Why Jack Schaap Fell

[Baptist City Holdout]

Pappa Bear - "I wish that FBC would reach out and embrace the whole of true Christianity instead of insisting on its continued position as "the greatest church since Pentecost."

And good night Pappa Bear, You  ain't never lied!

 

[North]

Schaap came from money.  He was a fast talker.  He knew people who had money.  In the beginning every month before the monthly business meetings there would be the monthly papers that showed where everything was going.  That stopped after he took over.  I believe the deacons were aware, but the church people weren't.  "We need to take money out of the surplus fund to pay for this and that." All approved - amen and passed.  Pastor Wilkerson has now reinstated that and we know what is coming in and going out.  No funny business anymore.  People are aware what we have and what we don't.  He even publishes what we have in the weekly Wednesday night bulletin. He isn't hiding anything.

When did he stop them? I don't recall them being stopped, but my memory isn't that good anymore. Is there anyone on this forum who are still members of FBCH that can verify his statement?

 

[PappaBear]

Pappa Bear - "I wish that FBC would reach out and embrace the whole of true Christianity instead of insisting on its continued position as "the greatest church since Pentecost."

And good night Pappa Bear, You  ain't never lied!

Relax, man!  I was just making a suggestion for the Fall Program.  They could buy the world a coke on Big Day. 

(Make mine a 2 liter, and none of this diet stuff, ok?)

 

[BALAAM]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

Yeah, right. He is still there sitting smugly up on the platform. I would not trust that guy with another dime of money or much else for that matter. He still has his job, benefits, retirement, and should be able to slide right in to the conference speaker circuit for extra retirement cash.

 

[Bravo]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

Yeah, right. He is still there sitting smugly up on the platform. I would not trust that guy with another dime of money or much else for that matter. He still has his job, benefits, retirement, and should be able to slide right in to the conference speaker circuit for extra retirement cash.

Agreed.

 

[tobytyler]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

Yeah, right. He is still there sitting smugly up on the platform. I would not trust that guy with another dime of money or much else for that matter. He still has his job, benefits, retirement, and should be able to slide right in to the conference speaker circuit for extra retirement cash.

Word is spreading that JW is wanting to bring his associate pastor form Calif. to serve as associate in Hammond.  His associate grew up at FBC Hammond in the 60's and 70's and has told JW that he cannot come until JW lets Lapina go, because Lapina was full aware of the big Dave Hyles' coverups and chose to sit silently.

 

[Timotheus]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

Yeah, right. He is still there sitting smugly up on the platform. I would not trust that guy with another dime of money or much else for that matter. He still has his job, benefits, retirement, and should be able to slide right in to the conference speaker circuit for extra retirement cash.

There was a lot of "off the books" money that came in under JS.  If a large donor (like decoster) gave to FBC, the average church members like me and most of the deacons never knew about it.  Because I believe it was usually given with the stipulation that it could be spent by the discretion of the pastor, they could legitimately (but maybe not ethically) spend it without any approval by the church membership.

It was my understanding that in the 11 years of JS being pastor, more money came through this way than came through tithe and Faith promise.  EL and JS had a lot of money with no accountability.  I think it would take a forensic accountant to be able to trace where all of it went.

 

[bgwilkinson]

If JS didn't know it was illegal to take an underage person accross state lines imagine what else he might have thought it was ok to do.

 

[lnf]

I do the finances for my church.  I don't know a thing about FBC, or any other church for that matter, as to how they book their income.  But as for my church, when we receive an offering designated to "wherever needed", we book it under tithes/offerings.  That means it goes into our general fund to pay our customary expenses.  We strive to be transparent.  We include an abbreviated financial report in our Sunday bulletin.  We have a business meeting no less than twice each year...one for the annual budget and one for the mid-year review.  And our doors are always open to anyone who wants to see the minute details of any line item...

Now, to make things crystal clear, we also carefully track designated donations...missions, ministries, etc.  We take great pains to book every single penny to the proper account, whether income or expense.  We strive to be good stewards of the money God brings into our coffers... 

 

[IFB X-Files]

I do the finances for my church.  I don't know a thing about FBC, or any other church for that matter, as to how they book their income.  But as for my church, when we receive an offering designated to "wherever needed", we book it under tithes/offerings.  That means it goes into our general fund to pay our customary expenses.  We strive to be transparent.  We include an abbreviated financial report in our Sunday bulletin.  We have a business meeting no less than twice each year...one for the annual budget and one for the mid-year review.  And our doors are always open to anyone who wants to see the minute details of any line item...

Now, to make things crystal clear, we also carefully track designated donations...missions, ministries, etc.  We take great pains to book every single penny to the proper account, whether income or expense.  We strive to be good stewards of the money God brings into our coffers...

Good post and I'm wanting to be argumentative, but doesn't the IRS say you cannot "designate" money given to a church?  (I believe this is to prevent money laundering)  Don't many churches have a saying on the envelope something like "designated gifts will be used as the church sees fit" or some such language?

 

[prophet]

If JS didn't know it was illegal to take an underage person accross state lines imagine what else he might have thought it was ok to do.

That'll leava mark!!

Anishinabe

 

[myeyesareopen]

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

EXACTLY! EXACTLY!! EXACTLY!!! And yes, he sits up there smugly. So very true.

I worried a little bit when Pastor Wilkerson sometime last week chided we people who haven't 'moved on' yet...he said he can't come in and fix everyone's problem with another person...While there are huge glimmers that he (Pastor Wilkerson) is different, there are occasional glimmers that underneath it all, he is also the same. If that makes any sense...

Part of me realizes that is God's job to clean up the messes, get rid of whoever needs gotten rid of. Another part of me realizes my extreme impatience and dissatisfaction that the job doesn't seem to be getting done as fast as or the way I would want it done is sin on my part, for I am judging God with my pitiful human comprehension. However, another part of me says, "Not one dime to this church until..."

I absolutely detested the "throw it in your face" swagger of JS. And I always thought I was wrong because he was the Man Of God. So it was quite the internal conflict raging there. A year later, I am healing SOMEWHAT. I think perhaps I am more sensitive than most, but I was very, very wounded by this whole thing and the subsequent months of revelations that ensued. To learn that nothing was what it seemed...I'd believed a devious fairy tale and thought it was from God? Let God be true and every man a liar, for we most certainly are and some more than others God help their sorry, sorry souls.

Obviously I am still skeptical and uncertain. That is going away, but then I am reminded -- there are people of whom I have legitimate cause to be skeptical and uncertain. And they are put up above me and I bristle against that.

 

[PappaBear]

While there are huge glimmers that he (Pastor Wilkerson) is different, there are occasional glimmers that underneath it all, he is also the same. If that makes any sense...

That makes perfect sense, and you are RIGHT to feel that way.  The problem is not the man, but the system.  If anyone continues in the same system, then it just becomes "more of the same."

Part of me realizes that is God's job to clean up the messes, get rid of whoever needs gotten rid of. Another part of me realizes my extreme impatience and dissatisfaction that the job doesn't seem to be getting done as fast as or the way I would want it done is sin on my part, for I am judging God with my pitiful human comprehension. However, another part of me says, "Not one dime to this church until..."

Not quite.  Careful about throwing around that "sin" term.  God does not do everything, but He tasks us with some responsibilities in these matters.  That is why Nathan the Prophet, when the whole nation is averting their eyes at David's shame, has to come and say, "Thou art the man."  Somebody had to do it!  The "it is sin on my part" attitude of many at FBCH is exactly why so much has been gotten away with.  We as church members have never been intended to be quiet, unthinking sheep.  Don't fall into the trap of thinking you are incorrectly judging the LORD when you are really questioning the antics of mortal men.

I absolutely detested the "throw it in your face" swagger of JS. And I always thought I was wrong because he was the Man Of God. So it was quite the internal conflict raging there. A year later, I am healing SOMEWHAT. I think perhaps I am more sensitive than most, but I was very, very wounded by this whole thing and the subsequent months of revelations that ensued. To learn that nothing was what it seemed...I'd believed a devious fairy tale and thought it was from God? Let God be true and every man a liar, for we most certainly are and some more than others God help their sorry, sorry souls.

The hurt is real, and many feel for you.  I identify because I felt much the same back in 1983, except then it was a different man at the same church.  It was as if Lancelot, the strong and true warrior, had spoiled Camelot.  The Bible tells us not to put confidence in either men or princes.  It is God that is true, and every man (including me and all on here as well as the leadership at FBCH) is a liar.  We are told in the NT to have "no confidence in the flesh."  Flesh and blood will always disappoint.  The key is to not let it drive you away from your confidence in the LORD.  These men have falsely climbed onto the throne that is rightly His alone. 

Obviously I am still skeptical and uncertain. That is going away, but then I am reminded -- there are people of whom I have legitimate cause to be skeptical and uncertain. And they are put up above me and I bristle against that.

Be careful of it going away.  A little dose of skepticism can go a long way towards a lot of accountability.  John 10 is a powerful passage.  There, Christ tells us "my sheep hear my voice."  Unfortunately, we too often ignore another part of that passage, "and a stranger will they not follow."  It is wrong to rebel, but it is right to question.  It tends to keep people honest. 

Know that you are not alone in your experiences.  Also know that you are not alone in your struggles as many good brothers and sisters pray for all involved in this tragedy there.  There is going to be some weeping in the night, but also recall that joy comes in the morning! (Psalm 30:5)

 

[Bravo]

Now you have me really confused. Where was the "administrative pastor" who had charge of all the finances?

EXACTLY! EXACTLY!! EXACTLY!!! And yes, he sits up there smugly. So very true.

I worried a little bit when Pastor Wilkerson sometime last week chided we people who haven't 'moved on' yet...he said he can't come in and fix everyone's problem with another person...While there are huge glimmers that he (Pastor Wilkerson) is different, there are occasional glimmers that underneath it all, he is also the same. If that makes any sense...

Part of me realizes that is God's job to clean up the messes, get rid of whoever needs gotten rid of. Another part of me realizes my extreme impatience and dissatisfaction that the job doesn't seem to be getting done as fast as or the way I would want it done is sin on my part, for I am judging God with my pitiful human comprehension. However, another part of me says, "Not one dime to this church until..."

I absolutely detested the "throw it in your face" swagger of JS. And I always thought I was wrong because he was the Man Of God. So it was quite the internal conflict raging there. A year later, I am healing SOMEWHAT. I think perhaps I am more sensitive than most, but I was very, very wounded by this whole thing and the subsequent months of revelations that ensued. To learn that nothing was what it seemed...I'd believed a devious fairy tale and thought it was from God? Let God be true and every man a liar, for we most certainly are and some more than others God help their sorry, sorry souls.

Obviously I am still skeptical and uncertain. That is going away, but then I am reminded -- there are people of whom I have legitimate cause to be skeptical and uncertain. And they are put up above me and I bristle against that.

You've articulated it so well. At times I feel bad for the Wilkerson's. they seem by all accounts to be good people. Here they are among the guilty sycophants who immediately love and pledge their loyalty, and set up to blindly follow and among the rest of us skeptics. I have nothing against the Pastor and he has been nothing but kind,... But here I am.

Side note: when the new constitution was adopted one key sticking point was that offerings would no longer necessarily go where designated. ( I can only imagine that was already happening in a sense) but then money was being raised for new cribs in an offering, yeah I don't think so, I've already been told it probably won't go to where it is designated.

 

[BALAAM]

I just today talked with a man from out of town who grew up here. He stayed at his brother's house and when they walked in the door there was a huge picture of JS hanging in his living room right above his couch. They started to argue about it and the couple with the picture are still of the mind that this poor man did one little misdeed and is being made into a scapegoat. You all know the lines: We are all sinners, None of us are perfect, Look at all the good he did, He helped us out, etc.

Lots of luck with that moving on thing. I think that if js had done his deeds on the platform in plain view of everyone there would be people who would defend and support him. Just like all the despots throughout history. (and I am not sayng js is one)

 

[patriotic]

I just today talked with a man from out of town who grew up here. He stayed at his brother's house and when they walked in the door there was a huge picture of JS hanging in his living room right above his couch. They started to argue about it and the couple with the picture are still of the mind that this poor man did one little misdeed and is being made into a scapegoat. You all know the lines: We are all sinners, None of us are perfect, Look at all the good he did, He helped us out, etc.

Lots of luck with that moving on thing. I think that if js had done his deeds on the platform in plain view of everyone there would be people who would defend and support him. Just like all the despots throughout history. (and I am not sayng js is one)

That's just plain gross....even had he been a perfect specimen of Christlikeness. 

I appreciate my pastor, but I'm quite certain, since he is not a close family member, his picture would never be displayed in my home. 

 

[RAIDER]

I just today talked with a man from out of town who grew up here. He stayed at his brother's house and when they walked in the door there was a huge picture of JS hanging in his living room right above his couch. They started to argue about it and the couple with the picture are still of the mind that this poor man did one little misdeed and is being made into a scapegoat. You all know the lines: We are all sinners, None of us are perfect, Look at all the good he did, He helped us out, etc.

Lots of luck with that moving on thing. I think that if js had done his deeds on the platform in plain view of everyone there would be people who would defend and support him. Just like all the despots throughout history. (and I am not sayng js is one)

I definitely agree with you.  The "scapegoat" line is a bit too much.  I realize that someone who has been blessed by the actions of an individual sometimes finds it hard to condemn the individual to the level of someone who doesn't have the same feelings toward the individual. (Wow!!  That was a long sentence!) 

I had a friend who worked as an assistant for a man for 10 years.  This friend made a serious mistake.  He admitted his wrong, made things right, and moved on.  There were people who loved this guy.  They did not condone his wrong.  The pastor was bitter and made the comment, "The way I look at it what this guy did disqualifies any good he did here."

I have never been a Schaap fan.  I have been critical of his crazy teaching and preaching for several years.  It is easy for me to drop the judgment hammer.  On the other hand, I'm sure Schaap has done much good for many people.  It would have to be much harder for these folks to drop the hammer as quickly.  The evil Schaap did must be paid for, but the good he did should not be forgotten. 

 

[RAIDER]

I just today talked with a man from out of town who grew up here. He stayed at his brother's house and when they walked in the door there was a huge picture of JS hanging in his living room right above his couch. They started to argue about it and the couple with the picture are still of the mind that this poor man did one little misdeed and is being made into a scapegoat. You all know the lines: We are all sinners, None of us are perfect, Look at all the good he did, He helped us out, etc.

Lots of luck with that moving on thing. I think that if js had done his deeds on the platform in plain view of everyone there would be people who would defend and support him. Just like all the despots throughout history. (and I am not sayng js is one)

That's just plain gross....even had he been a perfect specimen of Christlikeness. 

I appreciate my pastor, but I'm quite certain, since he is not a close family member, his picture would never be displayed in my home.

Yet you have a picture of me framed above your fireplace in my HAC Alumni Blazer taking a sip of Binaca.  A bit of a double standard I would say.

 

[BALAAM]

I just today talked with a man from out of town who grew up here. He stayed at his brother's house and when they walked in the door there was a huge picture of JS hanging in his living room right above his couch. They started to argue about it and the couple with the picture are still of the mind that this poor man did one little misdeed and is being made into a scapegoat. You all know the lines: We are all sinners, None of us are perfect, Look at all the good he did, He helped us out, etc.

Lots of luck with that moving on thing. I think that if js had done his deeds on the platform in plain view of everyone there would be people who would defend and support him. Just like all the despots throughout history. (and I am not sayng js is one)

I definitely agree with you.  The "scapegoat" line is a bit too much.  I realize that someone who has been blessed by the actions of an individual sometimes finds it hard to condemn the individual to the level of someone who doesn't have the same feelings toward the individual. (Wow!!  That was a long sentence!) 

I had a friend who worked as an assistant for a man for 10 years.  This friend made a serious mistake.  He admitted his wrong, made things right, and moved on.  There were people who loved this guy.  They did not condone his wrong.  The pastor was bitter and made the comment, "The way I look at it what this guy did disqualifies any good he did here."

I have never been a Schaap fan.  I have been critical of his crazy teaching and preaching for several years.  It is easy for me to drop the judgment hammer.  On the other hand, I'm sure Schaap has done much good for many people.  It would have to be much harder for these folks to drop the hammer as quickly.  The evil Schaap did must be paid for, but the good he did should not be forgotten.

It is very difficult to draw lines sometimes. I try very hard not to be too harsh with those who do not draw the lines in the same spot I do. I wasn't always like this. Age tends to soften you! ( You will find out in a few years Raider)

 

[lnf]

I do the finances for my church.  I don't know a thing about FBC, or any other church for that matter, as to how they book their income.  But as for my church, when we receive an offering designated to "wherever needed", we book it under tithes/offerings.  That means it goes into our general fund to pay our customary expenses.  We strive to be transparent.  We include an abbreviated financial report in our Sunday bulletin.  We have a business meeting no less than twice each year...one for the annual budget and one for the mid-year review.  And our doors are always open to anyone who wants to see the minute details of any line item...

Now, to make things crystal clear, we also carefully track designated donations...missions, ministries, etc.  We take great pains to book every single penny to the proper account, whether income or expense.  We strive to be good stewards of the money God brings into our coffers...

Good post and I'm wanting to be argumentative, but doesn't the IRS say you cannot "designate" money given to a church?  (I believe this is to prevent money laundering)  Don't many churches have a saying on the envelope something like "designated gifts will be used as the church sees fit" or some such language?

As I understand it (and, goodness I better be right  ) there are certain sorts of designations that not tax deductible to the donor or are taxable to the recipient.  But designated donations internal to church operations is not one of them.  If someone wants to add to the approved budget to a certain line item in our ministries, we book it that way. 

Now, whether or not it is against the law for me to use that donation for another purpose is a different matter altogether.  To us, it's a heart matter.  If someone wants to give us a donation for a program we are not planning to do, we simply don't accept it.  If a program is cancelled after a donation is received, we return the gift.  A few years ago, we closed a ministry.  And that's exactly what we did.  We returned the funds.