail to properly judge the leading of the Holy Spirit. Being in God's will is too often mistaken for the ambitious self will of the individual. In many ways they are just like the native Israelites Paul talked about it Romans 10.

Rom 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

CU, the people who are the most critical about pastors (IMHO and in my personal experience) are men who were either called, and are not doing what they were called to do -- or men who were not called, and are still bitter about it! 

Well... your HO doesn't apply in this case. There is nothing wrong with questioning anyone's actions. A man's actions should stand up to scrutiny. Even the actions of any pastor. Just saying its "God's will" doesn't cut it.

Just saying....check the beam in your eye.

I'm not trying to remove a beam from someone's eye. Men will do what they want to do. I'm just saying its okay to question it. Even challenge it. Even reject the action.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]1. John was an apostle. Not a pastor.

He was both. (Just like Peter.)

[quote author=christundivided]2. How about 1st century church culture? Too radical for you?

Can you really not see the difference in these two times? You are trying to compare a time period when many people never went farther than 100 miles from their birthplace and entire extended families lived together with modern America. And the examples I just used are extremely relevant since we are discussing mobility of individuals.

Its sad that you say times are different and you then appeal to the example of an apostle to make your point.[/quote]

Let's follow the timeline:

1 - You said there is never any justification for a pastor leaving a church.
2 - I said you were wrong.
3 - You said I had no Biblical examples where it happened.
4 - I said the Apostle John. (i.e. You were wrong.)
5 - You said John was not a pastor.
6 - I said you were wrong.
7 - You are now questioning why I am using John as an example to make my point.
8 - I am using John because you specifically asked for Biblical examples. It was on your request, not my initial reasoning. (i.e. You are wrong.)

[quote author=christundivided]Which is it? Are times so different that we can not possibly use the first century church....as an example of proper conduct?[/quote]

Yes...we can use the early church as an example. We also need to understand the difference in prescriptive and descriptive text and the difference in principle and practice.

(And, on this particular topic, absolutely nothing is said. There are Biblical (and early historical) examples where pastors left though so you are again wrong.)
[/quote]

NO. APOSTLES ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF PASTORS. As much as they like to think they are.... Such is not the case. There are no more apostles. Don't pretend they are. The rank and order of the NT church is important. It was defined by God Himself. Apostles are apostles. Their rank and authority do not extend to anyone else.

I pointed out you're being hypocritical by claiming you can't use a first century "ROMAN" culture as an example today and then you appeal to a 1st century example of an apostle. Just because I asked for example doesn't mean you have to contradict your own requirement of not taking a 1st century example as being applicable today. Keep your arguments straight.

I never said there wasn't a valid reason for leaving. I said that that first century church examples indicate that pastors served for life. If the church rejected them, YES. They have a reason. If the church decided NOT TO FOLLOW GOD. Yes. They have a valid reason. If the pastor disqualifies himself. He has a valid reason. BUT, he shouldn't leave to go pastor another church. He is still disqualified.

I simply see no valid reason for a pastor to leave a local church thriving church, doing God's will, to go "pastor" somewhere else. You then try to present "changing demographics" as a valid reason. As if the "pastor" couldn't change with the demographics. You're being silly. Do I believe be an outside chance that God would really behind such an action. Maybe. Do I believe there is more than an outside chance that ambition, and self will caused such an action? YES. Do I believe that promotion and increased wages played could possibly play a role. Yes. I've seen it first hand. I know an preacher that I could name and probably some of you would know him. He started a church because of "God's will". No one questioned him. I mean how dare someone question "God's will". He then proceeded to base his pay on a percentage of the what the church took in offerings. No surprise that he would preach about "robbing" God almost every service. It wasn't too long until the church fractured over foolish actions and doesn't even exist today. It went from hundreds to NONE. MANY people were hurt. Scarred. The "preacher" just moved on to other things. No one ever questioned if the man made a mistake to start with. That he had HIS way. Instead of God's way.

Don't pretend it doesn't happen. It happens all the time. Probably more times than not. You can't tell me that God is pleased with hundreds of thousands of churches across this country. All doing their own thing. Don't tell me they are doing "God's will". They're not. Are some? Sure. Some. I can't see a majority. Do you?

 

[Frag]

New ministry for you!

Take out an ad in several religious periodicals.  Make sure to include your contact info. 

Your ad could look something like this:




Are You a Pastor Thinking of Changing Churches?

Call ME!  God has given me unique discernment.

I will question it, challenge it, and if necessary REJECT it!

Cause that is what I do -- determine God's will for others.

Call 1-800-USED2BE

 

[Sherryh]

I laughed out loud..............

 

[christundivided]

New ministry for you!

Take out an ad in several religious periodicals.  Make sure to include your contact info. 

Your ad could look something like this:




Are You a Pastor Thinking of Changing Churches?

Call ME!  God has given me unique discernment.

I will question it, challenge it, and if necessary REJECT it!

Cause that is what I do -- determine God's will for others.

Call 1-800-USED2BE

Are you questioning God's will for me? How dare you!!!

Why would you condemn such in me and then do it yourself?

 

[christundivided]

I laughed out loud..............

I'm glad you find hypocrisy FUNNY. Why do you laugh at Frag doing exactly what he is condemning in me?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]NO. APOSTLES ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF PASTORS. As much as they like to think they are.... Such is not the case. There are no more apostles. Don't pretend they are. The rank and order of the NT church is important. It was defined by God Himself. Apostles are apostles. Their rank and authority do not extend to anyone else. [/quote]

The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth... (2 John 1:1 ESV)

So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder...(1 Peter 5:1 ESV)

(Hint: Elders are pastors.)

[quote author=christundivided]I pointed out you're being hypocritical by claiming you can't use a first century "ROMAN" culture as an example today and then you appeal to a 1st century example of an apostle. Just because I asked for example doesn't mean you have to contradict your own requirement of not taking a 1st century example as being applicable today. Keep your arguments straight. [/quote]

So you don't like that I think your requirement was inapplicable or you don't like that, even if your requirement was applicable, it could still be met?

[quote author=christundivided]I never said there wasn't a valid reason for leaving. I said that that first century church examples indicate that pastors served for life.[/quote]

It doesn't indicate anything.

[quote author=christundivided]If the church rejected them, YES. They have a reason. If the church decided NOT TO FOLLOW GOD. Yes. They have a valid reason. If the pastor disqualifies himself. He has a valid reason. BUT, he shouldn't leave to go pastor another church. He is still disqualified. [/quote]

So based on your poor reasoning, we should accept your poor conclusion?

[quote author=christundivided]I simply see no valid reason for a pastor to leave a local church thriving church, doing God's will, to go "pastor" somewhere else.[/quote]

Blind people don't see trees, but they still exist.

[quote author=christundivided]You then try to present "changing demographics" as a valid reason. As if the "pastor" couldn't change with the demographics. You're being silly.[/quote]

Yes...because a 68-yr old politically-conservative single-language white guy is going to be able to relate well to a young inner-city congregation that doesn't speak English.  :

[quote author=christundivided]Do I believe be an outside chance that God would really behind such an action. Maybe. Do I believe there is more than an outside chance that ambition, and self will caused such an action? YES. Do I believe that promotion and increased wages played could possibly play a role. Yes. I've seen it first hand. I know an preacher that I could name and probably some of you would know him. He started a church because of "God's will". No one questioned him. I mean how dare someone question "God's will". He then proceeded to base his pay on a percentage of the what the church took in offerings. No surprise that he would preach about "robbing" God almost every service. It wasn't too long until the church fractured over foolish actions and doesn't even exist today. It went from hundreds to NONE. MANY people were hurt. Scarred. The "preacher" just moved on to other things. No one ever questioned if the man made a mistake to start with. That he had HIS way. Instead of God's way. [/quote]

So now you are able to judge the heart of men? And, not only that, but judge the heart of men on your experiences with one man?

[quote author=christundivided]Don't pretend it doesn't happen. It happens all the time. Probably more times than not. You can't tell me that God is pleased with hundreds of thousands of churches across this country. All doing their own thing. Don't tell me they are doing "God's will". They're not. Are some? Sure. Some. I can't see a majority. Do you?[/quote]

I try not to concern myself with the dirty dishes in my neighbor's sink. I have enough to do trying to clean out my basement while keeping dirty dishes out of my own sink.

 

[Mathew Ward]

So a church starts in God's will.  Calls a pastor in God's will.  Shuts down in God's will.

But if a pastor goes to one church in God's will he cannot go to another church, because you cannot find an example in the scriptures.

Where is the example in scriptures that show a church shutting down?


I don't doubt that there are hirelings in the ministry.  I don't doubt there are servants of God in the ministry.  I also don't doubt that each will answer to God for their choices of what they believe is God's leading.  Since they will face God, I will keep my focus on Christ.

Just my .02 cents

The truth of the matter is.... the church should have never been started. It was started from a fracture that never should have happened. Is that enough information for you? Do you see any fractured churches in the Scriptures? Were they commanded to split and go about their separate ways?

I'm glad you admit hireling exist. All I've seen so far is most people just take a man's word at face value. You want me to believe we are suppose to just wait till Judgement to see it was true or not. Is this the way it should be? Is it it sin to question such things?

Well Paul and Barnabus split over John Mark who became valuable to Paul later in his ministry.

If what John Wilkerson is doing bothers you so much, you should go meet him face to face and have him explain to you what he is doing.  But if not then what purpose are the questions?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:12-14 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

 

[Frag]

New ministry for you!

Take out an ad in several religious periodicals.  Make sure to include your contact info. 

Your ad could look something like this:




Are You a Pastor Thinking of Changing Churches?

Call ME!  God has given me unique discernment.

I will question it, challenge it, and if necessary REJECT it!

Cause that is what I do -- determine God's will for others.

Call 1-800-USED2BE

Are you questioning God's will for me? How dare you!!!

Why would you condemn such in me and then do it yourself?

A bold lavender response!!!  Scary....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I laughed out loud..............

I'm glad you find hypocrisy FUNNY. Why do you laugh at Frag doing exactly what he is condemning in me?

Look, we're are laughing at YOU!
You are hypocritical in your judgment.
Your are judgemental in your hypocrisy.
You are ignorant of basic Bible facts!
You are clueless when it comes to Pastors and Pastoring!
You have no idea about church polity!

You are funny....ha...ha...and funny i.e. odd.....

You offer advice and criticism of a Pastor and a church...yet your experience is Pastoring a church that closed or was buried because it died a merciful death....under your watchful, all knowing leadership!

Somebody say Bwaaaaaaaaaaaah!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

New ministry for you!

Take out an ad in several religious periodicals.  Make sure to include your contact info. 

Your ad could look something like this:




Are You a Pastor Thinking of Changing Churches?

Call ME!  God has given me unique discernment.

I will question it, challenge it, and if necessary REJECT it!

Cause that is what I do -- determine God's will for others.

Call 1-800-USED2BE

Are you questioning God's will for me? How dare you!!!

Why would you condemn such in me and then do it yourself?

Thank you...for admitting your hypocrisy!
That's a start.

And, you should find a dictionary and look up hyperbole and sarcasm!

 

[christundivided]

So a church starts in God's will.  Calls a pastor in God's will.  Shuts down in God's will.

But if a pastor goes to one church in God's will he cannot go to another church, because you cannot find an example in the scriptures.

Where is the example in scriptures that show a church shutting down?


I don't doubt that there are hirelings in the ministry.  I don't doubt there are servants of God in the ministry.  I also don't doubt that each will answer to God for their choices of what they believe is God's leading.  Since they will face God, I will keep my focus on Christ.

Just my .02 cents

The truth of the matter is.... the church should have never been started. It was started from a fracture that never should have happened. Is that enough information for you? Do you see any fractured churches in the Scriptures? Were they commanded to split and go about their separate ways?

I'm glad you admit hireling exist. All I've seen so far is most people just take a man's word at face value. You want me to believe we are suppose to just wait till Judgement to see it was true or not. Is this the way it should be? Is it it sin to question such things?

Well Paul and Barnabus split over John Mark who became valuable to Paul later in his ministry.

If what John Wilkerson is doing bothers you so much, you should go meet him face to face and have him explain to you what he is doing.  But if not then what purpose are the questions?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:12-14 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

LOL. It always comes down to this doesn't it. If anyone questions the actions of a "pastor"... they're branded a "gossiper" a person who "judges" other people. Yet, these same pastors will question anyone and anything they want to question. After all....they're just "standing against sin". Don't you just love it. What a double standard.

Are you seriously suggesting that churches should split just like Paul and Barnabas did? One of them was right and the other was wrong. Do we hear anymore from Barnabas? You don't even know that the Mark mentioned in 2 Timothy is the same John Mark you think he is...

 

[christundivided]

I laughed out loud..............

I'm glad you find hypocrisy FUNNY. Why do you laugh at Frag doing exactly what he is condemning in me?

Look, we're are laughing at YOU!
You are hypocritical in your judgment.
Your are judgemental in your hypocrisy.
You are ignorant of basic Bible facts!
You are clueless when it comes to Pastors and Pastoring!
You have no idea about church polity!

You are funny....ha...ha...and funny i.e. odd.....

You offer advice and criticism of a Pastor and a church...yet your experience is Pastoring a church that closed or was buried because it died a merciful death....under your watchful, all knowing leadership!

Somebody say Bwaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Are you wounded? Are you feeling a little hurt? Have you said any prayers recently or are you just so use to doing it YOUR way? You don't like when someone questions the "pastor" do you? It gets under your skin doesn't it. Makes you feel a little comfortable to know there are actually people out there that know your dirty little methods. You know the ones you pass off as "God's will". It really must hurt.

If I'm so silly and so irrelevant... Then ignore me. You've spent a lot of time to bash me. You've spent a lot of time writing "Bwaaaaaaaaaaaah!"......

All that work for someone that's "funny i.e. odd" by your own definition..... Hummm. I'm not buying what you're selling.

 

[christundivided]

New ministry for you!

Take out an ad in several religious periodicals.  Make sure to include your contact info. 

Your ad could look something like this:




Are You a Pastor Thinking of Changing Churches?

Call ME!  God has given me unique discernment.

I will question it, challenge it, and if necessary REJECT it!

Cause that is what I do -- determine God's will for others.

Call 1-800-USED2BE

Are you questioning God's will for me? How dare you!!!

Why would you condemn such in me and then do it yourself?

Thank you...for admitting your hypocrisy!
That's a start.

And, you should find a dictionary and look up hyperbole and sarcasm!

I made a logical argument full of sarcasm. Maybe you shouldn't prefer someone "over another". Do you remember were that is found in your Bible? You probably just ignore it like you do so many other places. 30 years in the ministry has made you a legend.... in your own mind.