Ron Hamilton's Son passed...

[Timothy]

There is something that medicine, counseling and churches are missing when it comes to depression.

What is that?

Wish I knew.

Me too.

I am going to take a stab at this that might offend some.  No offense intended.  I have struggled through depression myself.  I have counseled many suicidal people.  There are certain thought patterns and phrases that are VERY common.  I understand chemical imbalance is an issue.  I understand that some brains do not process thought well (mental handicap or brain injuries).  However there is so much commonality that I question another source.  Personally, in my own opinion, I believe that many who struggle with suicidal thought patterns are suffering from demonic oppression.  NOT possession, oppression.  It may be something that a Christian counselor should consider when other typical solutions seem to have no effect (or maybe approached from the beginning of counseling).

Maybe or maybe not. Demon oppression is easily handled according to the Scriptures.  Resist and the demon will flee. Many resist and resist and resist and resist and resist and it never goes away. Some people just have a physical that finds no healing.

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

Could you expound regarding "resting in Christ" ....

 

[Binaca Chugger]

There is something that medicine, counseling and churches are missing when it comes to depression.

What is that?

Wish I knew.

Me too.

I am going to take a stab at this that might offend some.  No offense intended.  I have struggled through depression myself.  I have counseled many suicidal people.  There are certain thought patterns and phrases that are VERY common.  I understand chemical imbalance is an issue.  I understand that some brains do not process thought well (mental handicap or brain injuries).  However there is so much commonality that I question another source.  Personally, in my own opinion, I believe that many who struggle with suicidal thought patterns are suffering from demonic oppression.  NOT possession, oppression.  It may be something that a Christian counselor should consider when other typical solutions seem to have no effect (or maybe approached from the beginning of counseling).

Maybe or maybe not. Demon oppression is easily handled according to the Scriptures.  Resist and the demon will flee. Many resist and resist and resist and resist and resist and it never goes away. Some people just have a physical that finds no healing.

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

Sorry I didn't include the words "in Christ"...... ??? 

How difficult it is it to resist in Christ? If you believe the Scriptures, then you know what they say will happen. Obviously there is more than one cause. Some try to narrow it down to some special "action" we can take with just the "right counseling" or just the "right understanding. I'm saying. There isn't always hope for everyone. I'm not saying that as a means to justify anone's actions. Its just the truth.

My friend, it can be very difficult.  It is quite possible to state you believe the Scripture and yet wonder if it is true.  "Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief."  For the Christian in this quagmire, it is very difficult.

 

[Holy Mole]

I don't have the answers....though I believe there is no panacea here as the answer may be different in different cases.
Though I do not know them, I do respect Ron and Shelly Hamilton and believe they have been used of God in a great way. Listening to his music has brought great conviction to my heart when little other was getting through. My heart breaks for these people. 

 

[Anchor]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

 

[Timothy]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

 

[Timothy]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

Demonic oppression, the work of evil spiritual forces that urge us to sin ... but not possession, right?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

Demonic oppression, the work of evil spiritual forces that urge us to sin ... but not possession, right?

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Despite the silliness of the logic here, Paul's claim seems to indicate a physical ailment of some kind. Does that mean "possession"? Not sure, but it seems to be more than just an "urging us to sin".

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

Demonic oppression, the work of evil spiritual forces that urge us to sin ... but not possession, right?

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Despite the silliness of the logic here, Paul's claim seems to indicate a physical ailment of some kind. Does that mean "possession"? Not sure, but it seems to be more than just an "urging us to sin".

Not silly at all.  The messenger of Satan is a demon just like the messenger of God is an angel.  Not every illness is a messenger of Satan.  Not possession - oppression. 

Timothy, your urges to sin may just be your deceitfully wicked heart.  We have taken this thread somewhat off course and further discussion definitely will do so.  PM me if you have further questions.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

Demonic oppression, the work of evil spiritual forces that urge us to sin ... but not possession, right?

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Despite the silliness of the logic here, Paul's claim seems to indicate a physical ailment of some kind. Does that mean "possession"? Not sure, but it seems to be more than just an "urging us to sin".

Not silly at all.  The messenger of Satan is a demon just like the messenger of God is an angel.  Not every illness is a messenger of Satan.  Not possession - oppression. 

Timothy, your urges to sin may just be your deceitfully wicked heart.  We have taken this thread somewhat off course and further discussion definitely will do so.  PM me if you have further questions.

The silliness lies within the idea that Satan would have any part of bringing humility to the life of Paul. It seems obvious that Satan would actually want Paul to become conceited and strive to maintain his pride.

I do agree with you that not every illness is a messenger of Satan.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Despite the silliness of the logic here, Paul's claim seems to indicate a physical ailment of some kind. Does that mean "possession"? Not sure, but it seems to be more than just an "urging us to sin".

Not silly at all.  The messenger of Satan is a demon just like the messenger of God is an angel.  Not every illness is a messenger of Satan.  Not possession - oppression. 

Timothy, your urges to sin may just be your deceitfully wicked heart.  We have taken this thread somewhat off course and further discussion definitely will do so.  PM me if you have further questions.

The silliness lies within the idea that Satan would have any part of bringing humility to the life of Paul. It seems obvious that Satan would actually want Paul to become conceited and strive to maintain his pride.

I do agree with you that not every illness is a messenger of Satan.

Oh.  I don't see it that way though.  I believe Satan was trying to discourage Paul or hinder his ability to accomplish God's work for Paul.  God in His Sovereignty allowed the hindrance so that Paul would continue to rely upon God because he had a regular issue for which he could not overcome and needed God.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

It is wrong for people with depression not to be referred to a mental health professional or at least to their doctor. When a pastor attempts to counsel such people he is playing with fire - and they and their families can pay a very high price for his negligence/arrogance/incompetance.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

It is wrong for people with depression not to be referred to a mental health professional or at least to their doctor. When a pastor attempts to counsel such people he is playing with fire - and they and their families can pay a very high price for his negligence/arrogance/incompetance.

If you go back through the posts, I stated that this might be something to consider when medical professionals are unable to help.  SOMETIMES there is more to depression than chemical imbalance or mental/physical handicap.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The Jay Adam's approach to counseling did not promote medical opinion.

However, many Christian counselors are now working in tandem with medical professionals.

We are soul/physical creatures and sometimes we need our physical side to be treated.

EXACTLY!

While going through depression after my cancer diagnosis and surgery, I needed both the meds and the professional counseling for a period of time. I'm thankful for both and that they worked in conjunction with one another.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Um.  Resisting doesn't work - Resting in Christ does.  If one is suffering from real demonic oppression and he is just told to "not give in" or "resist the urge" he is destined for destruction.  This is not easily handled and most Christians really have no understanding of the issue.

I have been doing an in depth study into spirit beings lately and I believe you may be onto something with the demonic oppression thing. 

And Scripture makes it very clear that there are some demons that do not respond to normal spiritual resources ("Why could not we cast him out?"), but seemingly require a particular (dare we say special or miraculous) work of grace.

This is frightening.

I have often wondered about demons ... and was always taught in Church they can't touch a Child of God.

Wrong.  They cannot possess a child of God.

Demonic oppression, the work of evil spiritual forces that urge us to sin ... but not possession, right?

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Despite the silliness of the logic here, Paul's claim seems to indicate a physical ailment of some kind. Does that mean "possession"? Not sure, but it seems to be more than just an "urging us to sin".

Not silly at all.  The messenger of Satan is a demon just like the messenger of God is an angel.  Not every illness is a messenger of Satan.  Not possession - oppression. 

Timothy, your urges to sin may just be your deceitfully wicked heart.  We have taken this thread somewhat off course and further discussion definitely will do so.  PM me if you have further questions.

The silliness lies within the idea that Satan would have any part of bringing humility to the life of Paul. It seems obvious that Satan would actually want Paul to become conceited and strive to maintain his pride.

I do agree with you that not every illness is a messenger of Satan.

There are many times God used Satan and his minions as His tool.... messengers and, in Nebuchadnezzars case, as His sword. All in dealing with His people.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

The Jay Adam's approach to counseling did not promote medical opinion.

However, many Christian counselors are now working in tandem with medical professionals.

We are soul/physical creatures and sometimes we need our physical side to be treated.

In our counseling we refer many to their medical doctors to see if there might be a physical or medical reason for their depression or anxiety.
We also regularly refer many to Psychiatrists....preferably to those we know are Christians. We still have many Christians in that field down here, thankfully.
Many in the secular counseling field view 'religion' as an aggravating factor in psychological problems.

 

[FSSL]

In our counseling we refer many to their medical doctors to see if there might be a physical or medical reason for their depression or anxiety.
We also regularly refer many to Psychiatrists....preferably to those we know are Christians. We still have many Christians in that field down here, thankfully.
Many in the secular counseling field view 'religion' as an aggravating factor in psychological problems.

Yes. I was trained in nouthetic counseling by Westminster grads. They had a very reasonable approach to counseling.
Psychiatrists certainly can help... hopefully, but not likely, their resistance will lessen. Perhaps they will be far less apprehensive as you get to know them and handle situations well.

 

[Reformed Guy]

The Jay Adam's approach to counseling did not promote medical opinion.

.

That is incorrect. 

http://www.nouthetic.org/nouthetic-counselors-oppose-the-use-of-medicine-don-t-they

 

[FSSL]

The Jay Adam's approach to counseling did not promote medical opinion.

That is incorrect. 

http://www.nouthetic.org/nouthetic-counselors-oppose-the-use-of-medicine-don-t-they

That is good to know and I certainly need to rephrase what I wrote above.

In the early 90s, I read through everyone of his books and took basic and advanced courses in nouthetic counseling. Even my nouthetic profs taught us that there has been a shift in the view of medicine/doctors since the inception of Jay Adams approach. It did not strike me as strange because I definitely came away from some of his books with that impression.

It is good to see that he has noted a weakness in his approach by putting together The Christian Counselor’s Medical Desk Reference.

I was not far off in my assessment. Notice that in that article link, Adams is still definitely against psychotropic drugs. I, and many in the nouthetic community, disagree. During my courses, my profs gave us plenty of examples where there are times you need the help of a psychiatrist with drugs. Adams says that "pain is a friend." Your depressed counselee is sitting in your office because the pain is evident. It is what got the person to you. So, alleviate enough pain so that they can begin working on life issues. Too much pain/depression can actually prevent a person from thinking clearly. On the other side of the same coin, too much drugs can prevent a person from thinking clearly.

I know Christians helped by a well-regulated amount of psychotrophic drugs. I also know others hurt by them. Here are the success examples where people were given psychotropic drugs:

1) An adult Christian lady battled the assurance of her salvation so much that it consumed her thoughts to such a degree that she was debilitated and wept uncontrollably. She was helped by well-regulated drugs. I believe she has been weaned off them.

2) A child was so depressed and behaving as autistic. A small amount of psychotropic drugs, administered by a Psychiatrist, along with questioning, revealed that she was being molested.

3) A child was oxygen-deprived during birth. This child has to have some amount of psychotropic/psychoactive drugs so that he is no longer a dangerous child to himself and others.

Sadly, even those who are given a good amount of counseling and physical help are unable to cope. I don't know Jon Hamilton. I am not suggesting, in the least, that I know what happened or what could of helped.

What I do know is that we need to be prepared to lovingly be there and encourage our fellow brothers/sisters in their pain and NOT give them the advice of Jay Adams that "pain is a friend." I appreciate and value his approach, however, like all of us, we can overstate things at times.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

At my former IFBx church people were NOT referred out for depression. It was handled very badly, with some horrible results.