Thoughts on church worldliness and "relevance"

[jimmudcatgrant]

R2 said, "Biblical standards are necessary. Your extra-Biblical ones are not."

What extra-biblical standards are you talking about?  Please tell me, and if I agree, I will give you bible that supports my position.  Name them.  Well?

Rock music, skits in church, alcohol consumption, entertaining church services.

(Those are off the top of my head since it's what we've discussed on this thread.)

1. Rock music is not biblical, nor moral.  I have already given my proofs on that, i.e., spiritual songs, pslams, hymns.  You choose to disregard that scripture.

2. Never said skits were wrong, only ungodly ones.

3.  Alcohol consumption is condemned in multiple situations in the bible.  I can't list them all, but Naves does. Look at all the instances that things holy and set apart for God prohibited the use of alcohol.  Nazarite vow, temple, tabernacle, priest doing their duty, etc.  Be not drunk with wine.  Wine is a mocker, etc.

4.  Church services weren't meant to entertain, but to disciple and evangelize. Define what you mean by entertain before I comment further.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

R2 says, "* And to clarify, I wouldn't want alcohol in a church service (possible exception for wine at communion) because of weaker brothers. It would have nothing to do with modern day Pharisees and their un-Biblical standards."

My, my, aren't you quite the little hypocrite.  So concerned about the weaker brother in church.  But out of church, who cares, right?  Why not in church if it's ok out of church?  Can't the weaker brother be found in both instances?

I'm pretty sure I have a general awareness of the spiritual condition of the people living in my house.  :

I wouldn't count on it.  God forbid that you hurt one of his little ones.  It would be better to have a millstone hanged around you neck and be thrown into the sea.

How about you let me parent my own children and keep your stupid little comments to yourself?

I don't care what you do with your children, but God does.  You throw out your ungodly world view and you will be challenged on it.  If you don't like it, then don't post your laciviousness for all to see.
And you can take the millstone part up with God.  It's his word, not mine.

 

[Izdaari]

You said I should drop the "Reformed" label (which I haven't put on, but that's neither here nor there). I've always said I'm "Reformed-ish". If you knew anything at all about determinism, my claim to be a determinist would automatically give you an understanding of how I can be "Reformed-ish".

That made me chuckle.  ;D

I guess I am Lutheran-ish.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Alayman has just pulled out of the black hole that is known as trying to discuss with Rsc2a and now jimmudcatgrant is about to be sucked into the vortex!

Yep, yep, yep.  Some of us never learn.

 

[rsc2a]

1. Rock music is not biblical, nor moral.  I have already given my proofs on that, i.e., spiritual songs, pslams, hymns.  You choose to disregard that scripture.

I posted the lyrics to some rock music. Go ahead and show me how it doesn't fit your (erroneous) definition of "spiritual songs". I'll be waiting...



[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]2. Never said skits were wrong, only ungodly ones.[/quote]

The opposing argument has been that skits are wrong, no distinctions. Furthermore, can you provide an example of where a church is performing ungodly skits?



[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]3.  Alcohol consumption is condemned in multiple situations in the bible.  I can't list them all, but Naves does. Look at all the instances that things holy and set apart for God prohibited the use of alcohol.  Nazarite vow, temple, tabernacle, priest doing their duty, etc.  Be not drunk with wine.  Wine is a mocker, etc.[/quote]

Really...that's laughable.

- You realize that wine was part of the mandated levitical offerings, right?
- You realize the Bible says to drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has approved what you do?
- You realize that Jesus used wine during the Last Supper?
- You realize that Jesus asked for wine while hanging on the cross?
- You realize that Jesus actually created wine...and a lot of it?

...and just the first point is enough to damn your entire argument.

(And, so you know, drunkenness is condemned. Not all consumption.)

[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]4.  Church services weren't meant to entertain, but to disciple and evangelize. Define what you mean by entertain before I comment further.[/quote]

Do you have a problem with discipling, evanglelizing services that are also entertaining?

 

[Izdaari]

- You realize that wine was part of the mandated levitical offerings, right?
- You realize the Bible says to drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has approved what you do?
- You realize that Jesus used wine during the Last Supper?
- You realize that Jesus asked for wine while hanging on the cross?
- You realize that Jesus actually created wine...and a lot of it?

...and just the first point is enough to damn your entire argument.

(And, so you know, drunkenness is condemned. Not all consumption.)

My new church uses wine for communion (but also offers grape juice for those who prefer it). It's a small thing, but I like it because it's more biblical and more in keeping with the historic Christian tradition.

 

[El Cid]

Okay, I see the views and think I understand how both sides think.  My question is, how do we interpret 1 John 2:15?  Love not the world.  How do we determine what the world is? 

I know some will say pants on womens, drinking wine, smoking, rock and roll, etc.  but for those who are more under Grace, how do you determine what is worldly?

 

[rsc2a]

Okay, I see the views and think I understand how both sides think.  My question is, how do we interpret 1 John 2:15?  Love not the world.  How do we determine what the world is? 

I know some will say pants on womens, drinking wine, smoking, rock and roll, etc.  but for those who are more under Grace, how do you determine what is worldly?

I'll dump a lot of Scripture on you showing what is opposed to "the world". Instead on focusing on how Christians shouldn't live, I'll focus on how Christians should live (through which there will be obvious corollaries about how we shouldn't live).

[size=7pt]

 

[FSSL]

I see you skipped over the verses that talk about the evil off beat in music!

 

[El Cid]

Okay, I see the views and think I understand how both sides think.  My question is, how do we interpret 1 John 2:15?  Love not the world.  How do we determine what the world is? 

I know some will say pants on womens, drinking wine, smoking, rock and roll, etc.  but for those who are more under Grace, how do you determine what is worldly?

I'll dump a lot of Scripture on you showing what is opposed to "the world". Instead on focusing on how Christians shouldn't live, I'll focus on how Christians should live (through which there will be obvious corollaries about how we shouldn't live).

[size=7pt]

 

[themagneticfields]

Yes, as do we believe that all are welcome (assuming they aren't disruptive) too, but we don't present invitations to our service in a way that sublimates the propositional and unequivocal truth that Christ is revealed in the word, and we tell them that is our purpose for meeting.

And Vintage does the same, but they want to make it clear that sermons will address concerns of seekers and doubters as well as followers.

As for welcoming seekers and doubters, 1 Corinthians 14 gives an example of why we may want to:
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."

The unbeliever can see the truth of God through followers in a church service.

 

[rsc2a]

I didn't see the word worldy or world in any of those verses.

Yes. It is important not to treat the Bible like a crossword puzzle or mad lib. Or as I've heard someone call it, to commit word search fallacies.

Word search fallacy: to assume because the Bible doesn't use a certain word, it cannot be speaking about said word

[quote author=El Cid]How do you determine when something is of the world. [/quote]

The Bible says to live Godly lives and not like the 'world'. When the Bible says you like should look like "this", that would mean "this" is Godly. When the Bible says you shouldn't live like "that", it would mean that "that" is of the 'world'.

 

[Bob]

1. Rock music is not biblical, nor moral.  I have already given my proofs on that, i.e., spiritual songs, pslams, hymns.  You choose to disregard that scripture.

I posted the lyrics to some rock music. Go ahead and show me how it doesn't fit your (erroneous) definition of "spiritual songs". I'll be waiting...



[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]2. Never said skits were wrong, only ungodly ones.

The opposing argument has been that skits are wrong, no distinctions. Furthermore, can you provide an example of where a church is performing ungodly skits?



[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]3.  Alcohol consumption is condemned in multiple situations in the bible.  I can't list them all, but Naves does. Look at all the instances that things holy and set apart for God prohibited the use of alcohol.  Nazarite vow, temple, tabernacle, priest doing their duty, etc.  Be not drunk with wine.  Wine is a mocker, etc.[/quote]

Really...that's laughable.

- You realize that wine was part of the mandated levitical offerings, right?
- You realize the Bible says to drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has approved what you do?
- You realize that Jesus used wine during the Last Supper?
- You realize that Jesus asked for wine while hanging on the cross?
- You realize that Jesus actually created wine...and a lot of it?

...and just the first point is enough to damn your entire argument.

(And, so you know, drunkenness is condemned. Not all consumption.)

[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]4.  Church services weren't meant to entertain, but to disciple and evangelize. Define what you mean by entertain before I comment further.[/quote]

Do you have a problem with discipling, evanglelizing services that are also entertaining?
[/quote]

You bore me with your whining, endless quotations and long posts.

 

[FSSL]

The world knows what we are AGAINST... it does not know what we are FOR.

~ Mark Hall at the Casting Crowns concert we attended last night.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

The world knows what we are AGAINST... it does not know what we are FOR.

~ Mark Hall at the Casting Crowns concert we attended last night.

That's because the freedom of speech for Christians has been taken out of schools, universities, and most work places.  You can't say that Jesus died for our sins, was buried or raised the third day, nor pray a prayer in Jesus' name.  That's the way the world wants it.  It doesn't want to hear the name of Jesus. And since the world doesn't attend church, then it only hears the tainted witness of the secular humanist media.  I will say this in my life:  The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus didn't mean anything to me until I realized that I was a sinner.  Thank God for those who were against sin.

 

[Izdaari]

The world knows what we are AGAINST... it does not know what we are FOR.

~ Mark Hall at the Casting Crowns concert we attended last night.

That's because the freedom of speech for Christians has been taken out of schools, universities, and most work places.  You can't say that Jesus died for our sins, was buried or raised the third day, nor pray a prayer in Jesus' name.  That's the way the world wants it.  It doesn't want to hear the name of Jesus. And since the world doesn't attend church, then it only hears the tainted witness of the secular humanist media.  I will say this in my life:  The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus didn't mean anything to me until I realized that I was a sinner.  Thank God for those who were against sin.

Against sin! Say it ain't so, Jim! 

J/K

ALL of us itt are against sin. But we do differ on what methods are most effective in combating it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

If the church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher. The proper, ruler-of-the-synagogue type will never do. Neither will the priestly type of man who carries out his duties, takes his pay and asks no questions, nor the smooth-talking pastoral type who knows how to make the Christian religion acceptable to everyone. All these have been tried and found wanting. Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many) he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom.--Tozer


And speaking of worldliness in the church via "entertainment"...


As soon as you try to turn the flock everybody says you

 

[FSSL]

The real question is "What is Alayman FOR?" We know quite well that Alayman is against FAR MORE than the devil, worldliness and sin...

Too bad he will not see the importance of this question. That is why he snipped off the quote in his OP. He is AGAINST that too.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Facepalm quote of the day:

History shows that when the church accomodates the culture, it <the accomodation, and culture> actually weakens it <the church>.---America's Pastor, Rick Warren on ABC's "This Week"


lol, if it weren't so pathetically ironic.



On a conciliatory note, I did enjoy most of the rest of his interview, other than referring to Catholics as "my brothers and sisters".

 

[FSSL]

As if Alayman would agree with Warren on any level when it comes to ministry and culture....