Ron Hamilton's Son passed...

[Binaca Chugger]

The Jay Adam's approach to counseling did not promote medical opinion.

That is incorrect. 

http://www.nouthetic.org/nouthetic-counselors-oppose-the-use-of-medicine-don-t-they

That is good to know and I certainly need to rephrase what I wrote above.

In the early 90s, I read through everyone of his books and took basic and advanced courses in nouthetic counseling. Even my nouthetic profs taught us that there has been a shift in the view of medicine/doctors since the inception of Jay Adams approach. It did not strike me as strange because I definitely came away from some of his books with that impression.

It is good to see that he has noted a weakness in his approach by putting together The Christian Counselor’s Medical Desk Reference.

I was not far off in my assessment. Notice that in that article link, Adams is still definitely against psychotropic drugs. I, and many in the nouthetic community, disagree. During my courses, my profs gave us plenty of examples where there are times you need the help of a psychiatrist with drugs. Adams says that "pain is a friend." Your depressed counselee is sitting in your office because the pain is evident. It is what got the person to you. So, alleviate enough pain so that they can begin working on life issues. Too much pain/depression can actually prevent a person from thinking clearly. On the other side of the same coin, too much drugs can prevent a person from thinking clearly.

I know Christians helped by a well-regulated amount of psychotrophic drugs. I also know others hurt by them. Here are the success examples where people were given psychotropic drugs:

1) An adult Christian lady battled the assurance of her salvation so much that it consumed her thoughts to such a degree that she was debilitated and wept uncontrollably. She was helped by well-regulated drugs. I believe she has been weaned off them.

2) A child was so depressed and behaving as autistic. A small amount of psychotropic drugs, administered by a Psychiatrist, along with questioning, revealed that she was being molested.

3) A child was oxygen-deprived during birth. This child has to have some amount of psychotropic/psychoactive drugs so that he is no longer a dangerous child to himself and others.

Sadly, even those who are given a good amount of counseling and physical help are unable to cope. I don't know Jon Hamilton. I am not suggesting, in the least, that I know what happened or what could of helped.

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

I am not sure what stance you are taking.  It seems that you are in favor of giving drugs to help cope in effort to help the individual think clearly enough to make progress and get off drugs. 

I understand that some people have a chemical imbalance or brain abnormalities which would require some drugs or surgery or other help. 

Let us assume that we are not talking about these cases.  Rather, we are discussing normal people who have gone through a horrible event.  Do we really want to help them cope by doping?  Isn't there a better solution?  Doesn't Christ offer peace?  Maybe it is not seen at the time, but, isn't that the goal of the counselor - to help the hurting find the peace that passeth understanding in Christ Jesus?

A 30 year old might need blood pressure medicine.  But, hopefully, he changes his diet, begins to exercise and improve his health so that he no longer needs the meds.  I think many suffering from depression might fall into a similar situation. 

Another issue is that you are putting this hurting person under the care of a profession that is known for a demeaning attitude toward Biblical counsel.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

Another issue is that you are putting this hurting person under the care of a profession that is known for a demeaning attitude toward Biblical counsel.

If someone requires medication, their case falls outside the scope of a pastor. If their doctor prescribes them medication and they want another opinion, they should seek another trained medical opinion - not their pastor's unqualified opinion.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Another issue is that you are putting this hurting person under the care of a profession that is known for a demeaning attitude toward Biblical counsel.

If someone requires medication, their case falls outside the scope of a pastor. If their doctor prescribes them medication and they want another opinion, they should seek another trained medical opinion - not their pastor's unqualified opinion.

My point is that they should work in tandem with each other.  The end goal, for one not suffering from chemical imbalance or physical trauma, or mental handicap, should be that they find peace in Christ, learn what God is teaching them and be further conformed to His image.  We are a three-fold being (body, soul and spirit) and all three issues should be addressed.  Some instances of depression are the result of a physical problem which is an area that a pastor is not familiar.  Some instances of depression are the result of a spiritual problem which is an area that a physician is not familiar.

If the lemons of life have sent one into depression (and trust me, I know they can), surely a Christian would hope to have a better answer than "Go get doped up."  A medicine may be beneficial, but is only a temporary solution.  I believe Christ has a better solution and a real Christian counselor (not the "Serve more you lunatic!" variety) can help the one suffering to grow in Christ and find His peace.  Avoiding the pains of life through alcohol, meth, porn, or prescriptions is not the answer. 

 

[bruinboy]

At my former IFBx church people were NOT referred out for depression. It was handled very badly, with some horrible results.

I always thought that clinical depression was a prerequisite for IFBx church membership. Don't know how anyone with a positive outlook on life could go to one. . 

 

[christundivided]

At my former IFBx church people were NOT referred out for depression. It was handled very badly, with some horrible results.

I always thought that clinical depression was a prerequisite for IFBx church membership. Don't know how anyone with a positive outlook on life could go to one. .

Congrats bruinboy.... You've earned the "post of the year" award...

 

[Binaca Chugger]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

 

[christundivided]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

I know what you're saying but it would be more accurate to Thank God that he's there even though you're experiencing pain.... in other words....Thank God through the pain. "Thanking God for the pain" just seems rather silly.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

I know what you're saying but it would be more accurate to Thank God that he's there even though you're experiencing pain.... in other words....Thank God through the pain. "Thanking God for the pain" just seems rather silly.

Both.  God brought the pain in my life to show me where I need to change to be further conformed into His image.  His way is perfect.

 

[christundivided]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

I know what you're saying but it would be more accurate to Thank God that he's there even though you're experiencing pain.... in other words....Thank God through the pain. "Thanking God for the pain" just seems rather silly.

Both.  God brought the pain in my life to show me where I need to change to be further conformed into His image.  His way is perfect.

Yeah. Its always good to think God wanted to hurt you on purpose.... Just to so He can change you to further conform to His image. I mean God Himself had to hurt to be made perfect...... (sarcasm added). Seems like a rather shallow understand of why pain exists and who it is that conquers bad things in our Lives. I know we often talk of a "thorn in the flesh".... but its really silly to think many of us, get to a level we need to be humbled. unless we be "exalted above measure"!!

 

[FSSL]

I am not sure what stance you are taking.  It seems that you are in favor of giving drugs to help cope in effort to help the individual think clearly enough to make progress and get off drugs. 

I understand that some people have a chemical imbalance or brain abnormalities which would require some drugs or surgery or other help.

It is all an individual basis. Some will require it all of their lives. Some need it temporarily. For example a woman who lost her family in a tragic accident would benefit from having some temporary psychotrophic meds to get her through the funeral.

I know that these meds can be abused. However, with a Christian doctor's help, why not? Jay Adams is excessive on this.

 

[4everfsu]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

Are you married? Just kidding

 

[Binaca Chugger]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

Are you married? Just kidding

Yes, I am.  And the pains of marriage are used by God to further conform me to His image.  Besides, if I was a better husband, my wife would have nothing to point out that I am doing wrong, right....?  I wonder if I could ever be that good of a husband...

 

[BALAAM]

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

FWIW:  I have learned to thank God for the pain in my life. 

Are you married? Just kidding

Yes, I am.  And the pains of marriage are used by God to further conform me to His image.  Besides, if I was a better husband, my wife would have nothing to point out that I am doing wrong, right....?  I wonder if I could ever be that good of a husband...

I hear ya, man! ;D

 

[Still There]

It's very sad that their son thought he had no way out of depression but to commit suicide.  We don't know what was going on in his life that brought him to the like this.  Women battle depression very differently from men, especially when going through the change.  That's when mine started.  If it wasn't for medication and a wonderful doctor who helped diagnose, I don't know where I would be today.  In the beginning, we monitored the different medication, what worked, what didn't and now am on a daily dose.  Please don't critize anyone who deals with depression because you don't know what it's like in their mind.  It's like a million little things going on all the time.  Please continue to pray for the Hamilton's.  Grieving time is not over, honestly it's just the beginning. 

 

[groupie]

I am not saying that I am 100% against meds for mentally ill patients, but take a look at this report on how psychotropic have been the cause of shootings, violence and suicide -

http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

I think that there was less violence before these drugs starting being pushed.

 

[Timothy]

I think that there was less violence before these drugs starting being pushed.

I don't agree. The news media is better at reporting this activity today. I can't help but think about early America and how violent is was - specially for the American Indian.

 

[groupie]

Did you follow the link I posted?

There was never mass shootings in schools, movie theaters, malls etc like there are now. I am talking senseless shootings resulting from mental illness. Not some Chicago mob gunning downa  rival gang. Although they were mental ill as well.

 

[Timothy]

Did you follow the link I posted?

There was never mass shootings in schools, movie theaters, malls etc like there are now. I am talking senseless shootings resulting from mental illness. Not some Chicago mob gunning downa  rival gang. Although they were mental ill as well.

There always was and always will be senseless violence ... School vs American Indian Camp ... what is the difference? Both have people murdered by mentally ill people.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Largest school massacre in US was in 1927.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

 

[subllibrm]

I am sorry to hear this. I couldn't help but think of Ron's "Oh well" sermon about losing his eye. I am certain that "oh well" doesn't work in a situation like this.

Praying for them all.