Restoration

[RAIDER]

it;s really sad that fundamentalists don;t spend as much time exploring ways to protect the vulnerable members of their congregations.... or work as hard to help those who were injured heal... as they do mulling and fretting over the fate of their favorite orators.... who were once trusted shepherds... but turned wolf and began preying on the sheep.... ..

i think before you even try to consider whether or not you can restore a predatory wolf-like preacher to service you should go out and find a real wolf who has fed on real sheep and see if you can train it to become a loyal sheep dog..... .... there is a very good reason that ranchers who raise real sheep do not even spare their own beloved shepherd dogs.. once those dogs turn predator and begin killing sheep.......  instead they kill such a dog, and hang him from a fence post, as an example to the other dogs in the shepherds service.. of the fate that will befall them if they do they same.....

another thing you should consider... or at least study... is how many times people convicted of heinous crimes come out of prison after serving their time and say the stretch was worth it...... it would chill your blood to hear what some of them say when they think nobody who matters is listening.....

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

Even then, his restoration is limited due not to his sin but to the crime.  Right?  Honestly, while a church could not forbid him from attending, participating, etc., they would have to somehow limit where he sits, in which activities he participates, etc.

Yes, I agree.  I'm sure it would not be wise for him to be involved in any ministries with kids or teens.  I'm just not willing to say that after JS pays for his crime and proves himself over a time period that he cannot be used again in some way.

 

[RAIDER]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

So from your point of view JS is not a born again Christian?

I believe that he is not.  I have heard him make a point in a sermon, as if it were the gospel...then spend the next 10 minutes undoing the point, without a word of explanation as to why. I have heard him mock Bible believers, calling them ignorant.  I have heard him say that he realized he didnt believe the Bible, Christianity, etc., yet he would still 'preach'  meetings, going to the hotel and flinging his Bible across the room, "none of this is true, anyhow".  He said "I guess I slowly walked out of this dark place". 
I watched him say 'controversial' things, as if he were testing the church, to see what we would let him get by with, or to see if we really kmew what we believed.  I watched him systematically dismantle the teachings of Bro. Hyles, the ones I agreed with, and claim to enshrine him at the same time. 
  At times, I felt like he was wishing he could be rescued from the tortured life he lived, like he knew he was in over his head.  In person, he often seem depressed.  He was well known to not remember what he had said last, and to contradict himself.  And lastly, he was an arrogant pompous ass.
  I believe he was a Satanic plant.  The church is nearly bankrupt and ruined.  Churches all over America have a pastor who has become prideful, charismatic music, doubt about the scriptures, etc, who were influenced by Hammond.  I'd say by their fuit, ye shall know them.
I believe he is not a child of God.


Anishinabe

If that be the case, the Schaap situation would not be a good example of the OP.

 

[RAIDER]

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

and why does no one ever talk about helping the victims of people like jack schaap?..... why is restoring the perpetrator always more important than ministering to the people he injured?......... does the Bible say nothing about how to minister to people whose lives were devastated by a perpetrator and restore them to fellowship and usefulness as well?..... ....or are have those people already been written off as collateral damage?.... acceptable sacrifices in the mission to restore murderers and molesters back into fellowship?... ..... from what i hear the actual victim and her family in the jack schaap case were pretty much black listed and made to feel they were no longer welcome at fbch........ if it;s true... was that done in accordance to what the Bible talks about?.......

we had a very long discussion on the forum about this once before... not too long ago in fact..... in a thread about bringing registered sex offenders back into the congregation with former victims and vulnerable women and children.......  the law specifically says you can;t do it and that they are to find a church somewhere else that specifically ministers to predatory men trying to turn their lives over to God... a church where there are no women or children present..... ..... but some of the posters in that other thread indicated they didn;t care what the law said .... they would bring a sex offender right back into the same church ...... and even let him sit in the same pew with his former victims... because they thought it was the "right" thing to do... they said the perpetrators deserve another chance.... (chance to do what?... i asked.... look for new victims?)...... then they got really nasty and started slinging red marks at everyone who disagreed and believed men with predatory pasts should be given their "chances" in a separate ministry dedicated to men only.....

As you mentioned we have already discussed the victim needing help.  I believe the wide majority of us feel that this is greatly needed.  Just because we have a thread discussing restoration doesn't mean that we are tossing the victim off to the side.

 

[RAIDER]

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

and why does no one ever talk about helping the victims of people like jack schaap?..... why is restoring the perpetrator always more important than ministering to the people he injured?......... does the Bible say nothing about how to minister to people whose lives were devastated by a perpetrator and restore them to fellowship and usefulness as well?..... ....or are have those people already been written off as collateral damage?.... acceptable sacrifices in the mission to restore murderers and molesters back into fellowship?... ..... from what i hear the actual victim and her family in the jack schaap case were pretty much black listed and made to feel they were no longer welcome at fbch........ if it;s true... was that done in accordance to what the Bible talks about?.......

we had a very long discussion on the forum about this once before... not too long ago in fact..... in a thread about bringing registered sex offenders back into the congregation with former victims and vulnerable women and children.......  the law specifically says you can;t do it and that they are to find a church somewhere else that specifically ministers to predatory men trying to turn their lives over to God... a church where there are no women or children present..... ..... but some of the posters in that other thread indicated they didn;t care what the law said .... they would bring a sex offender right back into the same church ...... and even let him sit in the same pew with his former victims... because they thought it was the "right" thing to do... they said the perpetrators deserve another chance.... (chance to do what?... i asked.... look for new victims?)...... then they got really nasty and started slinging red marks at everyone who disagreed and believed men with predatory pasts should be given their "chances" in a separate ministry dedicated to men only.....

You are right Al. I know you don't live in this area and most of you do not hear all of the little things I do. When this first happened there was some talk that the girl and her family had to move because they were receiving calls from some misguided church members (and they have quite a few) about how they had caused the mog to fall. Then at the sentencing hearing she wrote a letter to the judge. But, That is absolutely the LAST I have heard about her or her family. Quite a bit about the Schaap's and jack and where he is and how he is but absolutely NOTHING about her or her family.

If the church members did this it was wicked and evil.  As you mentioned, no one has heard about the girl or her family.  I hope this means they have received help and have been able to protect their privacy.  We know what happened to JS and where he is.

 

[Bravo]

As you mentioned we have already discussed the victim needing help.  I believe the wide majority of us feel that this is greatly needed.  Just because we have a thread discussing restoration doesn't mean that we are tossing the victim off to the side.

??? ... really?...... then explain what you said next.......

If the church members did this it was wicked and evil.  As you mentioned, no one has heard about the girl or her family.  I hope this means they have received help and have been able to protect their privacy.  We know what happened to JS and where he is.

sounds like you allowed the church to do exactly what you denied doing in the first post..... to toss the girl and her whole family off to the side then run them out of town to boot........ and now it;s a simple case of out of sight out of mind for you.......  ...... you have twelve years before you will ever have to worry about what to do with schaap...... yet here you had an entire family who was devastated by his insidious actions and now you don;t even know where they are?...... ... you say you "hope" they received help somewhere?..... ...

instead of worrying about how they are going to deal with schaap 12 years from now..... people in leadership and with any authority or influence at HAC and FBCH should be worrying about how they will answer to God for the way they failed that girl and her family.......

A couple of things,...

1. Raider doesn't go to FBC, so he didn't "do" anything.

2. It wasn't "we the people" at FBC that asked or advised that family to leave. They were in no danger from us. I think "they" didn't want the constant reminder/indictment around. It would be hard to sell some of the stuff Eddie L was selling if she or her family was still around I imagine.

 

[qwerty]

It would be difficult to attend a church that you are civilly suing.  They left on their own, probably the best move they made the past few years.

 

[BALAAM]

In order for anyone to be restored to fellowship, they have to desire to be restored. It is the same with forgiveness. When you are wronged you can offer forgiveness but I don't think it takes place unless the person who did the wrong wishes for forgiveness. Same with salvation. Salvation is offered to all but not everyone receives it.

It is kind of moot to talk about js. For one thing from what I have heard he has no desire to be restored to fellowship. He blames all his troubles on other people. Secondly, none of his family will be left in Indiana so I doubt he would ever go back there.

As far as being usable again, there is no man on earth that can deem you unusable.

 

[RAIDER]

As you mentioned we have already discussed the victim needing help.  I believe the wide majority of us feel that this is greatly needed.  Just because we have a thread discussing restoration doesn't mean that we are tossing the victim off to the side.

??? ... really?...... then explain what you said next.......

If the church members did this it was wicked and evil.  As you mentioned, no one has heard about the girl or her family.  I hope this means they have received help and have been able to protect their privacy.  We know what happened to JS and where he is.

sounds like you allowed the church to do exactly what you denied doing in the first post..... to toss the girl and her whole family off to the side then run them out of town to boot........ and now it;s a simple case of out of sight out of mind for you.......  ...... you have twelve years before you will ever have to worry about what to do with schaap...... yet here you had an entire family who was devastated by his insidious actions and now you don;t even know where they are?...... ... you say you "hope" they received help somewhere?..... ...

instead of worrying about how they are going to deal with schaap 12 years from now..... people in leadership and with any authority or influence at HAC and FBCH should be worrying about how they will answer to God for the way they failed that girl and her family.......

Aleshanee, I'm not sure why you are reading so much more into things than is intended.  I do not attend FBCH.  I have no idea who the girl was or who her family is.  It is obvious that the girl needs help.  She was the victim.   

You say that the people of FBCH failed the girl and her family.  You say they tossed the girl and her family off to the side and ran them out of town.  You must know many more details than I do to make these statements.  I did not realize that was what happened.  I thought maybe they were getting help and desired to get our of the area.  Again, you must have many more details. 

i started this thread not to downplay what needs to be done to help the victum, but rather to discuss restoration of a Christian who is in "deep" sin.  Schaap was just the example I used.  It could be any Christian in any church.

 

[RAIDER]

As you mentioned we have already discussed the victim needing help.  I believe the wide majority of us feel that this is greatly needed.  Just because we have a thread discussing restoration doesn't mean that we are tossing the victim off to the side.

??? ... really?...... then explain what you said next.......

If the church members did this it was wicked and evil.  As you mentioned, no one has heard about the girl or her family.  I hope this means they have received help and have been able to protect their privacy.  We know what happened to JS and where he is.

sounds like you allowed the church to do exactly what you denied doing in the first post..... to toss the girl and her whole family off to the side then run them out of town to boot........ and now it;s a simple case of out of sight out of mind for you.......  ...... you have twelve years before you will ever have to worry about what to do with schaap...... yet here you had an entire family who was devastated by his insidious actions and now you don;t even know where they are?...... ... you say you "hope" they received help somewhere?..... ...

instead of worrying about how they are going to deal with schaap 12 years from now..... people in leadership and with any authority or influence at HAC and FBCH should be worrying about how they will answer to God for the way they failed that girl and her family.......

A couple of things,...

1. Raider doesn't go to FBC, so he didn't "do" anything.

2. It wasn't "we the people" at FBC that asked or advised that family to leave. They were in no danger from us. I think "they" didn't want the constant reminder/indictment around. It would be hard to sell some of the stuff Eddie L was selling if she or her family was still around I imagine.

Thanks, Bravo.

 

[qwerty]

It would be difficult to attend a church that you are civilly suing.  They left on their own, probably the best move they made the past few years.

i;m just speaking theoretically because i don;t even know the church....

Um....nevermind

 

[RAIDER]

It would be difficult to attend a church that you are civilly suing.  They left on their own, probably the best move they made the past few years.

i;m just speaking theoretically because i don;t even know the church....

Um....nevermind

That one confused me to.  FBCH was accused of mistreating the girl and her family and running them out of town.  The next comment is "I don't even know the church".  I think we may be painting with a broad brush.

 

[Bruh]

it;s really sad that fundamentalists don;t spend as much time exploring ways to protect the vulnerable members of their congregations.... or work as hard to help those who were injured heal... as they do mulling and fretting over the fate of their favorite orators.... who were once trusted shepherds... but turned wolf and began preying on the sheep.... ..

i think before you even try to consider whether or not you can restore a predatory wolf-like preacher to service you should go out and find a real wolf who has fed on real sheep and see if you can train it to become a loyal sheep dog..... .... there is a very good reason that ranchers who raise real sheep do not even spare their own beloved shepherd dogs.. once those dogs turn predator and begin killing sheep.......  instead they kill such a dog, and hang him from a fence post, as an example to the other dogs in the shepherds service.. of the fate that will befall them if they do they same.....

another thing you should consider... or at least study... is how many times people convicted of heinous crimes come out of prison after serving their time and say the stretch was worth it...... it would chill your blood to hear what some of them say when they think nobody who matters is listening.....

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

Even then, his restoration is limited due not to his sin but to the crime.  Right?  Honestly, while a church could not forbid him from attending, participating, etc., they would have to somehow limit where he sits, in which activities he participates, etc.

Yes, I agree. I'm sure it would not be wise for him to be involved in any ministries with kids or teens.  I'm just not willing to say that after JS pays for his crime and proves himself over a time period that he cannot be used again in some way.

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home. 

 

[RAIDER]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

 

[Bruh]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

I just hope he doesn't come walking into my church.  LOL!!!

 

[RAIDER]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

I just hope he doesn't come walking into my church.  LOL!!!

Some Sunday you will walk into your class and they will say, "We want to introduce your new teacher." 

 

[kaba]

Don't remember all the details, but Hyles had called my Pastor looking for a place for Dave to attend! I think it was before he landed at Baldy's fathers's church.  So glad he didnt feel lead to come to ours......Too bad Schaap won't have Hyles to help him bribe/find a church!

 

[Bruh]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

I just hope he doesn't come walking into my church.  LOL!!!

Some Sunday you will walk into your class and they will say, "We want to introduce your new teacher." 

Well, I do teach Sunday School from time to time as well as fill the pulpit.  But if my pastor knew I was on here, I think all of the would cease.  So, don't tell anyone I'm on here. 

 

[RAIDER]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

I just hope he doesn't come walking into my church.  LOL!!!

Some Sunday you will walk into your class and they will say, "We want to introduce your new teacher." 

Well, I do teach Sunday School from time to time as well as fill the pulpit.  But if my pastor knew I was on here, I think all of the would cease.  So, don't tell anyone I'm on here.

Your secret is safe with we Hackers!!

 

[16KJV11]

It would be difficult to attend a church that you are civilly suing.  They left on their own, probably the best move they made the past few years.

I agree...and I would bet dollars to donuts that their legal counsel gave them the advice to leave.

 

[16KJV11]

IMO, I'm sure it would not be wise for him to serve in any ministry with kids, teen girls or adult women.  Something like, jail ministry or maybe even a nursing home.

Agreed.  I also think there would need to be a "proving" time where he would just be a pew filling church member.  How long that would be, I don't know.

I just hope he doesn't come walking into my church.  LOL!!!

Some Sunday you will walk into your class and they will say, "We want to introduce your new teacher." 

Well, I do teach Sunday School from time to time as well as fill the pulpit.  But if my pastor knew I was on here, I think all of the would cease.  So, don't tell anyone I'm on here.

Your secret is safe with we Hackers!!

For a price!