Why Do Calvinists Think They Have Superior Theology?

[AverageJoe]

Right here...

What would make a theology "superior" other than its proximity to the truth? If neither one is closer to the truth, than the other, that makes them equally inferior, and the truth something else.

Both have elements of the truth, and are close enough to the truth to be plausible...yet, using the same terminology and verses come to very different conclusions. We don't know which is wrong, and neither do they, no matter how much they insist. Doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Even a broken clock is still right at least twice a day.
And you're incorrect (guess that blows your tagline to hades and back "Neither fair nor balanced. Simply right." when you state I said something I so clearly didn't. You don't prevaricate well. LOL You're about as "right" as Sadaam was.....

 

[Ekklesian]

Both have elements of the truth, and are close enough to the truth to be plausible...yet, using the same terminology and verses come to very different conclusions.

Give an example.

We don't know which is wrong, and neither do they, no matter how much they insist.

If you don't know the truth, how can you identify elements of it in either argument?

Even a broken clock is still right at least twice a day.

You can only say that because you know the truth about clocks and days.

And you're incorrect (guess that blows your tagline to hades and back "Neither fair nor balanced. Simply right." when you state I said something I so clearly didn't. You don't prevaricate well. LOL You're about as "right" as Sadaam was.....

 

[AverageJoe]

So… tell me how the other side does not believe that “God conforms to man’s decisions.”

They don't believe the LORD GOD "conforms" to anyone's decisions but his own. He knows who will be saved and who won't, but, that doesn't necessarily equate to him "choosing"/electing them. He knows how each person will react to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and he allows them to do so.

I was taught semi-Pelagian (Arminianism) at college

That's part of the problem...you were taught by imbeciles, as was I. They're reading their personal opinions into the Bible and "labeling" things like "semi-Pelagian" or Hyper-Calvinist. UGH! How ignorant. The only labels we truly bear are "sinner," "saved," "unsaved," "Christian" or "anti-Christ." College professors, unlearned pastors, and laymen have helped confuse more people than I can count. Well-meaning, maybe, but, still authors of confusion.

where God’s foreknowledge (plan) was based on man’s (future) decisions.

It's NEVER based on man's future decisions. Those decisions are allowed to play out by an omniscient God with his blessing and willing participation, or lack thereof.

 

[AverageJoe]

Give an example.


If you don't know the truth, how can you identify elements of it in either argument?

We have enough truth from the Bible to judge to some degree. There are enough verses, and both sides usually use the same verses, to back up these theories....and until proven 100%, they are just that, THEORIES. Wow...that makes me think....do I really need to be saved then? If, as the Calvinists believe, I'm saved no matter what, then I don't even need to make that decision....it's already been made whether I say a prayer and repent. Hmmm.....
Yet, I came to Christ...was I drawn? Yes, by the preaching of the Gospel. I saw something that I needed...A savior to follow, who died for me, and who I could repent of my sins and serve in holiness. Do I need to do this every time I make a mistake, get frustrated, and walk away from the church and Christ as some Calvinists say the Arminian-leaning folks believe, (which, by the way, is only about 30% of those who believe in free will hold to..mostly CoC, Nazarene, CoG, and Free Will Baptists, Methodists, etc.)

You can only say that because you know the truth about clocks and days.

Do I? Do you? What if the clock is set 10 minutes ahead or 10 minutes slowly...is it still correct?

The thinker? Or "stinker?"

 

[Ekklesian]

I consider myself to be a reluctant Calvinist. I arrived at my position kicking and screaming

As did I. I've been a believer most of my life. I made a profession as a child. In my college years, suddenly and without warning, I was slammed with an insatiable hunger for the Scriptures, and for the writings of the Reformers. The more I learned of them, though, the more rotten I felt. I despaired at the realization of the extent of my sin, and my utter inability to do anything about it. One day working my summer job at a camping resort, I was really feeling that burden. (Bunyan painted some apt pictures.) And then a familiar verse was impressed upon me. It was like hearing it for the very first time. "My grace is sufficient for thee."

And I was free. I kept mowing, but tears were streaming down my cheeks.

Little by little my noncalvinist defenses were overcome, and I had to admit that God was God, and that He would have mercy upon whom He would have mercy, and whom He will, He would harden.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

And I was free. I kept mowing, but tears were streaming down my cheeks.

Are you sure you didn’t have a bowel movement?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

As did I. I've been a believer most of my life. I made a profession as a child. In my college years, suddenly and without warning, I was slammed with an insatiable hunger for the Scriptures, and for the writings of the Reformers. The more I learned of them, though, the more rotten I felt. I despaired at the realization of the extent of my sin, and my utter inability to do anything about it. One day working my summer job at a camping resort, I was really feeling that burden. (Bunyan painted some apt pictures.) And then a familiar verse was impressed upon me. It was like hearing it for the very first time. "My grace is sufficient for thee."

And I was free. I kept mowing, but tears were streaming down my cheeks.

Little by little my noncalvinist defenses were overcome, and I had to admit that God was God, and that He would have mercy upon whom He would have mercy, and whom He will, He would harden.

My "conversion" experience is a little more succinct. One day I realized I could either:

1. Become an "Open Theist" or
2. Honestly examine "What Saith the Scriptures" and believe what the Bible says!

I was in communication with a gentleman who wanted to start a Church in the Santa Clarita Valley (Southern California) and during this time, was also getting into fights on the old FFF with the likes of Corpsenomore, Smellin Coffee, Justified, Coyote, Dr Bob, and of course our beloved Ransom about silly questions as "For whom did Christ die?" and "What does all mean?" so forth, and so on...

I was getting quite a bit of coaching from my would-be "mentor" until I looked into this Bob Enyart dude who was pretty much his "guru" and discovered the heresy of "Open Theism." I was absolutely repulsed and decided I better to believe my Bible and become a Calvinist than to swallow this other nonsense!

This wasn't my point of conversion but it did cause me to start looking objectively (rather than adversarily) towards the pertinent matters of the debate. I also started attending a Church that was somewhat but not obnoxiously Calvinistic (Amyralidian or Calvinist without the "L") and used the NASB (I was staunch KJV Only). This is where I became the "Strat wailin, bass thumpin, sacred cow tippin, 'Baptist Renegade' that you all know and love today! And now you know.....the rest of the story!

I never really became the ardent, admant, antagonistic Calvinist that likes to run around instigating fights and I really don't care to be "That Guy!" For the most part, I keep my mouth shut about it although those in the know would have a clue regarding my soteriological bent if they sat through one of my Sunday School lessons.

In many respects, I have come around full circle and consider myself more Independant, more Fundamental, and more Baptist than ever before. I am adamant especially about the "T" and the "P" goes without saying. As you understand the issues related to the "T", the "U" and the "I" become more evident and the "L" is simply the logical conclusion of the other four points. There are some points where I will intentionally "Play dumb" and say something like "I don't know about man's inability to seek after God, all I know is that without God's divine intervention man WILL NOT seek after God!

 

[abcaines]

My "conversion" experience is a little more succinct. One day I realized I could either:

1. Become an "Open Theist" or
2. Honestly examine "What Saith the Scriptures" and believe what the Bible says!

I was in communication with a gentleman who wanted to start a Church in the Santa Clarita Valley (Southern California) and during this time, was also getting into fights on the old FFF with the likes of Corpsenomore, Smellin Coffee, Justified, Coyote, Dr Bob, and of course our beloved Ransom about silly questions as "For whom did Christ die?" and "What does all mean?" so forth, and so on...

I was getting quite a bit of coaching from my would-be "mentor" until I looked into this Bob Enyart dude who was pretty much his "guru" and discovered the heresy of "Open Theism." I was absolutely repulsed and decided I better to believe my Bible and become a Calvinist than to swallow this other nonsense!

This wasn't my point of conversion but it did cause me to start looking objectively (rather than adversarily) towards the pertinent matters of the debate. I also started attending a Church that was somewhat but not obnoxiously Calvinistic (Amyralidian or Calvinist without the "L") and used the NASB (I was staunch KJV Only). This is where I became the "Strat wailin, bass thumpin, sacred cow tippin, 'Baptist Renegade' that you all know and love today! And now you know.....the rest of the story!

I never really became the ardent, admant, antagonistic Calvinist that likes to run around instigating fights and I really don't care to be "That Guy!" For the most part, I keep my mouth shut about it although those in the know would have a clue regarding my soteriological bent if they sat through one of my Sunday School lessons.

In many respects, I have come around full circle and consider myself more Independant, more Fundamental, and more Baptist than ever before. I am adamant especially about the "T" and the "P" goes without saying. As you understand the issues related to the "T", the "U" and the "I" become more evident and the "L" is simply the logical conclusion of the other four points. There are some points where I will intentionally "Play dumb" and say something like "I don't know about man's inability to seek after God, all I know is that without God's divine intervention man WILL NOT seek after God!

The more I ponder the grace that saved me, the less I can explain it. I've come to the conclusion that understanding the Trinity is simple compared to understanding the whole Cal/Arm debate. Personally, I think it's silly trying to argue the points. What matters is Christ and Him crucified and rose again. God rightly judges those who reject Him and saves all who call upon Him in such a manner that only He gets the glory.

 

[Ekklesian]

Are you sure you didn’t have a bowel movement?

Fairly certain. But isn't it interesting that restrooms are called restrooms?

Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[Ekklesian]

Huk, you'll never go to the bathroom again without thinking of me.

You're welcome.

 

[Ekklesian]

My "conversion" experience is a little more succinct. One day I realized I could either:

1. Become an "Open Theist" or
2. Honestly examine "What Saith the Scriptures" and believe what the Bible says!

I was in communication with a gentleman who wanted to start a Church in the Santa Clarita Valley (Southern California) and during this time, was also getting into fights on the old FFF with the likes of Corpsenomore, Smellin Coffee, Justified, Coyote, Dr Bob, and of course our beloved Ransom about silly questions as "For whom did Christ die?" and "What does all mean?" so forth, and so on...

I was getting quite a bit of coaching from my would-be "mentor" until I looked into this Bob Enyart dude who was pretty much his "guru" and discovered the heresy of "Open Theism." I was absolutely repulsed and decided I better to believe my Bible and become a Calvinist than to swallow this other nonsense!

This wasn't my point of conversion but it did cause me to start looking objectively (rather than adversarily) towards the pertinent matters of the debate. I also started attending a Church that was somewhat but not obnoxiously Calvinistic (Amyralidian or Calvinist without the "L") and used the NASB (I was staunch KJV Only). This is where I became the "Strat wailin, bass thumpin, sacred cow tippin, 'Baptist Renegade' that you all know and love today! And now you know.....the rest of the story!

I never really became the ardent, admant, antagonistic Calvinist that likes to run around instigating fights and I really don't care to be "That Guy!" For the most part, I keep my mouth shut about it although those in the know would have a clue regarding my soteriological bent if they sat through one of my Sunday School lessons.

In many respects, I have come around full circle and consider myself more Independant, more Fundamental, and more Baptist than ever before. I am adamant especially about the "T" and the "P" goes without saying. As you understand the issues related to the "T", the "U" and the "I" become more evident and the "L" is simply the logical conclusion of the other four points. There are some points where I will intentionally "Play dumb" and say something like "I don't know about man's inability to seek after God, all I know is that without God's divine intervention man WILL NOT seek after God!

I find that everyone believes in Limited Atonement. The disagreement is over the Limiter. Is it God or man?

 

[AverageJoe]

Huk, you'll never go to the bathroom again without thinking of me.

You're welcome.

That sounds sort of queer to me.

 

[Rockson]

As did I. I've been a believer most of my life. I made a profession as a child. In my college years, suddenly and without warning, I was slammed with an insatiable hunger for the Scriptures, and for the writings of the Reformers.

Sorry Ekklesian but you should have put the scriptures first and not let whatever they called themselves sway you.

The more I learned of them, though, the more rotten I felt. I despaired at the realization of the extent of my sin, and my utter inability to do anything about it.

You could repent and believe the gospel. That's what you COULD DO about it.

One day working my summer job at a camping resort, I was really feeling that burden. (Bunyan painted some apt pictures.) And then a familiar verse was impressed upon me. It was like hearing it for the very first time. "My grace is sufficient for thee."

You still had to do something to receive the grace of God. Believe in your heart (what Jesus came to do) and confess with your mouth the Lordship of Christ. That's something you did to open the door to the grace of God becoming realized in your life.

Little by little my noncalvinist defenses were overcome,

Sorry but you probably did hear enough rebuttals of the Reformed theology you were reading.

and I had to admit that God was God, and that He would have mercy upon whom He would have mercy, and whom He will, He would harden.

And this demonstrates what I said above. You should know you can't just take one verse of scripture from Rom 9:18 and let it stand on it's own. All throughout the scripturas God tells us to whom God will show mercy and to whom he won't. He does this so all people can put themselves in the place where the grace of God can be realized in their lives.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I find that everyone believes in Limited Atonement. The disagreement is over the Limiter. Is it God or man?

It is limited according to God's sovereignty regarding who he elects and it is limited according to man's sinfulness and his willful rejection of the Gospel. Every man without exception is commanded to repent and will stand before God without excuse. Additionally, we are to preach the Gospel to every man without exception and we will be held accountable to God for this. This is where both sides can find common ground.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Huk, you'll never go to the bathroom again without thinking of me.

You're welcome.

Prithee, you do have some odd fixations.

 

[Ekklesian]

Sorry Ekklesian but you should have put the scriptures first and not let whatever they called themselves sway you.

I did put the Scriptures first. I found the Reformers to be eminently loyal to them.

You could repent and believe the gospel. That's what you COULD DO about it

LOL. I was repenting daily.

You still had to do something to receive the grace of God. Believe in your heart (what Jesus came to do) and confess with your mouth the Lordship of Christ. That's something you did to open the door to the grace of God becoming realized in your life.

Actually no. It just happened with no act on my part.

Sorry but you probably did hear enough rebuttals of the Reformed theology you were reading.

And none were satisfying.

 

[Ekklesian]

Prithee, you do have some odd fixations.

What fun is it to dwell in the norm?

 

[Baptist Renegade]

You still had to do something to receive the grace of God. Believe in your heart (what Jesus came to do) and confess with your mouth the Lordship of Christ. That's something you did to open the door to the grace of God becoming realized in your life.

If you believe you are saved because you prayed some "Magic Sinner's Prayer," then you may also wonder "Was I sincere enough? Was I sorry enough? Did I sufficiently repent of my sins? Did I cry enough..." In other words, you are saved because of something YOU DID now aren't you? I certainly do not want to base my assurance on any of this!

Fact of the matter is, on June 21, 1981, I cried out to God and and received the simple message of the Gospel that saved my soul. My salvation was not based on anything I had done or was doing at the time. It was simple, old-fashioned, irresistible, efficacious, regenerative grace and I was simply acknowledging and professing what Christ had just done! I knew none of these fancy 50 cent words back then, all I knew is that I had been miraculously and supernaturally born again by the Spirit of God!

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

My salvation was not based on anything I had done or was doing at the time.

How about a little something called sin??

 

[AverageJoe]

That's a good question, Huk...What ABOUT sin?