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Steven Avery said:
. . . what you believe.
. . . what you believe.
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Hi,
Edward Irving's Incarnational Christology (2002)
David Dorries
http://books.google.com/books?id=fCxw_99L0s0C&pg=PA320
Not being a human person, Christ achieved personal identity when the divine Son received of the Spirit a human nature in the Incarnation.
Many, many more can be given, and this thread has a good number.
One point is simple, Berkhof and Lane were simply working from orthodox trinitarian doctrine, which is why they said that Jesus is not a human person.
FSSL takes the opposite position, so he is not an orthodox trinitarian. It seems that now he is shifting gears, simply trying to say that "human person" should not be a term used. Perhaps a vocabulary or category dissonance. Fair enough.
However, "human person" is the term specifically used by the orthodox trinitarians. (The reason being that their doctrine is built around the distinctions of divine and human persons. Any Christian believer who eschews "persons in the Godhead" is untouched by the whole issue.)
If he is denying their term, FSSL is denying their position.
Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
Steven Avery said:
Edward Irving's Incarnational Christology (2002)
David Dorries
http://books.google.com/books?id=fCxw_99L0s0C&pg=PA320
Not being a human person, Christ achieved personal identity when the divine Son received of the Spirit a human nature in the Incarnation.
Many, many more can be given, and this thread has a good number.
One point is simple, Berkhof and Lane were simply working from orthodox trinitarian doctrine, which is why they said that Jesus is not a human person.
FSSL takes the opposite position, so he is not an orthodox trinitarian. It seems that now he is shifting gears, simply trying to say that "human person" should not be a term used. Perhaps a vocabulary or category dissonance. Fair enough.
However, "human person" is the term specifically used by the orthodox trinitarians. (The reason being that their doctrine is built around the distinctions of divine and human persons. Any Christian believer who eschews "persons in the Godhead" is untouched by the whole issue.)
If he is denying their term, FSSL is denying their position.
Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
Ransom said:
Yep! Your turn Avery!
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Hi,
Here are a start, some of the fundamental verses.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
Colossians 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,
and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him.
Colossians 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen,
calling upon God, and saying,
Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 John 5:6-9
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Acts 8:36-38
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 4:10-12
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
Beyond the fact that many of these verses and sections are multilated in your conflicting versions, if you actually had the pure scriptures above, where would be your struggles?
Pretend that you have a pure Bible in hand (ie. the AV) that you really believe is God's pure word in readable clear English. Where would you struggle?
If you had and knew the pure Bible, (again, pretend) what would be insufficient in these scriptures?
Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
Here are a start, some of the fundamental verses.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
Colossians 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,
and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him.
Colossians 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen,
calling upon God, and saying,
Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 John 5:6-9
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Acts 8:36-38
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 4:10-12
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.
Beyond the fact that many of these verses and sections are multilated in your conflicting versions, if you actually had the pure scriptures above, where would be your struggles?
Pretend that you have a pure Bible in hand (ie. the AV) that you really believe is God's pure word in readable clear English. Where would you struggle?
If you had and knew the pure Bible, (again, pretend) what would be insufficient in these scriptures?
Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
Steven Avery said:
Well then! Since we agree (with the exception of 1 John 5:7), it appears we are ALL Trinitarians!
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Steven Avery said:
So based on his selection of Bible verses, it turns out Avery believes in the Athanasian Creed, and that the orthodox view of the Trinity is that Jesus is a human person, after all!
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Timothy said:
May I rephrase the question to see how it looks in your mirror?
"But to say that the original Greek is hard to read would imply to me that readers would miss important details, or draw conclusions that are false. What exactly are people missing if they are reading the original Greek - you know, the ones that need the easier Bible - in their language?"
Take a look and tell me what you think.
John Wesley could read Greek and used the Greek to prove sprinkling as the only proper form of water baptism. Genuine and wanna-be-scholars of all shades have missed important details and drawn conclusions from the Greek that are false. In light of these facts what do you suggest that we do with the Greek?