There Are No Infants in Hell

[Ransom]

I’m sure I’m not the only one on this forum who has had an infant or small child taken away by some tragic event

Fortunately, the truth is not determined by what you find hard to believe because of your experiences.

 

[biscuit1953]

Fortunately, the truth is not determined by what you find hard to believe because of your experiences.

You have a twisted theology.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

There are a few things that we are told, though, that are hard to reconcile with Alcorn's notions. One is that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. And a big part of Alcorn's list is a host of things that men have seen and heard and desired for a happy life here in this existence.

Another one is that we are resurrected to a nature wholly different than the one we knew here. (We who are saved, that is) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. - Matthew 22:30

It is not a return to the idyllic existence of the Garden, in which marriage and procreation free of suffering and death was the main purpose of their existence. In salvation, we're not merely forgiven of sin. We are begotten of God. We become partakers of the divine nature. That was not true of Adam or Eve. They were made by God, not born of Him. What will be made manifest in the Resurrection is that we are the sons of God. (1 Peter 1:3, 2 Peter 1:4)

We are told that this corruption will put on incorruption. What's laid in the grave is a natural body, but what is raised is a spiritual one. Paul compared it to a seed. He said what comes up is not what was planted. There is no comparison between a rose in bloom and the dead husk that was planted to grow it.

And as far as knowledge is concerned, we will know as we are known, because we will see Him as He is. (1 Corinthians 13:12, 1 John 3:2)

Many of Alcorn's observations are speculative and to be taken with a grain of salt. He says as much himself.

There is a misconception that there will be will know "all things" and that there is no more need of learning in our glorified state. I would take serious exception to this for numerous reasons already stated.

We are "born of God" but what exactly does this mean aside from being raised incorruptible and being made joint heirs with Christ? Are you trying to say that we will obtain certain attributes of "divinity" as Kenneth Copeland and all the other "Word of Faith" types try to assert? I agree that our redemption far exceeds a restoration to the "Edenic Paradise" that Adam and Eve previously enjoyed. We will also not "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" as in the age to come, we will neither marry or be given in marriage (Mt 22:30).

What is understood though is that there are differing degrees of glory in heaven which is based not only upon our faithfulness but (I believe) also upon the opportunites we have had in our present lives. Could we say that someone who dies in infancy would have equal reward with someone like the Apostle Paul or others who have faithfully endured trials and persecution while being faithful to the gospel of Christ? Will someone who dies in adolescence only learning the basics of "readin, riting, and rithmatic" in grammar school be of the same intellectual stature as a PhD who has had a lifetime of academic pursuits? I guess it comes down to what exactly it is that we are able to take with us into the "eternal state?" It is understood that riches and material gain will all perish but what about all the things we have learned in this life that make us who and what we are? When we meet in glory, you will still be "Ekklesian" (or whatever your name is in the "real world") and I will still be who I am but what is it that makes us who and what we are aside from our life experiences that have shaped us?

I would therefore say that one who dies in infancy will not remain an infant for all of eternity. They also will not become instantly mature adults just having knowledge, wisdom, and character development infused into them without going through some sort of learning process. Those who have lived a full life have had a significant "head start" and those who died in infancy and childhood will progress into eternity from wherever they left off in this present age.

I can imagine an unborn child who was murdered at the hands of an abortionist getting to live the life he or she was robbed of growing up and coming of age in a perfect and sinless environment - perhaps raised and mentored by those who never had opportunity to experience the joys of parenthood in this age?

 

[Ekklesian]

Many of Alcorn's observations are speculative and to be taken with a grain of salt. He says as much himself.

There is a misconception that there will be will know "all things" and that there is no more need of learning in our glorified state. I would take serious exception to this for numerous reasons already stated.

Well one thing is for certain, we will have none of the corporeal or temporal limitations imposed upon us now.

We are "born of God" but what exactly does this mean aside from being raised incorruptible and being made joint heirs with Christ?

One thing that comes immediately to mind is eternal life. God is described as eternal. The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms. That means more than merely no ending. It also means no beginning. We are given eternal life.

Another thing is that we partake of His incorruptible nature. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - 1 John 3:9 (I think Romans 7 is a good place to start with understanding John's words.)

Those are the two biggies, I think.

Are you trying to say that we will obtain certain attributes of "divinity" as Kenneth Copeland and all the other "Word of Faith" types try to assert?

Don't be silly.

I agree that our redemption far exceeds a restoration to the "Edenic Paradise" that Adam and Eve previously enjoyed. We will also not "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" as in the age to come, we will neither marry or be given in marriage (Mt 22:30).

That's hard to disagree with considering the Scriptures state it outright.

What is understood though is that there are differing degrees of glory in heaven which is based not only upon our faithfulness but (I believe) also upon the opportunites we have had in our present lives. Could we say that someone who dies in infancy would have equal reward with someone like the Apostle Paul or others who have faithfully endured trials and persecution while being faithful to the gospel of Christ? Will someone who dies in adolescence only learning the basics of "readin, riting, and rithmatic" in grammar school be of the same intellectual stature as a PhD who has had a lifetime of academic pursuits?

If the parable of the rich man and lazarus is any indication, yes, and probably more. But what advantage is any of that to winning Christ and being found in Him? None. In fact, they're to be counted as a loss.

I hope you're not basing your idea of 'degrees of glory' on 1 Corinthians 15:41, which has nothing to do with rewards for faithfulness. That passage is only an amplification of the difference between the our natural and glorified bodies.

I guess it comes down to what exactly it is that we are able to take with us into the "eternal state?"

Nothing. Only the righteousness we have in Christ.

It is understood that riches and material gain will all perish but what about all the things we have learned in this life that make us who and what we are? When we meet in glory, you will still be "Ekklesian" (or whatever your name is in the "real world") and I will still be who I am but what is it that makes us who and what we are aside from our life experiences that have shaped us?

We will be given a white stone, and in that stone a new name written which no man knows except he that received it. We will have a whole new identity as sons of God. There won't be any 'Simon bar Jonah' or 'son of Jesse.' All earthly ties and loyalties will be dissolved. We will be without husband or wife, we will be without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; ...

for...

When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

I would therefore say that one who dies in infancy will not remain an infant for all of eternity. They also will not become instantly mature adults just having knowledge, wisdom, and character development infused into them without going through some sort of learning process.

We are told we shall be changed in an instant. In the twinkling of an eye.

Those who have lived a full life have had a significant "head start" and those who died in infancy and childhood will progress into eternity from wherever they left off in this present age.

You say that with no Scriptural foundation.

I can imagine an unborn child who was murdered at the hands of an abortionist getting to live the life he or she was robbed of growing up and coming of age in a perfect and sinless environment - perhaps raised and mentored by those who never had opportunity to experience the joys of parenthood in this age?

What about those who've died as embryos? To rephrase a question posed by X-Files in another place, are there incubators in heaven?

 

[Ekklesian]

I’m sure I’m not the only one on this forum who has had an infant or small child taken away by some tragic event and we are to believe that some day at the last judgment, these little ones will stand before God to be judged according to their works, only to be damned for eternity because they refused to repent and believe the gospel. I agree with Charles Spurgeon that said, "It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true."

I can see a rational discussion is going to be impossible with you. And I think Spurgeon was inhaling his cigars when he said that. Because he certainly has no Scripture.

If you're going to insist that there is a way for one to enter the presence of the Father other than by grace through faith because of your emotional attachment to a child you once knew, then your love is not for the child who was, nor is it for the Father or His Son, or for the Work He did.

Your love is for yourself, and for your cherished illusions.

 

[Ekklesian]

"It is not a return to the idyllic existence of the Garden, in which marriage and procreation free of suffering and death was the main purpose of their existence." - You're missing the millions, yeah, billions that are ALIVE at the end of the Millenium and go into eternity ALIVE.

You're reading Revelation all wrong.

 

[IFB X-Files]

You're reading Revelation all wrong.

Oh.... well, do share where it says everybody dies.

 

[Ransom]

You have a twisted theology.

No, I have a theology that doesn't change when things get personal.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Well one thing is for certain, we will have none of the corporeal or temporal limitations imposed upon us now.

Absolutely! In our glorified state, we will have far greater capacity for reason and understanding. I may have to study up on quantum physics (if such even ends up being a real thing) but I will have the intellectual capacity to grasp such things. Not so sure about it in this life!

One thing that comes immediately to mind is eternal life. God is described as eternal. The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms. That means more than merely no ending. It also means no beginning. We are given eternal life.

But we do have a beginning. There was a time when we were not and now we are! This is an irrefutable fact that cannot be changed! God alone is eternally existent with no beginning or end. We have a beginning.

Now perhaps we could invoke Ephesians 1:4 and irritate some of the "Free Willies." We acknowledge that we are "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" pretty much meaning we have been "Chosen in him" for all of eternity but the beginning of our existence has a specific place and time that will never change.

Another thing is that we partake of His incorruptible nature. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - 1 John 3:9 (I think Romans 7 is a good place to start with understanding John's words.)

Yes, we are partakers of his incorruptible nature. Adam, when he was created, had a corruptible nature (posse peccare) and because of his fall, we have a corrupted nature (non-posse non-peccare). When we are raised up and glorified in him, we will be incorruptible and incapable of sin (non-posse pecarre)!

Don't be silly.

Just making sure you are awake!

That's hard to disagree with considering the Scriptures state it outright.

Yep

If the parable of the rich man and lazarus is any indication, yes, and probably more. But what advantage is any of that to winning Christ and being found in Him? None. In fact, they're to be counted as a loss.

Both died but both were cognizant of the lives they lived on the earth. I think it is fair to say that what they have experienced define who they are. The rich man died in his sin and is tormented as a result. I would say the beattitudes (Mt 5:2-12) would describe the comfort that Lazarus was experiencing and will experience at the resurrection.

I hope you're not basing your idea of 'degrees of glory' on 1 Corinthians 15:41, which has nothing to do with rewards for faithfulness. That passage is only an amplification of the difference between the our natural and glorified bodies.

I was but then I thought better of it. The scriptures I am thinking of that do make my point are "To whom much is given, much shall be required" (Lk 12:48) and 2 Cor 4:17 - "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" Also Lk 6:23, 35.

Nothing. Only the righteousness we have in Christ.

Jesus expressly told us to "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven..." Mt 6:20

We will be given a white stone, and in that stone a new name written which no man knows except he that received it. We will have a whole new identity as sons of God. There won't be any 'Simon bar Jonah' or 'son of Jesse.' All earthly ties and loyalties will be dissolved. We will be without husband or wife, we will be without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; ...

There are those who say that any and all memory of our former life will be wiped away but if such were the case, we (the person we are right now) WILL NOT actually enter into Heaven! We would be effectively annihilated and replaced by some other being that is completely unrecognizable! Pete Ruckman says we will all be 33-year-old Jewish males in heaven. I would say that the first would be heretical and the second is just ridiculous!

The same argument is made regarding the "new heavens and the new earth" whether the old is destroyed and replaced with something new or is it renovated and restored being the same heavens and earth that God originally created and called "good?" The new heaven and new earth will be familiar to us, not something that is foreign and unrecognizable! As with the resurrection of our bodies, we may not consist of the same exact atoms and molecules that form us now but we will certainly be who we are right now except that we will be glorified and like Christ. We will look like ourselves and those who knew each other in their former lives will recognize each other but we will be like Christ!

We will no longer be married but we will know and recognize who we were once married to and what was experienced together as "husband and wife" will forever be a part of who we are! Same with our kids and others whose lives we have impacted and others have impacted ours. The Parable of the Unjust Steward gives us some good insight here.

We are told we shall be changed in an instant. In the twinkling of an eye.

Changed into what? Into 33-year-old male facsimiles of Jesus?

We will be changed, transformed and glorified into the image of Christ but how exactly will we look? I do not think a man who died at 80 will look like he is 80 years-old but then what did an 80-year old Adam look like (who lived to be over 900 years old) and how would a man look as he grew older if there never was a fall? We do not know, do we?

You say that with no Scriptural foundation.

I admit that I am speculating and scriptures do not expressly state what things will be like in our eternal state but are you saying the life we life now will have no impact on who we are in eternity? In our eternal state, we will serve the Lord, we reign with him, and we will labor but whatever labor we do will be joyous and most satisfying.

What about those who've died as embryos? To rephrase a question posed by X-Files in another place, are there incubators in heaven?

I do not think they will be embryos in heaven. They may not even be infants. They will be different from those who actually got to live and do not have the experience of a former life to reflect upon as we will. I do not see God just infusing knowledge into our brains the same way we upload programs into our computers! Learning is a process and it is the learning process that makes the acquisition of knowledge and wisdom most gratifying! We are too seek the Lord and his unsearchable riches. God will not just "give" such things to us in this age or the age to come!

I think most would agree that those who diligently study and search the scriptures in this life will have that much more of a head start and appreciation of the "life to come" and that such is truly treasure that we are able to lay up in heaven!

 

[Baptist Renegade]

"It is not a return to the idyllic existence of the Garden, in which marriage and procreation free of suffering and death was the main purpose of their existence." - You're missing the millions, yeah, billions that are ALIVE at the end of the Millenium and go into eternity ALIVE.

Well, now this would be another interesting discussion that the hard-core dispys salivate over! Is Israel a heavenly or earthly people who will populate this world, build space ships, and populate other worlds?

Reading Mt 22:29-30 and understanding that Jesus is specifically speaking to a Jewish audience pretty much puts a kibbash on this notion for me!

 

[Ekklesian]

Oh.... well, do share where it says everybody dies.

The Scriptures don't say we will all die. It says we will all be changed.

Your Dispensational Premillennialism is gumming up the works. Our salvation is the First Resurrection...not some fabled Rapture.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:4-7​

​

We enter the Thousand Years, or the church age wherein the Apostles sit on twelve thrones ruling (through their letters to the churches, the Scriptures) the twelve tribes, that is the elect, the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, on this earth.

At the end of the Thousand Years, or the church age, and the nations under Satan are arrayed against the encampment of the saints, i.e., the church, in their final bid to stamp out Christianity in the earth, then the final trump shall sound, and the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, consuming that Wicked with the spirit of His mouth, and destroying with the brightness of His appearing, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is the Second Resurrection.

Then the dead, small and great, will stand before God; and the books will be opened: and the book of life will be opened: and the dead will be judged out of those things which are written in the books, according to their works. And whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

This is the Scriptural description of the final days and the Resurrection. Dispensational Premillennialism mucks all that up with Christ's failure to deliver the promises the first time, two or three appearings, an imperfect and temporal reign, the re-establishment of carnal commanments, and etcetera...and for what purpose? Just story-telling. Selling books.

Boiled down, DP is merely a carnal understanding of spiritual things--thinking of heaven as if it is earth for the purpose of judaizing the church. It's hogwash. It's no wonder people are confused about infants.

 

[Ekklesian]

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice that it is not the Jew first.

 

[Ekklesian]

The scriptures I am thinking of that do make my point are "To whom much is given, much shall be required" (Lk 12:48) and 2 Cor 4:17 - "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" Also Lk 6:23, 35.

Jesus expressly told us to "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven..." Mt 6:20

Even so, we are HIS workmanship. I don't think it will matter the difference between the number of stars in our respective crowns. They all get cast at His feet.

There are those who say that any and all memory of our former life will be wiped away but if such were the case, we (the person we are right now) WILL NOT actually enter into Heaven! We would be effectively annihilated and replaced by some other being that is completely unrecognizable!

I'm certainly not suggesting that. I think we will know ourselves and each other as He knows us, and I don't think we even begin to comprehend the height and depth of that knowledge.

I don't think we even begin to know ourselves in our natural states. I think we are blind even to the degree of perception of our natural spirits. Our bodies are veils--tents. Not just to others, but to ourselves as well. I think a high degree of cognition, though knowledge is a noble pursuit, and a commanded one as well, is more of a hindrance than a help when it comes to the apprehension of Christ. "Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And so Christ says we must become as little children.

But back to the difference between one's mind and his spirit. To whom does the Spirit bear witness that he is a child of God? It is to his spirit. Romans 8:16. There is a perception and a knowledge there that is quite independent of one's cognitive development.

And so back to the question I posed very early on...is faith a cognitive operation, or a spiritual one?

If it is a cognitive one, then not only are infants unable to exercise faith, then neither are the mentally retarded. They are out of God's reach.

But if it is a spiritual one, then no one is out of His reach, and no one has an excuse.

Simply because we don't remember thinking when we were infants, even in the womb, doesn't mean we weren't. I think Jacob and Esau's fight while in the womb is proof enough that we do think, and that by nature we hate our brothers in our hearts, and would war with them even before we are born if given the chance.

So not only is there the same capacity for faith as in any adult, there is also the same capacity for repentance, and the same corruption of which to repent. It's evident that from conception, the sentence of death is upon all.

Pete Ruckman says we will all be 33-year-old Jewish males in heaven. I would say that the first would be heretical and the second is just ridiculous!

I wondered where X-Files got that notion. I was thinking he was simply describing an appearance of maturity.

The same argument is made regarding the "new heavens and the new earth" whether the old is destroyed and replaced with something new or is it renovated and restored being the same heavens and earth that God originally created and called "good?" The new heaven and new earth will be familiar to us, not something that is foreign and unrecognizable!

I think it's clear the new universe will be geocentric, just like the old one.

 

[Ekklesian]

, but it has everything to do with the subject because Ekklesian believes infants will stand before the final judgment to be judged according to their works

You've been told numerous times, that that is not what I believe, and you refuse to answer a very straightforward question put forth to you in numerous places.

If you think that grace through faith excludes infants, that's your problem, not the Gospel's. As for me, and any other true believer, we cannot preach any other Gospel. Christ, and faith in Him, is the only way to the Father.

 

[Bruh]

Fortunately, the truth is not determined by what you find hard to believe because of your experiences.

Fortunately, you have no scripture to call this truth.

 

[Bruh]

I can see a rational discussion is going to be impossible with you. And I think Spurgeon was inhaling his cigars when he said that. Because he certainly has no Scripture.

If you're going to insist that there is a way for one to enter the presence of the Father other than by grace through faith because of your emotional attachment to a child you once knew, then your love is not for the child who was, nor is it for the Father or His Son, or for the Work He did.

Your love is for yourself, and for your cherished illusions.

You certainly have no scripture to call this truth. Only speculation.

 

[Ekklesian]

You certainly have no scripture to call this truth. Only speculation.

I do have Scripture. You just don't know the Scriptures well enough to recognize it.

We can start with the universal, non-optional Scriptural truth that there is none righteous, and then ask how one is saved.

Scripturally, it is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. No one goes to the Father but by Him.

Now, if you think you have to amend those truths to allow for a certain class of individual, then you're not thinking Scripturally. "Yea, hath God said...?"

 

[Bruh]

I do have Scripture. You just don't know the Scriptures well enough to recognize it.

We can start with the universal, non-optional Scriptural truth that there is none righteous, and then ask how one is saved.

Scripturally, it is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. No one goes to the Father but by Him.

Now, if you think you have to amend those truths to allow for a certain class of individual, then you're not thinking Scripturally. "Yea, hath God said...?"

Your argument is like the IFB argument that women should only wear pants.

There’s no scripture that says, women shouldn’t wear pants, period.

The same goes for this argument. There’s no scripture that says, infants will be…….whatever you believe or say.

You are reading into something that isn’t there that does not give specifics about babies. You’re only speculating.

 

[Ekklesian]

I'm not speculating at all about the way to the Father.

Are you saying that you're only speculating about infants?

 

[Bruh]

I'm not speculating at all about the way to the Father.

Are you saying that you're only speculating about infants?

You are correct about the way to the Father. In context He’s speaking to adults.

All I can tell you is that scripture doesn’t give specifics concerning infants and salvation.

You for sure are speculating, am I speculating? Again, all I know is that scripture doesn’t say one word about infants but in context He’s only always taking to adults.