Why Jack Schaap Fell

[sword]

And to think some of us thought this forum was starting to look a little dull.

Just got off to a slow start I guess. I'm starting to see some of the energy I remember from the old days.

Where are invictus and some of the other fighters?

Why won't they join us here???

 

[16KJV11]

Ruckman, blah, blah, Vineyard, blah, blah...got it, Preeble.

Anishinabe

That's Preable to you! 

 

[kaba]

Let him be accountable for his OWN sin!! He chose to sin.

 

[prophet]

Ruckman, blah, blah, Vineyard, blah, blah...got it, Preeble.

Anishinabe

That's Preable to you! 

his name is Preeble, his handle was preable, his logic was feeble, we're evil.

Anishinabe

 

[Still There]

I've said from the beginning when Schaap took over the church, he did too much too fast.  I told my family in the very beginning 10 years and something will happen.  Well, I was a year off.  I said he wouldn't stay long, he'd be bored with it and move on to something bigger or better.  When he mentioned in a Wednesday night sermon that the million or so dollars Bro. Hyles left was gone and the way he said it I cried.  We worked so hard to be debt free.  It was gone in months after he took over and no one said a thing.  He was asking for more money.  Church people were already unemployed, thread baren with no money, he's laying of staff members, and all he's doing is spend, spend, spend and it all went to his head.  All the millions of dollars Bro. Hyles left he had to spend it.  He went on these mission trips all over the world, lived in $2,000 hand made suits.  Nothing second class for him.  He had a motorcycle, jet skis and nothing but the best of boy toys.  Had his own plane and could go anywhere.  No one questioned him.  Had to have a big auditorium that we can't fill, in debt up to our ears, people struggling while he's buying a $600,000 home in cash in Crete.  Yes, I'm very bitter at what he did to my church and the people of the church while he lived the high life, and Cindy too.  People didn't say boo because they were afraid of him.  He was a bully and bullied from the pulpit.  I stayed because I love the people of the church.  I knew he'd fall, but like this.  Jack DeCoster won't even touch us now all thanks to Jack Schaap.  That's okay, we'll get over Schaap in time and the old church downtown will survive like it has over the last 100 years.  We may crimp along, but we're still there. 

 

[RAIDER]

I've said from the beginning when Schaap took over the church, he did too much too fast.  I told my family in the very beginning 10 years and something will happen.  Well, I was a year off.  I said he wouldn't stay long, he'd be bored with it and move on to something bigger or better.  When he mentioned in a Wednesday night sermon that the million or so dollars Bro. Hyles left was gone and the way he said it I cried.  We worked so hard to be debt free.  It was gone in months after he took over and no one said a thing.  He was asking for more money.  Church people were already unemployed, thread baren with no money, he's laying of staff members, and all he's doing is spend, spend, spend and it all went to his head.  All the millions of dollars Bro. Hyles left he had to spend it.  He went on these mission trips all over the world, lived in $2,000 hand made suits.  Nothing second class for him.  He had a motorcycle, jet skis and nothing but the best of boy toys.  Had his own plane and could go anywhere.  No one questioned him.  Had to have a big auditorium that we can't fill, in debt up to our ears, people struggling while he's buying a $600,000 home in cash in Crete.  Yes, I'm very bitter at what he did to my church and the people of the church while he lived the high life, and Cindy too.  People didn't say boo because they were afraid of him.  He was a bully and bullied from the pulpit.  I stayed because I love the people of the church.  I knew he'd fall, but like this.  Jack DeCoster won't even touch us now all thanks to Jack Schaap.  That's okay, we'll get over Schaap in time and the old church downtown will survive like it has over the last 100 years.  We may crimp along, but we're still there.

You mention all of the "things" Schaap had.  Did he get the money to live this lifestyle from his dad?  Surely FBCH had financial statements where a member could see what Schaap was being paid.

 

[Still There]

Schaap came from money.  He was a fast talker.  He knew people who had money.  In the beginning every month before the monthly business meetings there would be the monthly papers that showed where everything was going.  That stopped after he took over.  I believe the deacons were aware, but the church people weren't.  "We need to take money out of the surplus fund to pay for this and that." All approved - amen and passed.  Pastor Wilkerson has now reinstated that and we know what is coming in and going out.  No funny business anymore.  People are aware what we have and what we don't.  He even publishes what we have in the weekly Wednesday night bulletin. He isn't hiding anything. 

 

[RAIDER]

Schaap came from money.  He was a fast talker.  He knew people who had money.  In the beginning every month before the monthly business meetings there would be the monthly papers that showed where everything was going.  That stopped after he took over.  I believe the deacons were aware, but the church people weren't.  "We need to take money out of the surplus fund to pay for this and that." All approved - amen and passed.  Pastor Wilkerson has now reinstated that and we know what is coming in and going out.  No funny business anymore.  People are aware what we have and what we don't.  He even publishes what we have in the weekly Wednesday night bulletin. He isn't hiding anything.

I know Schaap's story fairly well.  You spoke of him living an extravant lifestyle.  Where do you think that money came from?

 

[Still There]

Honestly, I don't know, but he talked about his father came from wealth, he had horses and talks about how he had this and that.  He was the Schaap golden child. He used to take his father on the missionary trips, whether he or his father paid for these trips or not no one knows.  One must ask - where is someone going to get $600,000 cash when there is hard times going on in the church???

 

[16KJV11]

Honestly, I don't know, but he talked about his father came from wealth, he had horses and talks about how he had this and that.  He was the Schaap golden child. He used to take his father on the missionary trips, whether he or his father paid for these trips or not no one knows.  One must ask - where is someone going to get $600,000 cash when there is hard times going on in the church???

If Schaap's dad is rich, he would probably want to bestow a lot of that on his son.
Schaap should have been wise enough not to spend it on elaborate things that few of his people could come close to being able to buy.

 

[RAIDER]

Honestly, I don't know, but he talked about his father came from wealth, he had horses and talks about how he had this and that.  He was the Schaap golden child. He used to take his father on the missionary trips, whether he or his father paid for these trips or not no one knows.  One must ask - where is someone going to get $600,000 cash when there is hard times going on in the church???

If someone read only your first post about this they might think Schaap was "taking" money from the church to live an extravagant lifestyle.  I was just wanting clarification on the money he spent on himself being "family" money.

 

[prophet]

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense.  Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe

 

[bgwilkinson]

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense.  Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe

You have perfectly articulated Bro. Hyles philosophy of ministry.

He taught this in words and deeds.

Did you find this in some of his unpublished writings?

Maybe secret notes to my son in law. "How to Pastor Successfully"

Or "Pastoring for For Fun and Profit"

 

[IFB X-Files]

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense.  Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe

This should have been under the "Church Ed" thread!

 

[prophet]

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense.  Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe

This should have been under the "Church Ed" thread!

"Impress them with your door to door service."

Anishinabe

 

[16KJV11]

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense.  Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe

This should have been under the "Church Ed" thread!

"Impress them with your door to door service."

Anishinabe

Give them 200 responsibilities and expect them all to be done expertly.
Give them 200 responsibilities, give them no help, and when he recruits recruits some of the school kids who are done with their work to help with the cleaning, chew him out b/c you asked his son to do something that he didn't want to do.

 

[Still There]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

 

[16KJV11]

There is heresay (from the mouths of babes - oh, I mean deacons) he took quite a bit of church money for his own couffers.  How can you do all the lavish traveling, pay for a $600,000 home in cash, give his wife a paid in full car, motorcycle, jet skies for the family, pay for family lavishes and live on a pastor's salary.  If it didn't come from his parents - then where else would it come from???  Just saying!  He lived well beyond his means and thought he was invincible.  That's why he fell and he fell hard!  Now he has 12 years to think what he had.  From riches to the rags!  A man forever changed!

If he was bad when he went to prison, I shudder to think what he'll be like when he gets out!

 

[PappaBear]

When it all comes down to it, Jack Schaap fell because it was leadership in-breeding. He was steeped in "the Hyles way" and found no proper way to break from that mold.

It is a legitimate fear that Wilkerson may do the same, regardless of his "successful" resume.  FBC once again made the mistake of reaching within its own circle to set another on the throne.  The problem is not the indivdual men, or their personalities, as much as it is the failed policies and unspiritual priorities.  That is what I think Linda was trying to communicate. 

As a teacher, then administrator, Schaap was considered by the HAC sheep as a darling.  There are those who speak out after the fall, but while Schaap reigned at FBC the party faithful were approving and applauding.  Now that the fall has come, they turn on the MAN to lay blame, but sadly it is a burden that is not to be born by him alone.  It should not be the money, the programs, the buildings, the bright lights, big stories, fame, big conferences or various ministries that should dictate what this church should be. 

I wish that FBC would reach out and embrace the whole of true Christianity instead of insisting on its continued position as "the greatest church since Pentecost."  It needs some fresh blood, new life, and novel ideas to break the old patterns and draw people to a closer walk with Christ rather than as blind followers of what has been.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always gotten.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

Note my addition.  Thank you very much, Prophet. Just touched a raw nerve.

Fundamentalist fiscal policy 101.

Hire the zealous peon at under poverty wages.  Teach him to claim every expense imaginable, 'cause you don't pay him enough to support a family. Teach him to 'preach out' for 'love offerings' slush funds. Publish his 'sermons' as 'books'.  Train him well, to use church resources for personal benefit, by graying the lines.  Train him to fleece the flock, by making him beg for every dime, while he is a peon.  Make him work a second job, to supplement his ministry expense. 

BUT MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T INTERFERE WITH ANY CHURCH ACTIVITIES. Note: I did not say services. That is a given. I said "extra curricular activities.

Praise him publicly when he does so.
  Soon you will have created the bitterness necessary to make a staff member callously feel that anything he can 'lead' the people to 'give' him is fair game.
Next lesson is coming soon.

Anishinabe