1 Cor 8: A misunderstood, hand grenade text

[Anchor]

The flip side is if you don't have the same convictions I do on something that is a gray area, you are wrong and sinning under any circumstances.

You are confusing passages.  The scenario you have described is addressed in Romans 14.  The matter of pollutions of idols, and the passages I quoted, are I Cor. 10. 

 

[Anchor]

Overeating... therefore, do not eat meat.

Somehow I don't think you really believe that overeating is the culturally defining idolatry of America; i.e., what we deify is the act of over-indulgence.  What I think is that some people over-eating (by whatever gauge you gauge "enough eating") justifies your passion to drink, and it really doesn't matter to you whether or not alcoholic beverage is a "pollution of idols" in regards to the current idolatry of this culture. 

Now, if you seriously want to identify the current prevalent idolatries--that which our culture deifies and which, in turn, defines our culture--I'd love to continue this discussion and come to Scripture driven conclusions. 

 

[FSSL]

...Somehow I don't think you really believe that overeating is the culturally defining idolatry of America;...

Sure it is. Have you seen the addiction among IFBrs at the last conference? Overeating kills more people every year than drinking. Since Paul told us not to eat meat... why focus only on the wine?

Of course, the above highlights your absurdity here. You are still focused on the object. For you, the object is just wine. For Paul it was the conduct and manner of use of ANY object.

Since you are still stuck on the object, tell us what form of alcohol, today, has been offered in a pagan temple. Has society, today, identified a brand or form of alcohol that is undeniably pagan? That is, if you were to sit at a table with anyone, including an unbeliever, would they raise an eyebrow that you were willing to participate in a demonic ritual by drinking such and such a brand? Hardly.

 

[biscuit1953]

The flip side is if you don't have the same convictions I do on something that is a gray area, you are wrong and sinning under any circumstances.

You are confusing passages.  The scenario you have described is addressed in Romans 14.  The matter of pollutions of idols, and the passages I quoted, are I Cor. 10.

I'm not sure who the one is confusing passages.  1 Corinthians 10:19,20 shows that idols have no spiritual power concerning the Christian.  Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:4,8.  Paul is still talking about eating or not eating based on circumstances of who is present. 

1 Corinthians 28 But if anyone says to you,

 

[Ransom]

Let me reverse the question on you:  What is the dominant idolatry or prevalent idolatries  that define American culture today?

I liked FSSL's question better. Are you going to answer it?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]Of course, if you are trying to compare this to those who die on the highway, then your point is still moot.  Feeding yourself these things doesn't endanger the public the way drunk driving does.  Any other non-comparisons you want to make?

You're right...this is a much slower, more uncomfortable death. If obesity is a cancer, being killed by a drunk driver is a quick bullet to the head.

R2D2 why do you purposely twist my words?  I wasn't comparing the way people die.  I was saying that eating wrong endangers yourself, not the public, which drunk driving plainly does.  You should be a politician as you never answer the question posed.  You always twist things in a dishonest way, imo.  I may make mistakes and mispeak sometimes, but I am not intellectually dishonest.[/quote]

It's not a dishonest way at all. I'm trying to force you to see that the two aren't all that different. As FSSL said,

It is NOT the object, it is the abuse of the object (conduct).

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Anchor]Probably it is time for us to come up with a correct definition of conscience here.  But, in the meantime, exactly what kind of conscience does an unbelieving pagan have that your eating will cause him to stumble?

No. It is time to understand that, with a corrected view of history, your entire argument is invalid. I see no reason to figure out whether or not we have the right flooring type when you are using the wrong set of house plans to begin with.

OK, then just run with the question: how is my eating something identified as sacrificed to a pagan deity going to offend the conscience of (cause to stumble) the unregenerate pagan who is feeding me the meat as a gesture of good will, which is clearly the context of I Cor. 10:28-29?[/quote]

Why would I worry about the flooring in the fourth bedroom when the house plans are wrong? Get the right house plans and you might not even have a fourth bedroom.

 

[Anchor]

The flip side is if you don't have the same convictions I do on something that is a gray area, you are wrong and sinning under any circumstances.

You are confusing passages.  The scenario you have described is addressed in Romans 14.  The matter of pollutions of idols, and the passages I quoted, are I Cor. 10.

I'm not sure who the one is confusing passages.  1 Corinthians 10:19,20 shows that idols have no spiritual power concerning the Christian.  Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:4,8.  Paul is still talking about eating or not eating based on circumstances of who is present. 

1 Corinthians 28 But if anyone says to you,

 

[biscuit1953]

The flip side is if you don't have the same convictions I do on something that is a gray area, you are wrong and sinning under any circumstances.

You are confusing passages.  The scenario you have described is addressed in Romans 14.  The matter of pollutions of idols, and the passages I quoted, are I Cor. 10.

I'm not sure who the one is confusing passages.  1 Corinthians 10:19,20 shows that idols have no spiritual power concerning the Christian.  Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:4,8.  Paul is still talking about eating or not eating based on circumstances of who is present. 

1 Corinthians 28 But if anyone says to you,

 

[Anchor]

...When would you tell a Christian it is appropriate to drink wine?

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." I Tim. 5:23

 

[Izdaari]

If you aren't making this about wine then what is the modern application?  When would you tell a Christian it is appropriate to drink wine?

The usual rule is red wine with steak or spaghetti, white wine with fish. Etc. :-*

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

If you aren't making this about wine then what is the modern application?  When would you tell a Christian it is appropriate to drink wine?

The usual rule is red wine with steak or spaghetti, white wine with fish. Etc. :-*

According to Justin Wilson, the best wine to use with any meal is the one you like to drink.  He used to make me laugh when he was cooking and would drink more wine than he put into his cajun meals. 

 

[Izdaari]

If you aren't making this about wine then what is the modern application?  When would you tell a Christian it is appropriate to drink wine?

The usual rule is red wine with steak or spaghetti, white wine with fish. Etc. :-*

According to Justin Wilson, the best wine to use with any meal is the one you like to drink.  He used to make me laugh when he was cooking and would drink more wine than he put into his cajun meals.

LOL! Well, he's right. I generally prefer medium-dry reds, like a good merlot or shiraz. But you can't beat a good chianti with pasta. (But alas, I can rarely afford a good chianti... and cheap chianti isn't that good. )

 

[Anchor]

If you aren't making this about wine then what is the modern application?  ...

The modern application is the same as the original.  Idolatry defines practically every culture, and is the antithesis of Christ and His Gospel.  Given any opportunity idolatry will infect the body of Christ because man's heart is idolatrous at its core.  I Cor. 10:6 FF makes that case very plainly--"Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand....Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."  Though you must function in the culture you cannot and must not incorporate that culture's idolatry into the body of Christ at any level. 

Battling idolatry is given at 3 levels:
1) "Flee from idolatry" (I Cor. 10:14)
2) "Keep [guard] yourselves from idols" (I Jn. 5:21)
3) "Abstain from pollutions of idols" (Acts 15:20)

And you cannot flee from idolatry if you do not guard against idols or abstain from their pollutions.  The example of the Old Testament is clear, referenced in the above quoted passage: "And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people  did eat, and bowed down to their gods.  And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel (Num.25:2-3)."

So the modern application is clear: Flee idolatry by diligently guarding against the incorporation of any idols into the body of Christ, and by abstaining from those objects or actions spawned by the prevalent cultural idolatry but which have gained widespread cultural inclusion even at the level of commerce ("sold in the shambles") and custom ("bid you to a feast and ye be disposed to go"). Once knowledge of an object or action being associative of cultural idolatry, it is to be rejected, whatever "it" may be.

"Give none offense, neither to the [unbelieving] Jews, nor to the [unbelieving] Gentiles, nor to the church of God...."

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Anchor]...[/quote]

Since you are apparently the resident expert...

what is the dominant idolatry or prevalent idolatries that define American culture today?

(Hint: It's not a new thing.)

 

[Anchor]

[quote author=Anchor]...

Since you are apparently the resident expert...

what is the dominant idolatry or prevalent idolatries that define American culture today?

(Hint: It's not a new thing.)
[/quote]

Ok, since I really can't tell via posts who is seriously looking for answers and who is simply being snarky, let's go this way.  There are about 5 that have been consistent in this thread--rsc2a; biscuit; mudcat; FSSL; and myself, w/ several other occasionally.  Defining idolatry as false worship, between us we should have the Scriptural ability to:
A) determine biblically what characterizes worship, either true or false.
B) determine from those characterizations what exactly is being worshipped
C) determine, if that worship is false (idolatry), the length and breadth of its impact in defining the culture
D) discern the elements (objects or actions) accepted in culture that would draw the individual believer and the Church of Christ into syncretization with the prevailing idolatries.

In this manner we will all be on the same page, and what we discover will not be opinion, but soundly discerned from the principles laid out in Scripture.

Anyone care to join me on this?

 

[FSSL]

The question is what wine, today, is particularly associated with pagans to be determined joining with demons.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The question is what wine, today, is particularly associated with pagans to be determined joining with demons.

Does the idolatry have to take the exact form ("joining with demons") as it did in Paul's day in order to have application today?  In other words, is alcoholic idolatry only idolatry if the booze is associated with demons?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Anchor]Anyone care to join me on this?[/quote]

So far, all I've seen is that you refuse to answer questions that people ask you, so why should I bother?

 

[christundivided]

The question is what wine, today, is particularly associated with pagans to be determined joining with demons.

Does the idolatry have to take the exact form ("joining with demons") as it did in Paul's day in order to have application today?  In other words, is alcoholic idolatry only idolatry if the booze is associated with demons?

Maybe you could provide your view of how alcohol can actually become idolatry?