lnf said:
I asked prophet my question because I truly don't understand the thought process behind the statements. But I would like to.
If I understand correctly, both prophet and christundivided believe that if a pastor has truly been called of God to pastor a church, it's a lifetime commitment to stay in that one church, and if a pastor leaves a church, either sin or a false call is the underlying reason. Sherryh does not believe that, and sees nothing wrong with a pastor leaving one church to take another.
Am I correct so far?
As for my own thinking on the matter, no, I cannot give a biblical reason for either position. Frankly, I haven't given it much thought before, but I find the subject fascinating.
Let me throw this into the mix...is there a difference when a newly ordained pastor takes an associate position at a church and then moves on to take a senior position at a different church? Would his "call" come into question if he did that? Should he stay where he is at and wait for the senior pastorate to open up?
Perhaps my problem is that I don't have a good grasp on what it means to be "called".
Let me throw this into the mix...is there a difference when a newly ordained pastor takes an associate position at a church and then moves on to take a senior position at a different church? Would his "call" come into question if he did that? Should he stay where he is at and wait for the senior pastorate to open up?
First, I'll say there are entirely too many so called "associate pastors". The title really has been added over the years to establish a rank in some churches that should not exist. There are many ways to "help" a pastor. None of these require a "title" that indicates a "pastor" in waiting. I see no "call" to be an "associate pastor". None.
I don't think you're alone in your inability to grasp the application of being "called" when it comes to pastoring a church. The sad reality is that "pastoring" has really become "BIG BUSINESS".
Let's admit it. Most decisions, when it comes to selecting a "pastor", are based on operating as "business". Yes, they have to be able to preach, but when you get past this.... there really isn't many things "spiritual" used to "judge" a candidate for the "office".
The only biblical examples given for "pastors/bishops" are found in the latter parts of the New Testament. The apostles began to slow fade off the scene. You'll find Paul giving commands for Timothy and Titus to appoint "elders" and "officers" in the cities where churches had been established. I have no doubt those appointments were for LIFE or till "sin" might disqualify them. There is absolutely no reason to think otherwise. We can safely establish that Timothy and Titus did a good job in choosing those to serve. They recognized "gifted" men and set them over local congregations. No doubt there were instances in which more than one man was qualified to serve in each of the local congregations. Someone "won" out when it came to being the leader. Yet, we can rely on the choices of Timothy and Titus. Soon after churches began to "fracture" and "split" into separate establishment based on a variety of reasons. These fractures, created many problems. Problems that still exist today.
Many see this as an example of the autonomy of each individual local church. I do to some degree myself. A form of "self rule" if you would. Yet, we have to recognize its abuse. Not every church is a church that God has established. Not every church is "lead" by the "Holy Ghost". If they are..... then you certainly have one "fractured" representation of God's divine action. Don't feel hostile towards me for seeing such. Its real. Its tangible. I didn't do it.... Yet, it clearly exists.
The question then remains... how do we establish that any church is actually being lead by "God" or are simply the result of the choices of selfish men? The choices of individuals to "compete" in any local area. I gave up taking the words of any man at "face value" a long time ago. Just because someone says its "God's will" doesn't cut it with me. Prove it.
I can honestly say that I have meet very few men in my life, that I felt, were not simply in the ministry for whatever they could get out of it. Their actions prove it. I know men that can preach like you wouldn't believe. Make you cry. Make you laugh. Make you realize your position in Christ. Good edifying men. Yet, they are horrible when it comes to being a "pastor". In turn, I serious doubt their "call" to be a pastor. I have one particular man in mind. I wouldn't call his name because there are plenty more where he came from.... He'll pastor for a few years. Just long enough to get a good established source of income. He'll then gradually start preaching over the country. Revival after revival. When he starts spending more time doing this instead of actually "pastoring", the church will start questioning his actions. He'll then start "looking" for somewhere else to "pastor" or he will quit altogether to begin "evangelizing" again. He'll get tired of the life of an "evangelist". He'll get tired of struggling for money. He'll then find another church he is "called" to pastor. It happened maybe a dozen times since I've known him. He's a great preacher but I have no doubt he's not "called" to be a pastor. He is too ambitious. He's not content with being a pastor.
You constantly see such. Pastor moving on to "bigger" and "better" things... All in the name of "God's will". "Pastors who get "served" while pretending to "serve" others. Now.... they will serve to some degree but not without being served themselves. Its really more about the "job" than it will ever be about the "call". If its about the "job" then make it about the "job". Don't make it about the "call". If its about the "call" then don't make it about the job.
Then, you have those pastors who have angered the "WRONG" people within the church. They don't have to sin openly... They just chose to do something....someone didn't like. Maybe it was wrong. Maybe it was right. Either way, it cause a division. The next thing you know..... the "hand writing on the wall" is clearly seen. That pastor begins looking for another "fold". Another "job". They call their friends that are "pastors" themselves or their "evangelist" friends to find out if they know of any churches looking for a "pastor". Happens all the time. More than you know. Most "pastors" are chosen because of relationships than because of the "call". Call it "networking". Their livelihood is threatened. They need a replacement.
Now to some degree. I can see their need. Men that left jobs to "pastor". Men that haven't done anything else for many years. They have experience and can draw a good salary as a pastor somewhere instead of having to rejoin the "work force" and start over again. I understand and I can't fault them to some degree. For this reason, and many others, I honestly believe that it is better for a "pastor" to work a secular job if its possible. (and it is more possible than most "pastors" let on).
Yet, you must see that decisions are being made NOT on what God wants but on whatever need seems to arise. Lets not pretend its anything else. Often these choices are bad and I don't believe that "God" is involved in the vast majority of them. Its really not about the "call" of God anymore. Its about success and ambition.
Sure there are exceptions. I just can't help but question a decision in which a long time pastor of a successful church..... moves "up" in the ranks.
