Views on teetotalling

[Tarheel Baptist]

I imagine that you teach this to your children?

No, I make sure to delete all the parts of the Bible I think you won't like.

With all due deference, the Bible issues warning after warning concerning the abuse of alcohol.

Thanks.  I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever tempted to abuse it.  Frankly, I have much more trouble refraining from abusing potato chips.

If that ever happens, you could join one of the many AA, Celebrate Recovery or Reformers Unanimous chapters around the world filled with people enjoying the blessings of alcohol...you could just substitute chips.....

 

[ALAYMAN]

11:00 typical Macaurthur fashion overemphasizing Slavery to Alcohol, Slaves were never considered a blessing from God...Later he claims about ration alcohol to water. Can he show where this is commanded? When we get right down to this, here is a hint Johnny Mac, its about self control, you know, its a fruit of the spirit. I can show you were it wasnt.

15:00 Is drinking necessary? No, But again, it is a blessing from God. Why would God allow if it is so "deadly".

17:00 "If you want to avoid drunkeness, is it the best choice"? in typical IFBx fashion, they assume anyone who drinks is getting drunk. My in-laws are not saved, they are wine aficionados, I have never seen them drunk. there are people, even unsaved people who have enough self control never to allow themselves to get drunk.

20:00 misquotes Leviticus and again assumes everyone is getting drunk . When will IFBx ever believe this?

22:00 Nazerites should also never cut their hair and never be around dead people, so dont go to a funeral, and dont eat jelly with your PB.

25:00 Calls John the Baptist the greatest man up to his time, because in the context of his sermon, But Jesus said to the MacArthurs Pharisees,
Matt 11:18-19 18 For John didn’t spend his time eating and drinking, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man,[f] on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’ But wisdom is shown to be right by its results.” NLT

26:00 Ok, let me get this straight, No alcohol, but, drugs and pain pills are ok??

Wow, it getting late, Ill, maybe pick this up tommorow, gotta run in the morning,  Johnny Mac *shaking head*

I'm crushed.  I thought fer sure that you would be converted after hearing the truth.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I imagine that you teach this to your children?

No, I make sure to delete all the parts of the Bible I think you won't like.

With all due deference, the Bible issues warning after warning concerning the abuse of alcohol. In fact, for every verse you can find encouraging one to drink alcohol....post a few for me if you don't mind....there are verses warning about alcohol consumption.


I do not drink...never have.
I do not think drinking is a sin, but being drunk is a sin.
I do not believe drinking alcohol is encouraged or blessed by Scripture...in fact, like borrowing money, it comes with a warning!

If its not a blessing, could you exegete Is. 55:1 for me then?

You mean whether it meant goat or cows milk?
What wine meant?
What the water means?

You gotta do better than that to show scripture encourages alcohol consumption.

Wine is a mocker...beer is a brawler...a fool is deceived by such.....needs little or no exegeting.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=16KJV11]And today, bringing it into the home would be a detrimental lesson to my children and a temptation to indulge.
In fact, I bring my oldest son with me to the local mission when I preach so he can get a good idea of where many who indulge too much end up.[/quote]

So it would be a detrimental lesson to teach children how to responsibly behave around things that could be harmful if overindulged? I guess that's kind of like those people who teach kids how to handle firearms safely by refusing to teach their kids about firearms...or something.

Or we should only teach people by pointing to the extremes and using examples of obvious abuse? I guess this one would be similar to teaching people that all sex is bad because there is a child porn ring somewhere.

:-\

 

[Castor Muscular]

[quote author=16KJV11]And today, bringing it into the home would be a detrimental lesson to my children and a temptation to indulge.
In fact, I bring my oldest son with me to the local mission when I preach so he can get a good idea of where many who indulge too much end up.

So it would be a detrimental lesson to teach children how to responsibly behave around things that could be harmful if overindulged? I guess that's kind of like those people who teach kids how to handle firearms safely by refusing to teach their kids about firearms...or something.

Or we should only teach people by pointing to the extremes and using examples of obvious abuse? I guess this one would be similar to teaching people that all sex is bad because there is a child porn ring somewhere.

:-\
[/quote]

Hey kids, today we're going to a hospice for dying AIDS patients, so you can see what happens if you have sex. 

 

[Torrent v.3]

If wine and strong drink are a blessing from God (and the Bible says they are) then receiving that blessing and enjoying it makes my life better.

I imagine that you teach this to your children?

I do, certainly, because it is clearly what the Bible teaches. Are you saying that you don't because you have more wisdom than God?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=16KJV11]And today, bringing it into the home would be a detrimental lesson to my children and a temptation to indulge.
In fact, I bring my oldest son with me to the local mission when I preach so he can get a good idea of where many who indulge too much end up.

So it would be a detrimental lesson to teach children how to responsibly behave around things that could be harmful if overindulged? I guess that's kind of like those people who teach kids how to handle firearms safely by refusing to teach their kids about firearms...or something.

Or we should only teach people by pointing to the extremes and using examples of obvious abuse? I guess this one would be similar to teaching people that all sex is bad because there is a child porn ring somewhere.

:-\
[/quote]


I just chose to simply give my kids the Bible warnings against alcohol abuse.
In fact, there are warnings against alcohol use...just as there are warnings against usury and debt.

That is a valid comparison as opposed to the hysterical 'sex is wrong' comparisons used by those who can't tell an apple from an orange.

Nobody at the end of their life ever said wish I'd spent more time under the influence.....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If wine and strong drink are a blessing from God (and the Bible says they are) then receiving that blessing and enjoying it makes my life better.

I imagine that you teach this to your children?

I do, certainly, because it is clearly what the Bible teaches. Are you saying that you don't because you have more wisdom than God?

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I just chose to simply give my kids the Bible warnings against alcohol abuse.
In fact, there are warnings against alcohol use...just as there are warnings against usury and debt.[/quote]

And illicit sex...

Of course, there are all those verses talking about the appropriate outlets for sexual desire...oh yeah, and the appropriate usage of alcoholic substances.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That is a valid comparison as opposed to the hysterical 'sex is wrong' comparisons used by those who can't tell an apple from an orange.[/quote]

How is comparing the abuse of one thing to the abuse of another thing apples and oranges?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Nobody at the end of their life ever said wish I'd spent more time under the influence.....[/quote]

Ahh...and here is the answer to the previous question. It relies on the idea that one cannot drink any alcohol without abusing it. Personally, I try to steer clear of such blatant gnostic teachings.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I just chose to simply give my kids the Bible warnings against alcohol abuse.
In fact, there are warnings against alcohol use...just as there are warnings against usury and debt.

And illicit sex...

Of course, there are all those verses talking about the appropriate outlets for sexual desire...oh yeah, and the appropriate usage of alcoholic substances.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That is a valid comparison as opposed to the hysterical 'sex is wrong' comparisons used by those who can't tell an apple from an orange.[/quote]

How is comparing the abuse of one thing to the abuse of another thing apples and oranges?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Nobody at the end of their life ever said wish I'd spent more time under the influence.....[/quote]

Ahh...and here is the answer to the previous question. It relies on the idea that one cannot drink any alcohol without abusing it. Personally, I try to steer clear of such blatant gnostic teachings.
[/quote]

I don't get your point.

Comparing apples to oranges is a comparison, just not a valid one...

And you are ignorant, willfully or otherwise, as to my point, and my stated belief about alcohol consumption.
I avoid false teaching as well...but don't do the same with the truth. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

But what about the verse that says buy anything your heart desires?
You should buy a few slaves, a couple of concubines and the east coast rights to heroin distribution!

Prude! 

Those things God don't call a blessing. but mentioning that verse you have to explain it then dont you?  actually I think you will avoid it all together

What wine meant?

Water means water and wine (yayin) mean alcoholic wine, the same stuff Jesus drank (onios) the same stuff Melchizedek served Abraham, same stuff Boaz drank. you see people in the Bible drank responsibly.....
You see, I call myself recovering ifb because it was coming to this knowledge on the study of alcohol that shook the very foundations I thought were the truth, I stopped listening to my pastor and started to search the Scriptures myself. And it literally rocked my world!! I literally spent weeks in a tailspin wondering what else I ever learned was I following, that was actually man made rules. I never questioned Jesus, but what about music? dress? community? how I treat my wife? my children? everything.. now Im just putting things back together....

But you know what? It doesnt matter anymore, you wont listen. You are too entrenched in your Finneyistic teachings of moral-isms that I am starting to think that you wouldn't recognize grace if it slapped you in the face. I feel sorry for your congregation that have to sit under you, that do not get to hear the riches of Christ's mercy, only if they havent been sent to hell already is probably the extent of it. You probably blast your sermons more on "standards' rather the pure, beautiful Gospel.

Maybe, someday, Jesus will reveal Himself to you this knowledge and free your people

Colossians 2:13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. 18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, 19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

 

[Castor Muscular]

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

There are no verses that say "I want you to drink" anymore than there are verses that say, "I want you to have sex" (be fruitful and multiply is not the same as "have sex"). 

I teach them the whole truth, not just that God gave us wine and strong drink as a blessing.  I also teach them that, like almost everything, it can be abused.  And that's bad.  It's a pretty simple message, really, and they understand it. 

 

[Biker]

I Strengthen My Nation

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

But what about the verse that says buy anything your heart desires?
You should buy a few slaves, a couple of concubines and the east coast rights to heroin distribution!

Prude! 

Those things God don't call a blessing. but mentioning that verse you have to explain it then dont you?  actually I think you will avoid it all together

What wine meant?

Water means water and wine (yayin) mean alcoholic wine, the same stuff Jesus drank (onios) the same stuff Melchizedek served Abraham, same stuff Boaz drank. you see people in the Bible drank responsibly.....
You see, I call myself recovering ifb because it was coming to this knowledge on the study of alcohol that shook the very foundations I thought were the truth, I stopped listening to my pastor and started to search the Scriptures myself. And it literally rocked my world!! I literally spent weeks in a tailspin wondering what else I ever learned was I following, that was actually man made rules. I never questioned Jesus, but what about music? dress? community? how I treat my wife? my children? everything.. now Im just putting things back together....

But you know what? It doesnt matter anymore, you wont listen. You are too entrenched in your Finneyistic teachings of moral-isms that I am starting to think that you wouldn't recognize grace if it slapped you in the face. I feel sorry for your congregation that have to sit under you, that do not get to hear the riches of Christ's mercy, only if they havent been sent to hell already is probably the extent of it. You probably blast your sermons more on "standards' rather the pure, beautiful Gospel.

Maybe, someday, Jesus will reveal Himself to you this knowledge and free your people

Colossians 2:13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.

16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. 18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, 19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

I love the smell of judgment and hypocrisy in the morning.......you can take the man out of fundy land but you can't take the fundy land out of the man, I guess

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

There are no verses that say "I want you to drink" anymore than there are verses that say, "I want you to have sex" (be fruitful and multiply is not the same as "have sex"). 

I teach them the whole truth, not just that God gave us wine and strong drink as a blessing.  I also teach them that, like almost everything, it can be abused.  And that's bad.  It's a pretty simple message, really, and they understand it.

I'm just asking where are all of the verses...passages extolling the virtues of drinking?

My position on drinking has been stated clearly...drunkeness, not drinking is a sin. But scripture almost always gives a warning about alcohol....it doesn't encourage and offer blessing to those who drink it.....

 

[Recovering IFB]

Judges 9:13, psalm 104... There're there, you should look and not ask Finney first...

 

[rsc2a]

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

There are no verses that say "I want you to drink" anymore than there are verses that say, "I want you to have sex" (be fruitful and multiply is not the same as "have sex"). 

I teach them the whole truth, not just that God gave us wine and strong drink as a blessing.  I also teach them that, like almost everything, it can be abused.  And that's bad.  It's a pretty simple message, really, and they understand it.

I'm just asking where are all of the verses...passages extolling the virtues of drinking?

My position on drinking has been stated clearly...drunkeness, not drinking is a sin. But scripture almost always gives a warning about alcohol....it doesn't encourage and offer blessing to those who drink it.....

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15, ESV)

On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. (Isaiah 25:6, ESV)

Gladness and joy have been taken away from the fruitful land of Moab; I have made the wine cease from the winepresses; no one treads them with shouts of joy; the shouting is not the shout of joy. (Jeremiah 48:33, ESV)

********

Actually, the whole idea behind wine in the OT is that it is a blessing and God withholding it was a sign of judgment.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

There are no verses that say "I want you to drink" anymore than there are verses that say, "I want you to have sex" (be fruitful and multiply is not the same as "have sex"). 

I teach them the whole truth, not just that God gave us wine and strong drink as a blessing.  I also teach them that, like almost everything, it can be abused.  And that's bad.  It's a pretty simple message, really, and they understand it.

I'm just asking where are all of the verses...passages extolling the virtues of drinking?

My position on drinking has been stated clearly...drunkeness, not drinking is a sin. But scripture almost always gives a warning about alcohol....it doesn't encourage and offer blessing to those who drink it.....

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. (Psalm 104:14-15, ESV)

On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. (Isaiah 25:6, ESV)

Gladness and joy have been taken away from the fruitful land of Moab; I have made the wine cease from the winepresses; no one treads them with shouts of joy; the shouting is not the shout of joy. (Jeremiah 48:33, ESV)

********

Actually, the whole idea behind wine in the OT is that it is a blessing and God withholding it was a sign of judgment.

Again, you are welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Texts, from both secular and religious writings, makes it abundantly clear that the Greek word oinos, like the Latin vinum and the English wine, was often used as a generic term to refer either to fermented or unfermented grape juice.

I am not arguing it is a sin to take a drink...but, this 'God wants you to kill a beer after work at the local bar' argument is bogus.

Do YOU believe every reference to wine is scripture is to fermented, alcoholic beverage?
Again, I am not arguing drinking is sinful...being drunk IS...don't you agree?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Judges 9:13, psalm 104... There're there, you should look and not ask Finney first...

You should look at some passages about practicing what you condemn in others.
Now, you made accusations, assumptions and judgments about me that, anyone who really knows me and my 31 year ministry, would say are false.....you are still a good fundy!
Kudos!

 

[Castor Muscular]

If wine and strong drink are a blessing from God (and the Bible says they are) then receiving that blessing and enjoying it makes my life better.

I imagine that you teach this to your children?

I do, certainly, because it is clearly what the Bible teaches. Are you saying that you don't because you have more wisdom than God?

What verses do you use to teach your children God wants them to drink and blesses them for it?

(later, paraphrasing)

Where does the Bible extols the virtues of drinking?

You're being intellectually dishonest and immature here with your straw man arguments.  I said (as have others) that the Bible says wine and strong drink are a blessing.  You keep changing that into stuff like "God wants you to drink", which we all know appears nowhere in the Bible directly, although its virtue in certain cases is stated -- rejoicing, forgetting your misery for a while, easing your pain as you perish, etc. 

In addition, the favorite verse of anti-alcohol people, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" cannot mean what you think it means if the Bible elsewhere names alcohol as a blessing.  I think what you're missing is, "whoever is deceived by them is not wise", just as whoever is deceived by his/her taste for salty fat and eats a family size bag of potato chips in one sitting is not being wise. 

EDIT:  I kind of like that, actually.  The Bible should include a verse like, "Potato chips are a mocker, and deep fried cheese sticks are a stomach brawler.  Whoever is deceived by them is a fool."  And...

"Do not gaze at a bowl of nachos when it is yellow, dripping with melted cheese.  In the end it fattens like a bucket of lard."