1 Cor 8: A misunderstood, hand grenade text

[FSSL]

Does anyone really know what time it is
Does anyone really care
If so I can't imagine why
We've all got time enough to cry

Now, everyone syncretize their watches. 

LOL!

 

[FSSL]

Therefore, identifying the prevalent idolatries is important.  Syncretization is not a Biblical option.

Then identify them if it is that important.

 

[FSSL]

Therefore, identifying the prevalent idolatries is important.  Syncretization is not a Biblical option.

Then identify them if it is that important.

Yes, RSC2A. We see by Anchor's insistence that this is "important to identify," contrasted with his non-identification, that his point was just a ruse...

The IFB hand grenade, once again, explodes and gets lemon meringue all over everyone! It makes a mess, splattering everywhere, while not making much of an impact.

 

[Anchor]

Let's talk about identifying idolatry.  That way we can all come to the same biblical conclusion, and it not be a matter of one's opinion vs. another.

Definitions

Idolatry is any form of false worship.

Idols are the "instruments and inventions of idolatry."  Idolatry produces idols.  Idols can direct one into idolatry, but do not produce idolatry.

Pollutions of idols (mainly identified as "meat" in much of the NT [Acts 15; I Cor. 6-10; Rev. 2]) are those morally neutral actions and objects that purposefully link the common cultural practices of society with the pervasive idolatry eventually to the level of everyday commerce and custom.  They are common items of culture that the idolatry usurps and gives meaning. Its inclusion in common culture does not make it any less idolatrous or meaningful.

A key identifier of cultural idolatry will be sexual immorality. Idolatry and immorality are so closely identified with each other throughout Scripture that they may well be considered conjoined twins.  While it may be possible that some specific idolatries not  immediately result in sexual immorality, a sexually immoral society will always be reflective of a pervasive idolatry within that culture.  If a portion of a specific culture promotes immorality as its end game its basis is idolatry.

 

[rsc2a]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

 

[Anchor]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page. 

 

[rsc2a]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

Earlier...

[quote author=rsc2a]So far, all I've seen is that you refuse to answer questions that people ask you, so why should I bother?
[/quote]

...now...

You are presupposing entire arguments in order to be "fair". Why should I except your final answer (if you ever decide to answer the question that's been posed multiple times by multiple people) to be any more "fair"?

 

[FSSL]

Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

I do realize that the idolatry, in the temples, involved prostitution and that trade has turned sex into idolatry. Yet, Paul also said, "Money is a root of all kinds of evil."

So, my question is, "Is it necessary to identify the PREVALENT idolatries?" If you want to identify an object as idolatrous, then, I see why you want to identify the prevalent ones.

Perhaps we are better off realizing that even canned grapes* can be an idol and these things are to be handled on an individual basis.











*We had a hoarder in our church who gave me canned grapes. We went to his house, to visit, and you could not walk through it, except for an aisle. His idol was spoiled canned goods throughout his house, among feces, newspapers and a myriad other things.

 

[Anchor]

Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

I do realize that the idolatry, in the temples, involved prostitution and that trade has turned sex into idolatry. Yet, Paul also said, "Money is a root of all kinds of evil."

So, my question is, "Is it necessary to identify the PREVALENT idolatries?" If you want to identify an object as idolatrous, then, I see why you want to identify the prevalent ones.

Perhaps we are better off realizing that even canned grapes* can be an idol and these things are to be handled on an individual basis.











*We had a hoarder in our church who gave me canned grapes. We went to his house, to visit, and you could not walk through it, except for an aisle. His idol was spoiled canned goods throughout his house, among feces, newspapers and a myriad other things.

You are mixing two separate things: personal idolatry and culture defining idolatry.

"Covetousness, which is idolatry..." is a very real scriptural example of personal idolatry.

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians..." is an example of culture defining idolatry.  It is to this idolatry that the stipulations of Acts 15, Acts 21, I Cor. 8-10, and Rev. 2 are addressed. 

While your illustration of a hoarder is probably of one whose life is defined by a very specific idolatry (and, generally speaking, addictions are idolatry) eating a can of grapes makes no identity in the church with idolatry or syncretizes the church into the idolatry that is culturally recognized and accepted.  Apples and oranges, if I may continue with the fruit metaphor.

 

[FSSL]

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians..." is an example of culture defining idolatry.  It is to this idolatry that the stipulations of Acts 15, Acts 21, I Cor. 8-10, and Rev. 2 are addressed.

So, what modern-day equivalent do we have?

 

[rsc2a]

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians..." is an example of culture defining idolatry.  It is to this idolatry that the stipulations of Acts 15, Acts 21, I Cor. 8-10, and Rev. 2 are addressed.

So, what modern-day equivalent do we have?

He hasn't answered the question!?!? 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

I don't think he's being snarky as much as simply being himself.
He also deflects when the facts aren't on his side.

It's his MO!

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=FSSL]
So, what modern-day equivalent do we have?
[/quote]

Idol Worship

 

[rsc2a]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

I don't think he's being snarky as much as simply being himself.
He also deflects when the facts aren't on his side expects people he is debating with to be able to defend their positions while answering very simple questions.

It's his MO!

I fixed it for you.

Also...you might want to go back to that other thread and answer the question instead of dodging. It's really a very straightforward question.

 

[FSSL]

He hasn't answered the question!?!? 

Questions are pernicious things 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

I don't think he's being snarky as much as simply being himself.
He also deflects when the facts aren't on his side expects people he is debating with to be able to defend their positions while answering very simple questions.

It's his MO!

I fixed it for you.

Also...you might want to go back to that other thread and answer the question instead of dodging. It's really a very straightforward question.

I'm probably more in agreement with you on this OP...but your MO remains the same....

 

[Anchor]

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians..." is an example of culture defining idolatry.  It is to this idolatry that the stipulations of Acts 15, Acts 21, I Cor. 8-10, and Rev. 2 are addressed.

So, what modern-day equivalent do we have?

In various and sundry places around the world that answer is relatively easy.  India is prevalently Hindu; Saudi Arabia is prevalently Muslim; Poland and most of South America is predominantly Catholic; etc.  Not quite as easy for the good old melting pot of the USA.  But the fact is that America is not Christian, and it is not Jewish, so it is predominantly idolatrous.  That we do not have a statue we identify with does not make it any less so.  And it can be determined Scripturally, which is what my little exercise is all about.

It would do no good for this discussion if I made a statement such as "America's prevalent idolatry is XXXXXX".  You or someone else would just say "I don't think so" and that would be that.  But, if we all come to a biblical understanding of worship, idolatry, idols, and pollutions, we will  then know how to identify it in any given culture and make right, biblical decisions accordingly. 

Which brings me back to the definitions I have proposed.  Are these indeed accurate, and do they mesh with what we know from Scripture? 

 

[FSSL]

I agree with the reason why you are unwilling to identify it. Because we are unable to definitively and objectively point to a prevalent idolatry. Why, then, is it important?

 

[Izdaari]

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians..." is an example of culture defining idolatry.  It is to this idolatry that the stipulations of Acts 15, Acts 21, I Cor. 8-10, and Rev. 2 are addressed.

So, what modern-day equivalent do we have?

In various and sundry places around the world that answer is relatively easy.  India is prevalently Hindu; Saudi Arabia is prevalently Muslim; Poland and most of South America is predominantly Catholic; etc.  Not quite as easy for the good old melting pot of the USA.  But the fact is that America is not Christian, and it is not Jewish, so it is predominantly idolatrous.  That we do not have a statue we identify with does not make it any less so.  And it can be determined Scripturally, which is what my little exercise is all about.

It would do no good for this discussion if I made a statement such as "America's prevalent idolatry is XXXXXX".  You or someone else would just say "I don't think so" and that would be that.  But, if we all come to a biblical understanding of worship, idolatry, idols, and pollutions, we will  then know how to identify it in any given culture and make right, biblical decisions accordingly. 

Which brings me back to the definitions I have proposed.  Are these indeed accurate, and do they mesh with what we know from Scripture?

To boil it down to a sentence, the predominant "religion" of America is deistic secular humanism. Though a majority will say they believe in God, most don't know much about Him. And they don't have a very positive image of Christians... and sadly, they have good reason for that. Christians have behaved badly and given our religion a bad name. All this is confirmed by Barna's surveys.

 

[Anchor]

I agree with the reason why you are unwilling to identify it. Because we are unable to definitively and objectively point to a prevalent idolatry. Why, then, is it important?

Wrong conclusion.  We are very able using biblical criteria to make that identification.  It just will not likely be associated to a statue with a name attached.

And the reason to identify it as being important is because it is idolatry, it is the single external influence that has the most detrimental effect on the church, and Scripture commands we flee from it.  A midwestern rube who has never seen the ocean may very well not recognize a Portuguese Man-0-War, but if he plays with it, it will do him significant harm.

Simply because I don't exert the effort to identify a prevalent idolatry based on Scripture does not make it less idolatrous or less harmful to the body of Christ.  That would be the ultimate head in the sand routine.