The Decline of the IFB Movement?

[ALAYMAN]

In my area there is a long history of fundamental Baptist churches thriving in yesteryear.  I'm relying on "oldtimers" word for those accounts, but the men who've told me stories are credible men of God.  There are no thriving IFB churches here now.  All are small and struggling.  The only growing churches are those of the contemporary model.  Those are just the indisputable facts.  Of course numbers aren't the ultimate test of fidelity to the Scriptures, as the burgeoning Mormons and Muslims easily attest to.  I think that in part, you can attribute the growth of contemporary churches to the fact that people generally don't want to be held to the sort of conservative/traditional paradigm for church.  McChurch is faddish.  Skits, drama, "relevance", and packaged sermons are the flavor of the day, and there are plenty of churches on many corners of Anytown USA to serve it up to those that want their spiritual fix.

 

[Bob H]

Im not sure who has insinuated you're in over your head, but it certainly wasn't me.
Your opinions are as viable as anyone else's.....but that's what they are...opinions.

No worry, that was just me 

Standards, screens, hymn books and bus ministries are NOT relevant IFB a discussion of Baptist distinctives or a definition of fundamental.

You're right. Those things don't have nuttin to do with nuttin. Hope I didn't imply such.


With that said I'll add a PS: Though I'm a fundamentalist to the bone, I'm no baptist and most likely will never be one. I should of stayed out of this "baptist" thread. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In my area there is a long history of fundamental Baptist churches thriving in yesteryear.  I'm relying on "oldtimers" word for those accounts, but the men who've told me stories are credible men of God.  There are no thriving IFB churches here now.  All are small and struggling.  The only growing churches are those of the contemporary model.  Those are just the indisputable facts.  Of course numbers aren't the ultimate test of fidelity to the Scriptures, as the burgeoning Mormons and Muslims easily attest to.  I think that in part, you can attribute the growth of contemporary churches to the fact that people generally don't want to be held to the sort of conservative/traditional paradigm for church.  McChurch is faddish.  Skits, drama, "relevance", and packaged sermons are the flavor of the day, and there are plenty of churches on many corners of Anytown USA to serve it up to those that want their spiritual fix.

That seems to be true here as well.

I have been/am a critic of the uber-contemporary church movement.
Just as all IFB churches cant be broad brushed, neither can all so called contemporary churches.
Many preach and practice solid Biblical principles.
Just because a church uses drama, video and casual dress doesn't make them liberal or compromising.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

"I don't see where God is opposed to CCM, rock music or even... ....hip hop?
I don't see where He's opposed to long hair on men or tattoos.
I don't see where He's opposed to alcohol...in fact, He did a little wine-making on the side.
I'd say God is opposed to drunkeness and the abuse of alcohol, so your statement isn't entirely true.
Ephesians 5:18 (NASB) 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
Proverbs 20:1 (NASB) 1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.
I don't see where He's opposed to public schools.
Just their anti-Christian attitude.
I don't see where He's opposed to pants on women.
I think he prefers them to be clothed, albeit modestly.
I don't see where He's opposed to a man and a woman getting married regardless of how much of a difference there is in the amount of melanin is in their skin. ????????????????????????????????????????
I don't see where He's opposed to everything not KJV.
True dat, but I don't see where he likes everything not KJV.
Any pet standards I happened to miss?
Yeah, I don't see where he is opposed to pray after me if the person is sincere.  Oh my, go off the deep end now.
Another one, I don't see where he says you can be lost again.  This is just a ploy by churches to keep people under their thumb.

 

[bruinboy]

What you will find out is that I am right. 

There is always a first time for everything.  Hope I live long enough to see it. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What disturbs me is that we seem to be lined up on the died of one extreme or the other.

No pants on women, you must use hymn books, must have a bus ministry, KJVO, no syncopation in our music....etc. ARE EXTREME positions.

On the other side we have to uber-relevant missionals who exalt social justice and tolerance so much that there is no room for sin in their theology...lest we be intolerant and offend the sinner...er....person different from.

Scripture, no matter the version doesn't support either extreme, in it's entire context.

 

[rsc2a]

What disturbs me is that we seem to be lined up on the died of one extreme or the other.

No pants on women, you must use hymn books, must have a bus ministry, KJVO, no syncopation in our music....etc. ARE EXTREME positions.

On the other side we have to uber-relevant missionals who exalt social justice and tolerance so much that there is no room for sin in their theology...lest we be intolerant and offend the sinner...er....person different from.

Scripture, no matter the version doesn't support either extreme, in it's entire context.

My mp3 player is filled with some guys that don't tow the "bus ministry, KJVO..." line AND "exalt social justice and tolerance" yet still very much preach that we are all broken sinners in need of a Savior...

...but they are definitely not IFB.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

What disturbs me is that we seem to be lined up on the died of one extreme or the other.

No pants on women, you must use hymn books, must have a bus ministry, KJVO, no syncopation in our music....etc. ARE EXTREME positions.

On the other side we have to uber-relevant missionals who exalt social justice and tolerance so much that there is no room for sin in their theology...lest we be intolerant and offend the sinner...er....person different from.

Scripture, no matter the version doesn't support either extreme, in it's entire context.

My mp3 player is filled with some guys that don't tow the "bus ministry, KJVO..." line AND "exalt social justice and tolerance" yet still very much preach that we are all broken sinners in need of a Savior...

...but they are definitely not IFB.

What, exactly is, social justice?  Does it include petitioning government to change laws?  If so, then I do not see any precedent for that in the New Testament.  I do see that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised of his time.  That is better called the great reversal, imo. I do not see Jesus trying to get laws changed by the government, for he preached a greater law.  In the sermon on the mount, he is the King reading out the spiritual laws of his kingdom.  If we want to change the world, then we start with ourself and do it one heart at a time, and the disenfranchised will see a difference by the way we treat them.  Social justice has a hollow ring to it, imo.  If we all got justice, no one would be saved.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Tarheel BaptistThat seems to be true here as well.

I have been/am a critic of the uber-contemporary church movement.
Just as all IFB churches cant be broad brushed, neither can all so called contemporary churches.
Many preach and practice solid Biblical principles.
Just because a church uses drama, video and casual dress doesn't make them liberal or compromising.
[/quote]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the issues of drama, dress, or technology explicitly declare a church to be wrong, but meant to say that those issues, when coupled with other pragmatic philosophies often mark the sign of a church that is trying to please people and meet felt needs as a higher priority than fidelity to Christ and Biblical doctrines.

 

[themagneticfields]

What disturbs me is that we seem to be lined up on the died of one extreme or the other.

No pants on women, you must use hymn books, must have a bus ministry, KJVO, no syncopation in our music....etc. ARE EXTREME positions.

On the other side we have to uber-relevant missionals who exalt social justice and tolerance so much that there is no room for sin in their theology...lest we be intolerant and offend the sinner...er....person different from.

Scripture, no matter the version doesn't support either extreme, in it's entire context.

My mp3 player is filled with some guys that don't tow the "bus ministry, KJVO..." line AND "exalt social justice and tolerance" yet still very much preach that we are all broken sinners in need of a Savior...

...but they are definitely not IFB.

What, exactly is, social justice?  Does it include petitioning government to change laws?  If so, then I do not see any precedent for that in the New Testament.  I do see that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised of his time.  That is better called the great reversal, imo. I do not see Jesus trying to get laws changed by the government, for he preached a greater law.  In the sermon on the mount, he is the King reading out the spiritual laws of his kingdom.  If we want to change the world, then we start with ourself and do it one heart at a time, and the disenfranchised will see a difference by the way we treat them.  Social justice has a hollow ring to it, imo.  If we all got justice, no one would be saved.

An example from the church we're attending. Hunter is a local elementary school.

UNDERSTANDING THE HEART OF HOPE FOR HUNTER:
The fall happened, and sin created a life unintended by God. Poverty is real and comes with real effects to those living among it.

North Americans tend to view poverty as solely a material depravity, ignoring the holistic definition of poverty. Bryant Meyers, a leading Christian Community Development thinker says,

 

[rsc2a]

My mp3 player is filled with some guys that don't tow the "bus ministry, KJVO..." line AND "exalt social justice and tolerance" yet still very much preach that we are all broken sinners in need of a Savior...

...but they are definitely not IFB.

What, exactly is, social justice?

Amos, parts of Isaiah, a little bit of Leviticus, some Psalms, Micah, others... In fact, you'll find that the word for "alms" in later Hebrew (around 1 BC) is the same word as the word for "righteousness". ("Justice" and "righteousness" also have the same Hebrew word.)

(See also themagneticfield's excellent post.)

Does it include petitioning government to change laws?

Perhaps. It's definitely not the only means, but it is a means.

And to stave off some of the critics: social justice ≠ socialism necessarily.

If so, then I do not see any precedent for that in the New Testament.

Jesus called Himself a King. Paul called Him Lord. There were definite political elements to the teachings of the NT. In fact, NT authors wouldn't have even recognized this divide we regarding politics and other aspects of life.

I do see that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised of his time.  That is better called the great reversal, imo. I do not see Jesus trying to get laws changed by the government, for he preached a greater law.  In the sermon on the mount, he is the King reading out the spiritual laws of his kingdom.

Jesus was a Jewish peasant, not a Roman emperor. (Yes, I know He is also God.)

If we want to change the world, then we start with ourself and do it one heart at a time, and the disenfranchised will see a difference by the way we treat them.  Social justice has a hollow ring to it, imo.  If we all got justice, no one would be saved.

Agreed.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Quote from: jimmudcatgrant on March 13, 2012, 11:38:01 AM

I do see that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised of his time.  That is better called the great reversal, imo. I do not see Jesus trying to get laws changed by the government, for he preached a greater law.  In the sermon on the mount, he is the King reading out the spiritual laws of his kingdom.



Jesus was a Jewish peasant, not a Roman emperor. (Yes, I know He is also God.)

RSC2A, Jesus isn't a was, but an I am.  He is King.  He rode into Jerusalem on an ass as their king.  He called himself a shepard, which is kingship language in the semitic thinking.  The inscription on the cross included "King of the Jews."  Make no mistake, he is, was, and always will be King.  The Davidic covenant guarantees that. Now I agree that he is not a Roman Emperor, now did I ever imply that he was.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What disturbs me is that we seem to be lined up on the died of one extreme or the other.

No pants on women, you must use hymn books, must have a bus ministry, KJVO, no syncopation in our music....etc. ARE EXTREME positions.

On the other side we have to uber-relevant missionals who exalt social justice and tolerance so much that there is no room for sin in their theology...lest we be intolerant and offend the sinner...er....person different from.

Scripture, no matter the version doesn't support either extreme, in it's entire context.

My mp3 player is filled with some guys that don't tow the "bus ministry, KJVO..." line AND "exalt social justice and tolerance" yet still very much preach that we are all broken sinners in need of a Savior...

...but they are definitely not IFB.

What, exactly is, social justice?  Does it include petitioning government to change laws?  If so, then I do not see any precedent for that in the New Testament.  I do see that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised of his time.  That is better called the great reversal, imo. I do not see Jesus trying to get laws changed by the government, for he preached a greater law.  In the sermon on the mount, he is the King reading out the spiritual laws of his kingdom.  If we want to change the world, then we start with ourself and do it one heart at a time, and the disenfranchised will see a difference by the way we treat them.  Social justice has a hollow ring to it, imo.  If we all got justice, no one would be saved.

Social justice among the missional pastors can mean many things.
To some, it simply means meeting physical needs in order to present the Gospel.
To others, it is almost a good works mentality and the message gets lost in the good works.

I believe that there is a real danger that some might end up like the so called mainline denominations.

 

[biscuit1953]

I believe our movement is in decline and has been for some time.
What do you think?
Why or why not?

Now, this is only my opinion, but...

I think a major reason for the decline of IFB churches is the internet specifically as it relates to two areas:

1 -  A lot of IFB "doctrines" are based on extremely poor exegesis. Furthermore, the poorer the exegesis, the louder the supporters tend to be. The internet has allowed people to more easily do their own research/study, and as a result, they are finding many positions in the IFB movement to be intellectually bankrupt. When other denominations appear to consistently have a more thought out position that still seems Biblically sound, people begin to question the IFB movement in general.

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

 

[Izdaari]

I believe that there is a real danger that some might end up like the so called mainline denominations.

 

[Just John]

I don't post here much anymore and missed this thread earlier but had a couple of thoughts....

I agree that there is now more information available in a manner more acceptable to to a certain segment of "fundamentalists" who were encouraged or told not to listen to anyone but "preacher".

If Frag is right (a big "if" I realize ) ) then perhaps these growing numbers of smaller IFB churches are just products of splits from other IFB churches. It is more than conceivable. It's likely probable given the history of the movement.

Frag also mentioned that these growing number of churches have thriving bus ministries. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a church bus of ANY type other than the little church vans and those usually from several churches together at the same concert.

 

[Izdaari]

Little church van
You don't know what I got
Little church van
You don't know what I got

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I don't post here much anymore and missed this thread earlier but had a couple of thoughts....

I agree that there is now more information available in a manner more acceptable to to a certain segment of "fundamentalists" who were encouraged or told not to listen to anyone but "preacher".

If Frag is right (a big "if" I realize ) ) then perhaps these growing numbers of smaller IFB churches are just products of splits from other IFB churches. It is more than conceivable. It's likely probable given the history of the movement.

Frag also mentioned that these growing number of churches have thriving bus ministries. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a church bus of ANY type other than the little church vans and those usually from several churches together at the same concert.

Where have you been.....still living in the Berg?

Our county has almost 300 Baptist Churches, mostly IFB.
They tend to be very small, with a few exceptions.
And many of them do have small bus ministries.

At one time they, IFB churches,we're very prominent and influential in our community....now, sadly, the movement here reflects the national movement....it is a sad shell of what it once was....and continues to decline!

 

[Just John]

I don't post here much anymore and missed this thread earlier but had a couple of thoughts....

I agree that there is now more information available in a manner more acceptable to to a certain segment of "fundamentalists" who were encouraged or told not to listen to anyone but "preacher".

If Frag is right (a big "if" I realize ) ) then perhaps these growing numbers of smaller IFB churches are just products of splits from other IFB churches. It is more than conceivable. It's likely probable given the history of the movement.

Frag also mentioned that these growing number of churches have thriving bus ministries. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a church bus of ANY type other than the little church vans and those usually from several churches together at the same concert.

Where have you been.....still living in the Berg?

Our county has almost 300 Baptist Churches, mostly IFB.
They tend to be very small, with a few exceptions.
And many of them do have small bus ministries.

At one time they, IFB churches,we're very prominent and influential in our community....now, sadly, the movement here reflects the national movement....it is a sad shell of what it once was....and continues to decline!

Yep, just moved lock, stock and barrel to Lynchburg. Realizing what a small town it really is.

I'm not saddened these churches are declining IF they have gone the way of kjvo and crazy legalism exemplified by the Hyles or SOTL brand. Good riddance IMO. Godspeed to more churches like yours.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I don't post here much anymore and missed this thread earlier but had a couple of thoughts....

I agree that there is now more information available in a manner more acceptable to to a certain segment of "fundamentalists" who were encouraged or told not to listen to anyone but "preacher".

If Frag is right (a big "if" I realize ) ) then perhaps these growing numbers of smaller IFB churches are just products of splits from other IFB churches. It is more than conceivable. It's likely probable given the history of the movement.

Frag also mentioned that these growing number of churches have thriving bus ministries. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a church bus of ANY type other than the little church vans and those usually from several churches together at the same concert.

Where have you been.....still living in the Berg?

Our county has almost 300 Baptist Churches, mostly IFB.
They tend to be very small, with a few exceptions.
And many of them do have small bus ministries.

At one time they, IFB churches,we're very prominent and influential in our community....now, sadly, the movement here reflects the national movement....it is a sad shell of what it once was....and continues to decline!

Yep, just moved lock, stock and barrel to Lynchburg. Realizing what a small town it really is.

I'm not saddened these churches are declining IF they have gone the way of kjvo and crazy legalism exemplified by the Hyles or SOTL brand. Good riddance IMO. Godspeed to more churches like yours.

And it's doubled in size since I lived there in the 70s.....it really was
a burg back then....

Many of the churches down here aren't as extreme as they are just.....'out of touch'.