Should a pastor know individual "giving" information?

[Mathew Ward]

So if God is on the inside then God will manifest Himself on the outside in our behavior and treatment of others.

Here are some of the outward the IFB considers, I could be off base here...

Some general...

Now, Would you accept me for leadership if:

Which Bible Version you have... "How about Good News for Modern Man?"  Who are you to judge what version I use?
What style of Christian music you listen to...  "Head banging Stryper or Hip Hop"
What style of clothes you wear... "I wear thongs in public" (But my long hair covers my thong) Who are you to judge hair length?
What words you don't use... (Can't think of any illustrations, you got me here."

Some specific

The length of the man's hair... "My hair goes down to my backside and I'm a man"
Skirts for women and pants for men... "I wear a skirt and my wife wears a skirt"
How much to you give to the local church... "I refuse to give a dime"
How much do you give to missions... "I don't ever give a dime to missions, I send it to Robert Tilton."
Are you a Soulwinner... (Since I'm a Calvinist, I never witness to anyone.)
How loyal are you to the church and the pastor... "I constantly oppose the pastor and let everyone know it.)

I could go on but I know you understand.
I could go on and on and on, but you know you have standards too, you just won't admit it.

I made a visit to an older couple this morning (they are in their 70's). I wore shorts, Sperry's and a golf shirt. They were thankful for the hour or so that I spent with them in fellowship. But in many IFB churches that attire would be considered inappropriate. You see the inward was manifested on the outside but not in what I wore but how they were treated. I thank God for the grace He gives and that He has chosen to minister through me. There is nothing good in me, it is only Christ in me that is good.

OUCH!!

It is too bad that the Holy Spirit cannot teach someone truth from the Good News for Modern Man.

What makes music Christian or not Christian? Would seem to me the person playing it.

Stryper and Lecrae are not my genres of music but I don't consider their music unChristian.

Souled Out by Lecrae

Man I consider my life nuthin'
If I could just finish the race
And complete the job the
Lord jesus gave me
I live to tell the world his message
Romans 1:16 "I'm not Ashamed"
I Ain't Ashamed


We Souled Out
Seeking God's face till we fold out
You want it, we got it
We ain't tryin' to hold out
Break me, shake me, mold me
I rather die like Christ than live unholy

But because someone uses the good news for Modern man and listens to Lecrae it seems to me that they be disqualified from holding a position of leadership at your church, is that true?

So can I wear shorts as an associate pastor for your church when making visits?

Yes, even non KJVO's recognize Good News for Modern man as completely corrupt.
I don't consider music that you can't understand the words to while they are singing it as Christian, even if the singers say they are saved or not.
If you are on the golf course you can visit in shorts, as long as your cheeks aren't showing.

So that is a no for making visits for your church in shorts. So you would rather I didn't visit for the church if my choice of clothes were shorts?

I guess you didn't even try to listen to Lecrae on youtube, his words are very plain.

So there is no part of the Good News for Modern Man that God could use?

 

[16KJV11]

There is a man in my church who goes soul winning every Saturday.
Some days he wears blue jeans with holes in them.
Some days he wears shorts in the summer time.
I don't tell him what to wear though I have made suggestions.
I'm just glad he come soul winning.
But if you worked as my assistant pastor and were making visits for the church, I would ask you to wear at least a collared shirt and a pair of docker style pants.
I quit wearing a tie on visitation ages ago.
I know, I'll send in my Hacker card in the mail today!

As far as the music goes, I don't care for the hip hop head banging lifestyle.
I believe it is worldly and often ungodly.
I would never say that those who sing that style and say they are Christian are not Christians.
But I do believe they set a worldly wrong example and appeal more to the flesh than the spirit.
You can disagree with me on these issues and that's ok.
But as long as I am pastor of this church, those who indulge in that kind of music and lifestyle will not hold positions of leadership.

 

[RAIDER]

I guess you didn't even try to listen to Lecrae on youtube, his words are very plain.

Here is the guy's music you should be listening to while on visitation.  Evidently we have been judging him too harshly.  He surely has a good heart......right??

Gene Simmons On: Anti-Christian Bias, Tim Tebow, & The Arena Football League

 

[RAIDER]

Is there something Biblically wrong with wearing shorts? If not, then they would be just as acceptable as the shirt, tie and Stacey Adams for the task at hand.

So basically, if it is comfortable and the Bible doesn't specifically condemn it, it's all good?

 

[prophet]

I guess you didn't even try to listen to Lecrae on youtube, his words are very plain.

Here is the guy's music you should be listening to while on visitation.  Evidently we have been judging him too harshly.  He surely has a good heart......right??

Gene Simmons On: Anti-Christian Bias, Tim Tebow, & The Arena Football League

Maybe he could print the 4 points and prayer on his tongue, than he could just knock a door, and stick it out.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

So if God is on the inside then God will manifest Himself on the outside in our behavior and treatment of others.

Here are some of the outward the IFB considers, I could be off base here...

Some general...

Now, Would you accept me for leadership if:

Which Bible Version you have... "How about Good News for Modern Man?"  Who are you to judge what version I use?
What style of Christian music you listen to...  "Head banging Stryper or Hip Hop"
What style of clothes you wear... "I wear thongs in public" (But my long hair covers my thong) Who are you to judge hair length?
What words you don't use... (Can't think of any illustrations, you got me here."

Some specific

The length of the man's hair... "My hair goes down to my backside and I'm a man"
Skirts for women and pants for men... "I wear a skirt and my wife wears a skirt"
How much to you give to the local church... "I refuse to give a dime"
How much do you give to missions... "I don't ever give a dime to missions, I send it to Robert Tilton."
Are you a Soulwinner... (Since I'm a Calvinist, I never witness to anyone.)
How loyal are you to the church and the pastor... "I constantly oppose the pastor and let everyone know it.)

I could go on but I know you understand.
I could go on and on and on, but you know you have standards too, you just won't admit it.

I made a visit to an older couple this morning (they are in their 70's). I wore shorts, Sperry's and a golf shirt. They were thankful for the hour or so that I spent with them in fellowship. But in many IFB churches that attire would be considered inappropriate. You see the inward was manifested on the outside but not in what I wore but how they were treated. I thank God for the grace He gives and that He has chosen to minister through me. There is nothing good in me, it is only Christ in me that is good.

OUCH!!

It is too bad that the Holy Spirit cannot teach someone truth from the Good News for Modern Man.

What makes music Christian or not Christian? Would seem to me the person playing it.

Stryper and Lecrae are not my genres of music but I don't consider their music unChristian.

Souled Out by Lecrae

Man I consider my life nuthin'
If I could just finish the race
And complete the job the
Lord jesus gave me
I live to tell the world his message
Romans 1:16 "I'm not Ashamed"
I Ain't Ashamed


We Souled Out
Seeking God's face till we fold out
You want it, we got it
We ain't tryin' to hold out
Break me, shake me, mold me
I rather die like Christ than live unholy

But because someone uses the good news for Modern man and listens to Lecrae it seems to me that they be disqualified from holding a position of leadership at your church, is that true?

So can I wear shorts as an associate pastor for your church when making visits?

Yes, even non KJVO's recognize Good News for Modern man as completely corrupt.
I don't consider music that you can't understand the words to while they are singing it as Christian, even if the singers say they are saved or not.
If you are on the golf course you can visit in shorts, as long as your cheeks aren't showing.

Personally, I could understand the words of Stryper songs.
Of course, I got my practice trying to decipher Ozzy's gibberish, and Twisted Sister's screaming.

>

Anishinaabe

Hey, I even figured out what BOC was saying, two feet from the 20 foot tall speakers, in a purple haze.
Couldn't hear for two solid days, blood coming from my ears.

Good thing you trusted  Christ, so you no longer have to fear the reaper.
                        ;D

Anishinaabe

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
BCH, would you want a deacon or recruit a teacher who does not give consistently?

This is a good question and if not directly discussed with the individual being considered, your method of asking consistency and "does it seem" is a good method.

 

[Mathew Ward]

There is a man in my church who goes soul winning every Saturday.
Some days he wears blue jeans with holes in them.
Some days he wears shorts in the summer time.
I don't tell him what to wear though I have made suggestions.
I'm just glad he come soul winning.
But if you worked as my assistant pastor and were making visits for the church, I would ask you to wear at least a collared shirt and a pair of docker style pants.
I quit wearing a tie on visitation ages ago.
I know, I'll send in my Hacker card in the mail today!

As far as the music goes, I don't care for the hip hop head banging lifestyle.
I believe it is worldly and often ungodly.
I would never say that those who sing that style and say they are Christian are not Christians.
But I do believe they set a worldly wrong example and appeal more to the flesh than the spirit.
You can disagree with me on these issues and that's ok.
But as long as I am pastor of this church, those who indulge in that kind of music and lifestyle will not hold positions of leadership.

So your preference as the pastor is the deciding factor on folks of leadership of the church you pastor.

It started out with giving and you have added other preferences you have as pastor and that those follow your preferences.

We have left the realm of heart, imho and are focused on the outward which comes across to me as "Religious Uniformity" and not "Spiritual Unity".

We can differ and that is ok (as you said) and in our differences we can have Spiritual Unity, something that is taught in the Bible (Romans 14, 1 Cor 8) but when you start having Religious Uniformity then we have ventured into the man made realm of standards and imposing our preferences on others. This leads to a works based sanctification and performance based Christianity, again in my opinion.

What makes something worldly or ungodly? What makes something Christian?

 

[Mathew Ward]

Is there something Biblically wrong with wearing shorts? If not, then they would be just as acceptable as the shirt, tie and Stacey Adams for the task at hand.

So basically, if it is comfortable and the Bible doesn't specifically condemn it, it's all good?

It seems you are the one prohibiting wearing shorts to make visits in. I was asking for your biblical mandate and reasoning for doing so. If there isn't any why would you make a rule against it? I know the HACker in you likes to make rules but beyond the HACkerisms lets be biblicists.

 

[Tim]

If someone knocked on my door with shorts on I would find it less intimidating than dress shirt and ironed slacks. People dressed up are selling something. Dressed down people (not sloppy) are out for my good. Like a neighbor knocking to say, "Hey! You left your car lights on!"

 

[rsc2a]

There is a man in my church who goes soul winning every Saturday.
Some days he wears blue jeans with holes in them.
Some days he wears shorts in the summer time.
I don't tell him what to wear though I have made suggestions.
I'm just glad he come soul winning.
But if you worked as my assistant pastor and were making visits for the church, I would ask you to wear at least a collared shirt and a pair of docker style pants.
I quit wearing a tie on visitation ages ago.
I know, I'll send in my Hacker card in the mail today!

As far as the music goes, I don't care for the hip hop head banging lifestyle.
I believe it is worldly and often ungodly.
I would never say that those who sing that style and say they are Christian are not Christians.
But I do believe they set a worldly wrong example and appeal more to the flesh than the spirit.
You can disagree with me on these issues and that's ok.
But as long as I am pastor of this church, those who indulge in that kind of music and lifestyle will not hold positions of leadership.

So your preference as the pastor is the deciding factor on folks of leadership of the church you pastor.

It started out with giving and you have added other preferences you have as pastor and that those follow your preferences.

So much for the requirements in 1 Timothy and Titus being enough, right?

 

[RAIDER]

Is there something Biblically wrong with wearing shorts? If not, then they would be just as acceptable as the shirt, tie and Stacey Adams for the task at hand.

So basically, if it is comfortable and the Bible doesn't specifically condemn it, it's all good?

It seems you are the one prohibiting wearing shorts to make visits in. I was asking for your biblical mandate and reasoning for doing so. If there isn't any why would you make a rule against it? I know the HACker in you likes to make rules but beyond the HACkerisms lets be biblicists.

I do not believe it is sinful to make visits in shorts.  It is more a matter of being appropriate.  I realize it is the IFB in me, but as we see the world dressing more and more "down" it seems that we as Christians think it is ok to change and stay a step or two behind them. 

I am a big MLB fan.  I love the history of the game.  I was watching a documentary of the MLB and for many years the men would attend the game in a suit and tie.  Now look at how people dress at a game.  I am not enough of a Hacker to thing we should wear a tie to a game, but I think you understand where I'm coming from.  We now go visiting and represent the King of Kings wearing shorts while a few years ago men wore suits to a baseball game.

Matt, I think it's great that you are visiting.  There are a multitude of men in dress shirts and dockers that never go visiting.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Is there something Biblically wrong with wearing shorts? If not, then they would be just as acceptable as the shirt, tie and Stacey Adams for the task at hand.

So basically, if it is comfortable and the Bible doesn't specifically condemn it, it's all good?

It seems you are the one prohibiting wearing shorts to make visits in. I was asking for your biblical mandate and reasoning for doing so. If there isn't any why would you make a rule against it? I know the HACker in you likes to make rules but beyond the HACkerisms lets be biblicists.

I do not believe it is sinful to make visits in shorts.  It is more a matter of being appropriate.  I realize it is the IFB in me, but as we see the world dressing more and more "down" it seems that we as Christians think it is ok to change and stay a step or two behind them. 

I am a big MLB fan.  I love the history of the game.  I was watching a documentary of the MLB and for many years the men would attend the game in a suit and tie.  Now look at how people dress at a game.  I am not enough of a Hacker to thing we should wear a tie to a game, but I think you understand where I'm coming from.  We now go visiting and represent the King of Kings wearing shorts while a few years ago men wore suits to a baseball game.

Matt, I think it's great that you are visiting.  There are a multitude of men in dress shirts and dockers that never go visiting.

I do know where you are coming from and if you wanted to go visiting with me I am sure we would have a blast and great fellowship. Of couse you in a three piece suit, dress hat and Stacey Adam's shoes; me in my shorts, golf shirt and Sperry's...a kind of Dr Hyles and Mr Hyde.

Years ago was it the church that determined that folks wore a shirt and tie to the game or society?

 

[Bravo]

pic=3752.msg62033#msg62033 date=1393361590]

Years ago was it the church that determined that folks wore a shirt and tie to the game or society?

Wow good question.

 

[BALAAM]

I wonder if Pastor Wilkerson knows what his people give? If he does, and if JS is still a church member, and if they both believe what js allowed to be taught at fbch; then the following is true.
JS would need to determine exactly how much it has cost to house, clothe, feed, provide medical care and services for his maintenance the last two years. I think it is approximately $80,000.00 per year. If he hasn't tithed in the last two years he would need to figure around $16,000.00 and add 20% on to that. He would need to send a payment immediately and then start sending about $160.00 on a weekly basis. If he makes 30 cents an hour for a prison job he may have a difficult time.

And this, my friends is EXACTLY what was taught by his right hand financial man at fbch. If he knew what people were giving to the church then they should all write him and remind him that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[RAIDER]

Years ago was it the church that determined that folks wore a shirt and tie to the game or society?

I believe it was society.  Of course, more people attended church during this time period.  Unfortunately, as society has deteriorated the church has followed a few steps behind.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Years ago was it the church that determined that folks wore a shirt and tie to the game or society?

I believe it was society.  Of course, more people attended church during this time period.  Unfortunately, as society has deteriorated the church has followed a few steps behind.

Deteriorated? Probably not. Changed? Definitely.

I wonder how slave owners dressed. Capone dressed to the nines. Plenty of religious and sucessful businessmen would dress in fine fashion outside the white-robed garb. There are plenty of clergy of various denominational/religious stripes that have been pedophiles over the years.

So the change in attire to the store, ball games or even church does not necessarily indicate a decline in morality though it might reveal a change in moral failures.

 

[RAIDER]

Deteriorated? Probably not. Changed? Definitely.

I wonder how slave owners dressed. Capone dressed to the nines. Plenty of religious and sucessful businessmen would dress in fine fashion outside the white-robed garb. There are plenty of clergy of various denominational/religious stripes that have been pedophiles over the years.

So the change in attire to the store, ball games or even church does not necessarily indicate a decline in morality though it might reveal a change in moral failures.

I would not say going from a suit and tie or church dress at a ballgame to a pair of jeans and a t-shirt or a skirt is deteriorating dress.  That would be change.  I would say that going from a suit and tie or church dress at a ballgame to barechested drunk men and half dressed women is deteriorating.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Deteriorated? Probably not. Changed? Definitely.

I wonder how slave owners dressed. Capone dressed to the nines. Plenty of religious and sucessful businessmen would dress in fine fashion outside the white-robed garb. There are plenty of clergy of various denominational/religious stripes that have been pedophiles over the years.

So the change in attire to the store, ball games or even church does not necessarily indicate a decline in morality though it might reveal a change in moral failures.

I would not say going from a suit and tie or church dress at a ballgame to a pair of jeans and a t-shirt or a skirt is deteriorating dress.  That would be change.  I would say that going from a suit and tie or church dress at a ballgame to barechested drunk men and half dressed women is deteriorating.

Point taken.

Issue is that today, there is more "freedom" and opportunity to reveal the heart of a man than there used to be. The evil is still there but now it is more accepted in allowing expression. (Talking to you, facebook!)

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

I wonder if Pastor Wilkerson knows what his people give? If he does, and if JS is still a church member, and if they both believe what js allowed to be taught at fbch; then the following is true.
JS would need to determine exactly how much it has cost to house, clothe, feed, provide medical care and services for his maintenance the last two years. I think it is approximately $80,000.00 per year. If he hasn't tithed in the last two years he would need to figure around $16,000.00 and add 20% on to that. He would need to send a payment immediately and then start sending about $160.00 on a weekly basis. If he makes 30 cents an hour for a prison job he may have a difficult time.

And this, my friends is EXACTLY what was taught by his right hand financial man at fbch. If he knew what people were giving to the church then they should all write him and remind him that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Always wondered about that whole thing. If my neighbor and I had the same coverage through the same company, but different employers, one could cost one employer much more than the other dependiing on size of the company. God must have a humongaloid spread shhet.