1 Cor 8: A misunderstood, hand grenade text

[Anchor]

To boil it down to a sentence, the predominant "religion" of America is  deistic secular humanism. Though a majority will say they believe in God, most don't know much about Him. And they don't have a very positive image of Christians... and sadly, they have good reason for that. Christians have behaved badly and given our religion a bad name. All this is confirmed by Barna's surveys.

Let's say I agree with you.  If it is a prevalent cultural idolatry it will produce idols and it will pollute through its worship ritual objects and/or actions that are common to culture  even to the level of commerce and custom.  Scripture gives specific commands towards these: "keep yourselves from idols..."; and "abstain from pollutions of idols...."

Let's take this one question at a time.  What are the idols, the instruments and inventions of this specific idolatry?

 

[Izdaari]

To boil it down to a sentence, the predominant "religion" of America is  deistic secular humanism. Though a majority will say they believe in God, most don't know much about Him. And they don't have a very positive image of Christians... and sadly, they have good reason for that. Christians have behaved badly and given our religion a bad name. All this is confirmed by Barna's surveys.

Let's say I agree with you.  If it is a prevalent cultural idolatry it will produce idols and it will pollute through its worship ritual objects and/or actions that are common to culture  even to the level of commerce and custom.  Scripture gives specific commands towards these: "keep yourselves from idols..."; and "abstain from pollutions of idols...."

Let's take this one question at a time.  What are the idols, the instruments and inventions of this specific idolatry?

Ok, maybe we've found some common ground. But I think I take that Scripture perhaps more literally than you do. I think Paul was talking about literal idols, objects of pagan worship and sacrifice. I don't think he had popular culture in mind, and I'm hesitant to try to stretch it to cover that.

 

[FSSL]

<Let's take this one question at a time.  What are the idols, the instruments and inventions of this specific idolatry?

Well? What are they?

 

[Anchor]

Ok, maybe we've found some common ground. But I think I take that Scripture perhaps more literally than you do. I think Paul was talking about literal idols, objects of pagan worship and sacrifice. I don't think he had popular culture in mind, and I'm hesitant to try to stretch it to cover that.

No stretch at all.  Paul, under inspiration, gave eternal guidelines for dealing with idolatry, idols, and pollutions.  Do you really think that God would waste 4 chapters of inspired writ on something that was, essentially, a moot point to the western world by the 3rd century AD (the destruction of the temple of Artemis)?

Idolatry and its accompanying idols, etc., change generationally and from culture to culture, society to society.  Every idolatry, as new or different as it may be in any given generation, will have biblically identifying characteristics; i.e., it is worship, and it is false.  And every idolatry has potential to infect the church of Christ. 

Culture is not some eternal being.  It is merely a reflection of the dominating influences of the societies that make it up.  One of the most dominating influences will be religion.  Culture that is an outgrowth of idolatry, whether western, eastern, 3rd world, or wherever, must be rejected by  the believer and cannot be incorporated into the church/body of Christ.  It is that simple. 

You've identified an idolatry.  Now identify the idols.  They do exist. 

 

[FSSL]

So now Anchor wants Izzy to identify the idols.

Help.me.understand...
Anchors refuses to answer a question because he.fears it may be challenged.
Anchor diverts and requires another person answer the.question.

Isn't it clear, by now, that Anchor's ruse has no limits?

 

[ALAYMAN]

So now Anchor wants Izzy to identify the idols.

Help.me.understand...
Anchors refuses to answer a question because he.fears it may be challenged.
Anchor diverts and requires another person answer the.question.

Isn't it clear, by now, that Anchor's ruse has no limits?

He's too much of a Christian to say it, so I will.  You're an idiot.

I gave you ONE prevalent cultural idol (Sports), but you don't want to see that Anchor is starting the conversation from the fundamental beginning of identifying what elements constitute cultural idolatry (rather than personal idolatry).  The objects of said idolatry may be multivarious, but the thrust of identifying how these elements work their way out has much to do with how the church avoids being ensared by them, as well as keep from tainting public worship with their misguided philosophy.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Anchor]Let's take this one question at a time.  What are the idols, the instruments and inventions of this specific idolatry?[/quote]

Yes....do tell us.

 

[FSSL]

So now Anchor wants Izzy to identify the idols.

Help.me.understand...
Anchors refuses to answer a question because he.fears it may be challenged.
Anchor diverts and requires another person answer the.question.

Isn't it clear, by now, that Anchor's ruse has no limits?

He's too much of a Christian to say it, so I will.  You're an idiot.

I gave you ONE prevalent cultural idol (Sports), but you don't want to see that Anchor is starting the conversation from the fundamental beginning of identifying what elements constitute cultural idolatry (rather than personal idolatry).  The objects of said idolatry may be multivarious, but the thrust of identifying how these elements work their way out has much to do with how the church avoids being ensared by them, as well as keep from tainting public worship with their misguided philosophy.

Oh..I was supposed to take your skit seriously? Painting their bodies...Sacrifices? Are you serious? Everyone who paints themselves at a game is practicing idolatry? I know sports are idolatrous to many, but that video undermines the idea of idolatry.

Anchor is not starting from the basics. He has no answers. He cannot even identify his prevalent idolatry.

It is always the OBJECT with you guys.

 

[rsc2a]

To boil it down to a sentence, the predominant "religion" of America is  deistic secular humanism. Though a majority will say they believe in God, most don't know much about Him. And they don't have a very positive image of Christians... and sadly, they have good reason for that. Christians have behaved badly and given our religion a bad name. All this is confirmed by Barna's surveys.

Let's say I agree with you.  If it is a prevalent cultural idolatry it will produce idols and it will pollute through its worship ritual objects and/or actions that are common to culture  even to the level of commerce and custom.  Scripture gives specific commands towards these: "keep yourselves from idols..."; and "abstain from pollutions of idols...."

Let's take this one question at a time.  What are the idols, the instruments and inventions of this specific idolatry?

So you are still refusing to answer the question?

It's a lengthy answer.  Some things cannot be done in bytes. 

So, instead of being snarky, why not weigh in on what is before us?  Are the definitions presented correct and biblical?  If not, then  correct them.  We can't have a discussion until we are all on the same page.

Earlier...

[quote author=rsc2a]So far, all I've seen is that you refuse to answer questions that people ask you, so why should I bother?

...now...

You are presupposing entire arguments in order to be "fair". Why should I except your final answer (if you ever decide to answer the question that's been posed multiple times by multiple people) to be any more "fair"?
[/quote]

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So now Anchor wants Izzy to identify the idols.

Help.me.understand...
Anchors refuses to answer a question because he.fears it may be challenged.
Anchor diverts and requires another person answer the.question.

Isn't it clear, by now, that Anchor's ruse has no limits?

He's too much of a Christian to say it, so I will.  You're an idiot.

I gave you ONE prevalent cultural idol (Sports), but you don't want to see that Anchor is starting the conversation from the fundamental beginning of identifying what elements constitute cultural idolatry (rather than personal idolatry).  The objects of said idolatry may be multivarious, but the thrust of identifying how these elements work their way out has much to do with how the church avoids being ensared by them, as well as keep from tainting public worship with their misguided philosophy.

Perhaps he's just being disingenuious....it's a fine line between that and idiocy....ask r2d2! 

 

[Izdaari]

Yes, Paul's words are still relevant.

Yes, idolatry is still around. It didn't go away with the worship of the Greek and Roman pantheons.

No, pop culture is not idolatry. People may make elements of it idolatry for themselves by their unbalanced enthusiasms, but it isn't that inherently.

 

[Anchor]

Yes, Paul's words are still relevant.

Yes, idolatry is still around. It didn't go away with the worship of the Greek and Roman pantheons.

No, pop culture is not idolatry. People may make elements of it idolatry for themselves by their unbalanced enthusiasms, but it isn't that inherently.

Scripture does not tout any particular culture as either right, wrong, good, or bad.  But there are elements (objects and actions)  in any given culture that are there due to the idolatry of that culture. 

I will agree, pop culture is not idolatry.  Neither was the meat sold in the shambles or presented at the neighbor's wedding feast.  But, like the meat, elements of pop culture could result from the influence on the culture by the prevalent idolatry and, as such, must be rejected by the church.  That is why it is necessary to be able to identify the idolatry/false worship. 

With that in mind, you have identified an area you think is idolatrous (secular humanism), and you may be right.  What is the biblical foundation you have for making that identity, and what are its accompanying idols (and a temple to it would rightly be considered an idol)?

 

[FSSL]

Yes, Paul's words are still relevant.

Yes, idolatry is still around. It didn't go away with the worship of the Greek and Roman pantheons.

No, pop culture is not idolatry. People may make elements of it idolatry for themselves by their unbalanced enthusiasms, but it isn't that inherently.

Absolutely right... now maybe Anchor will now tell us what the prevalent idolatry is and the objects of said idolatry.

Identifying a prevalent idolatry (so that he can make the objects of that particular idolatry, anathema) is certainly absurd.

Or, maybe he could just admit that ANYTHING can be turned into an idol. Even a forum.

 

[Izdaari]

With that in mind, you have identified an area you think is idolatrous (secular humanism), and you may be right.  What is the biblical foundation you have for making that identity, and what are its accompanying idols (and a temple to it would rightly be considered an idol)?

I don't remember calling it idolatry but...

I observed that the predominant religion of the United States would appear to be a deistic form of secular humanism. Deistic, because most Americans claim to believe in God, but don't seem to know very much about Him. Secular humanism, because in practice that's their value system. Is that idolatry?

Well, to be sure, it's a philosophical/religious view that is not quite correct from a Christian PoV. If that's what you mean, yes, I guess so. It could be considered a false religion, albeit a very disorganized and unsystematic one. And it's not something anyone converts to, but rather something they default to in the absence of other belief systems.

What biblical foundation would I need for that observation? I thought it was empirical, but the sections of Paul this thread is about might possibly have some application. I could cite Philosophy: Who Needs It? by Ayn Rand, but that's not Scripture.

Do people actively worship something in the name of that form of deistic secular humanism?

Are there temples or other places of worship to it?

Gee, I dunno. You tell me.

Thinking about it makes my brain hurt. I'm going to go play some games.  8)

 

[Anchor]

I don't remember calling it idolatry but...

I observed that the predominant religion of the United States would appear to be a deistic form of secular humanism. Deistic, because most Americans claim to believe in God, but don't seem to know very much about Him. Secular humanism, because in practice that's their value system. Is that idolatry?

This is the reason that definitions are important, and why agreeing on definitions is imperative before we can continue this discussion in a meaningful manner.  According to the definition I have postulated (Idolatry is any form of false worship), then, yes, that is idolatry.

Do people actively worship something in the name of that form of deistic secular humanism?

Are there temples or other places of worship to it?

...

Good questions.  Pardon my cynicism, but generally my observation has been to waffle at questions like this ("...I dunno...") indicates a lack of willingness to go further because that further information may require a scriptural response that we are unwilling to take.  IOW, we really like the trappings of the idolatry. 

"Do people actively worship something in the name of that form of deistic secular humanism?"
Sure they do.  I Tim. 6:20 refers to it as "...science falsely so called...."    It is a basic underpinning of our current culture, that God as normally referenced does not exist; reason and science are the immortal, infallible "beings"; all is self-created; and that morality is subject to those deities. 

"Are there temples or other places of worship to it?"
I am going to leave you and others to answer this for the time being, mainly because an honest answer to this question will require an entire philosophical shift for many of us here.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Anchor]"Do people actively worship something in the name of that form of deistic secular humanism?"
Sure they do.  I Tim. 6:20 refers to it as "...science falsely so called...."    It is a basic underpinning of our current culture, that God as normally referenced does not exist; reason and science are the immortal, infallible "beings"; all is self-created; and that morality is subject to those deities.  [/quote]

Examples like this show why the KJVO position is asinine.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Examples like this show why the KJVO position is asinine.
[/quote]

Once again you show your foolishness.  Anchor is NOT KJVo by ANY stretch.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Examples like this show why the KJVO position is asinine.

Once again you show your foolishness.  Anchor is NOT KJVo by ANY stretch.
[/quote]

Then he should probably have used a better translation because "science" there doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

 

[Mathew Ward]

So now Anchor wants Izzy to identify the idols.

Help.me.understand...
Anchors refuses to answer a question because he.fears it may be challenged.
Anchor diverts and requires another person answer the.question.

Isn't it clear, by now, that Anchor's ruse has no limits?

He's too much of a Christian to say it, so I will.  You're an idiot.

I gave you ONE prevalent cultural idol (Sports), but you don't want to see that Anchor is starting the conversation from the fundamental beginning of identifying what elements constitute cultural idolatry (rather than personal idolatry).  The objects of said idolatry may be multivarious, but the thrust of identifying how these elements work their way out has much to do with how the church avoids being ensared by them, as well as keep from tainting public worship with their misguided philosophy.

So if a church has a ministry called "Upward" and they use sports to bring folks to Christ, it would be wrong because sports are a cultural idol?

 

[Anchor]

Examples like this show why the KJVO position is asinine.

Hey, I'm not above tossing you a bone: "Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called 'knowledge',..." I Tim. 6:20 ESV

So we've made an tentative identification of at least one of the prevalent idolatries of America: secular-deist humanism.  Care to join in with your thoughts on whether you agree or disagree, accompanying instruments and inventions (idols) or any pollutions that have made their way to the level of cultural acceptance or identification?