Restoration

[RAIDER]

On the HAC FFF we spend a lot of time discussing the sin of teachers and preachers with whom we have been acquainted.  There are always several different reactions - total discuss, shock, broken heartedness, anger, unbelief, etc.  The Schaap situation is an example of this.  Even though many of us had become critical of Schaap's preaching and teaching, I believe what he did was a total shock to most of us.  We have each shared our thoughts in a multitude of threads and posts. 

We all agree that what Schaap did was wicked and evil.  Everyone had an opinion of what should be done to him.  He went through the court of law and was sentenced for his crimes.  I don't know Schaap's heart and motives.  I don't know if he has truly repented.  I don't know where he is in his spiritual life.  I do know that he is flesh and there go we but by the grace of God. 

As I read some of the posts on the topic, I have to wonder where we stand on restoration.  Some wanted Schaap to go to prison for life regardless of what the law says.  Some feel that Cindy should divorce him and never speak to him again.  Some were angry when people wrote character reference letters to the court on Schaap's behalf.  Some feel that he should be blackballed for life.  Some feel that any good he has ever done should be wiped out.  I'm sure that the severity of the crime brought out an angry initial reaction from many.

All of that to bring us to the topic of this thread.  Again, I'm just using the Schaap situation as an example.  You can plug in any other story that you want.  As Christians, what should be our desire as far as restoration goes?  When a Christian sins to this level should he be placed on a permanent shelf?  Should he be forsaken by all?  Should no one speak good of him again?  Can he be restored to a place of usefulness?  What proof of repentance is needed?  Should people keep their distance?  Can trust ever be earned again?

Hacker Nation, what think ye?!!     

           

 

[prophet]

Read Jude.

Anishinabe

 

[patriotic]

On the HAC FFF we spend a lot of time discussing the sin of teachers and preachers with whom we have been acquainted.  There are always several different reactions - total discuss, shock, broken heartedness, anger, unbelief, etc.  The Schaap situation is an example of this.  Even though many of us had become critical of Schaap's preaching and teaching, I believe what he did was a total shock to most of us.  We have each shared our thoughts in a multitude of threads and posts. 

We all agree that what Schaap did was wicked and evil.  Everyone had an opinion of what should be done to him.  He went through the court of law and was sentenced for his crimes.  I don't know Schaap's heart and motives.  I don't know if he has truly repented.  I don't know where he is in his spiritual life.  I do know that he is flesh and there go we but by the grace of God. 

As I read some of the posts on the topic, I have to wonder where we stand on restoration.  Some wanted Schaap to go to prison for life regardless of what the law says.  Some feel that Cindy should divorce him and never speak to him again.  Some were angry when people wrote character reference letters to the court on Schaap's behalf.  Some feel that he should be blackballed for life.  Some feel that any good he has ever done should be wiped out.  I'm sure that the severity of the crime brought out an angry initial reaction from many.

All of that to bring us to the topic of this thread.  Again, I'm just using the Schaap situation as an example.  You can plug in any other story that you want.  As Christians, what should be our desire as far as restoration goes?  When a Christian sins to this level should he be placed on a permanent shelf?  Should he be forsaken by all?  Should no one speak good of him again?  Can he be restored to a place of usefulness?  What proof of repentance is needed?  Should people keep their distance?  Can trust ever be earned again?

Hacker Nation, what think ye?!!     

         

Three words that should never be in the same sentence. 

Seriously, God can and is willing to use him again in some capacity if JS is truly sorrowful for his sin and wrong-doing.  However, I do not believe he can ever serve in some position of service such as pastor or other church or church ministry staff. 

As far as divorce, I am not for it, but would totally understand if it were to happen.  Would he deserve it?  Maybe.  That's between the two of them and their relationship with each other and with God.

I can understand those who wrote letters in his support although I would not personally do so.  I did not understand those who tried to cast the blame on something or someone other than JS.

I think his sentence is fair; at the very least it's an easier sentence than a millstone around his neck before going for a swim or an Old Testament stoning....or I guess it is. 

 

[PappaBear]

[quote author=Raider]When a Christian sins to this level ...[/quote]
What level?  You mean such as having his own father's wife kinda level, not even named amongst the Gentiles?  See 2Cor 2:5-11 for an example.

For me, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "restoration."  It can't be to salvation, for we believe that can never be lost (1Peter 1:5).  For that reason, the habit by many is to doubt the offender's salvation.  But in that case, how should we respond to a lost person who egregiously sins?  Should it not be in concern and love for their lost soul.

As far as family, we need to remember that marriage is a type of Christ's love for the church.  Remember, "for this cause ... but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Eph 5:31,32)?  If we are faithful to the example, an offended spouse should attempt to wash the filthy garments with the washing of water by the word (think here of the literal meaning -- kind, loving words).  God hates putting away.  Divorce should not be such an hasty option to be pounced upon.  Recall how Abigail treated Nabal in 1Sam 25.  God can take care of such situations when appropriate.

As for church members and Christians, there should be (must be!) church discipline in such matters.  This is a doctrine that has fallen by the wayside far too long in Baptist Churches.  There is Bible support for its practice, and for good reason.  Our practice should conform to the Bible in 1Cor 6 and 2Thess 3, never forgetting the final admonition in 2Thess 3:15, "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."  That is that we should avoid their company until satisfactory evidence (not a mere mumbly-mouthed apology) of true repentance (see 2Cor 2:5-11 ref'd above for such an example).  A Christian who has truly gotten right with God needs to be afforded an opportunity to worship in an assembly with other Christians.  The sad truth is that many just flee to a different congregation to hide their error and continue their wickedness (recalling Dave Hyles, here). 

Now, for ministry.  That is a horse of a different color.  Bishops and deacons (the only Biblical officers according to Baptists) are to be qualified.  There is a difference between fellowship and followship.  I have no problem with extending a hand and good word to someone who has sinned and repented, but I do take issue with those who expect me to submit my family to leadership that has demonstrated demoralizing failure in the ministry.  I interpret 1Cor 9:27 as Paul keeping his passions under control so that he does not become a castaway from ministry, not from salvation.  As far as ministry and leadership is concerned, I do believe it is possible to lose that qualification permanently, even though your personal gifts and calling of God are without repentance.  What I have seen very much over time is that leaders, especially pastors, attempt to justify their failures long after their supposed repentance and put themselves back into the ministry for a couple of reasons. 

First, because they still have a desire, even gifts, to lead.  I'm sorry, but your personal wishes are not justifiable reasons to allow such an one to continue.

Secondly, because of the need.  "There are not enough 'good' preachers and churches.  I am a fundamentalists and soul winner."  This is absolutely the hardest part of church discipline, in my mind.  When you are called upon to discipline a person who you really feel is needed within the ministry.  But I have seen many disasters result from compromise in this area.  I do not care how gifted he may appear, the last thing any church needs either in Sunday School, the bus ministry, or in church ministry is a pervert or ex-pervert subjecting themselves to the same temptations.

 

[PappaBear]

btw .. you specifically stated that you did not limit this to Jack Schaap.  With HAC's propensity to value everything based on the practical "does it work?" instead of "is it right?" mode of thought, you might consider the case of Jim Bakker from the old PTL scandal years ago.  He served his sentence, and .... he's baaaa-aaaa-aack.  After serving his time in prision, he has relocated, remarried (she looks strikingly a lot like the old Tammy Faye), and renewed his old ministry.

Though many fundamentalists will cough into their hands and point out he is charasmatic and "not our kind," they should all be reminded that we said the same thing when the PTL scandal, and then Swaggert scandals hit.  We thought that could not happen to us.  Now, 25+ years later, when it appears many of our fundamentals "stars" seemed to repeat the same stumbles, are we so dense to think that if Joe Combs or Jack Schaap did get out of prision they would not attempt a "I was wrong, I'm sorry." tour and then stage an attempted return?  Especially JS, considering his association with emergent church leaders.  How should we/will we deal with such situations?

 

[prophet]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

 

[Fresh Air]

[size=12pt]it;s really sad that fundamentalists don;t spend as much time exploring ways to protect the vulnerable members of their congregations.... or work as hard to help those who were injured heal... as they do mulling and fretting over the fate of their favorite orators.... who were once trusted shepherds... but turned wolf and began preying on the sheep.... ..

i think before you even try to consider whether or not you can restore a predatory wolf-like preacher to service you should go out and find a real wolf who has fed on real sheep and see if you can train it to become a loyal sheep dog..... .... there is a very good reason that ranchers who raise real sheep do not even spare their own beloved shepherd dogs.. once those dogs turn predator and begin killing sheep.......  instead they kill such a dog, and hang him from a fence post, as an example to the other dogs in the shepherds service.. of the fate that will befall them if they do they same.....

What she said...

 

[Sherryh]

Cindy has every right to divorce.  In 12 years let's see what js will do maybe missions....

 

[lnf]

Yes, prison ministry would be a good mission field.

 

[PappaBear]

the people on mission fields deserve better than that.... why send them a sexual predator?....... but he could start a jail ministry
right now if he wanted to......   
....... and in my opinion that;s where it should stay.... ......... even after the 12 years.... 

Amen, sister, Amen!  even after the 12 years.... 

 

[RAIDER]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

So from your point of view JS is not a born again Christian?

 

[RAIDER]

it;s really sad that fundamentalists don;t spend as much time exploring ways to protect the vulnerable members of their congregations.... or work as hard to help those who were injured heal... as they do mulling and fretting over the fate of their favorite orators.... who were once trusted shepherds... but turned wolf and began preying on the sheep.... ..

i think before you even try to consider whether or not you can restore a predatory wolf-like preacher to service you should go out and find a real wolf who has fed on real sheep and see if you can train it to become a loyal sheep dog..... .... there is a very good reason that ranchers who raise real sheep do not even spare their own beloved shepherd dogs.. once those dogs turn predator and begin killing sheep.......  instead they kill such a dog, and hang him from a fence post, as an example to the other dogs in the shepherds service.. of the fate that will befall them if they do they same.....

another thing you should consider... or at least study... is how many times people convicted of heinous crimes come out of prison after serving their time and say the stretch was worth it...... it would chill your blood to hear what some of them say when they think nobody who matters is listening.....

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

 

[patriotic]

it;s really sad that fundamentalists don;t spend as much time exploring ways to protect the vulnerable members of their congregations.... or work as hard to help those who were injured heal... as they do mulling and fretting over the fate of their favorite orators.... who were once trusted shepherds... but turned wolf and began preying on the sheep.... ..

i think before you even try to consider whether or not you can restore a predatory wolf-like preacher to service you should go out and find a real wolf who has fed on real sheep and see if you can train it to become a loyal sheep dog..... .... there is a very good reason that ranchers who raise real sheep do not even spare their own beloved shepherd dogs.. once those dogs turn predator and begin killing sheep.......  instead they kill such a dog, and hang him from a fence post, as an example to the other dogs in the shepherds service.. of the fate that will befall them if they do they same.....

another thing you should consider... or at least study... is how many times people convicted of heinous crimes come out of prison after serving their time and say the stretch was worth it...... it would chill your blood to hear what some of them say when they think nobody who matters is listening.....

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

Even then, his restoration is limited due not to his sin but to the crime.  Right?  Honestly, while a church could not forbid him from attending, participating, etc., they would have to somehow limit where he sits, in which activities he participates, etc. 

 

[prophet]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

So from your point of view JS is not a born again Christian?

I believe that he is not.  I have heard him make a point in a sermon, as if it were the gospel...then spend the next 10 minutes undoing the point, without a word of explanation as to why. I have heard him mock Bible believers, calling them ignorant.  I have heard him say that he realized he didnt believe the Bible, Christianity, etc., yet he would still 'preach'  meetings, going to the hotel and flinging his Bible across the room, "none of this is true, anyhow".  He said "I guess I slowly walked out of this dark place". 
I watched him say 'controversial' things, as if he were testing the church, to see what we would let him get by with, or to see if we really kmew what we believed.  I watched him systematically dismantle the teachings of Bro. Hyles, the ones I agreed with, and claim to enshrine him at the same time. 
  At times, I felt like he was wishing he could be rescued from the tortured life he lived, like he knew he was in over his head.  In person, he often seem depressed.  He was well known to not remember what he had said last, and to contradict himself.  And lastly, he was an arrogant pompous ass.
  I believe he was a Satanic plant.  The church is nearly bankrupt and ruined.  Churches all over America have a pastor who has become prideful, charismatic music, doubt about the scriptures, etc, who were influenced by Hammond.  I'd say by their fuit, ye shall know them.
I believe he is not a child of God.


Anishinabe

 

[Sherryh]

Prophet, its sad but true....no one wants anyone to fail...js failed his wife,family,church and himself.

 

[lnf]

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

and why does no one ever talk about helping the victims of people like jack schaap?..... why is restoring the perpetrator always more important than ministering to the people he injured?......... does the Bible say nothing about how to minister to people whose lives were devastated by a perpetrator and restore them to fellowship and usefulness as well?..... ....or are have those people already been written off as collateral damage?.... acceptable sacrifices in the mission to restore murderers and molesters back into fellowship?... ..... from what i hear the actual victim and her family in the jack schaap case were pretty much black listed and made to feel they were no longer welcome at fbch........ if it;s true... was that done in accordance to what the Bible talks about?.......

we had a very long discussion on the forum about this once before... not too long ago in fact..... in a thread about bringing registered sex offenders back into the congregation with former victims and vulnerable women and children.......  the law specifically says you can;t do it and that they are to find a church somewhere else that specifically ministers to predatory men trying to turn their lives over to God... a church where there are no women or children present..... ..... but some of the posters in that other thread indicated they didn;t care what the law said .... they would bring a sex offender right back into the same church ...... and even let him sit in the same pew with his former victims... because they thought it was the "right" thing to do... they said the perpetrators deserve another chance.... (chance to do what?... i asked.... look for new victims?)...... then they got really nasty and started slinging red marks at everyone who disagreed and believed men with predatory pasts should be given their "chances" in a separate ministry dedicated to men only.....

You're right, aleshanee.  There is much talk about restoration, but not so much about healing or protection.  It seems as though we have gone the way of our legal system...it's all about the "rights" of the perpetrators.  The victims just need to forgive and get over it.  Ugh!

 

[BALAAM]

I was probably too vague in my OP.  I am not talking about restoring someone like JS to the ministry or too a place of authority.  I am talking about restoring an individual to fellowship and usefulness in the body of Christ.  I do believe the Bible talkis about such.

and why does no one ever talk about helping the victims of people like jack schaap?..... why is restoring the perpetrator always more important than ministering to the people he injured?......... does the Bible say nothing about how to minister to people whose lives were devastated by a perpetrator and restore them to fellowship and usefulness as well?..... ....or are have those people already been written off as collateral damage?.... acceptable sacrifices in the mission to restore murderers and molesters back into fellowship?... ..... from what i hear the actual victim and her family in the jack schaap case were pretty much black listed and made to feel they were no longer welcome at fbch........ if it;s true... was that done in accordance to what the Bible talks about?.......

we had a very long discussion on the forum about this once before... not too long ago in fact..... in a thread about bringing registered sex offenders back into the congregation with former victims and vulnerable women and children.......  the law specifically says you can;t do it and that they are to find a church somewhere else that specifically ministers to predatory men trying to turn their lives over to God... a church where there are no women or children present..... ..... but some of the posters in that other thread indicated they didn;t care what the law said .... they would bring a sex offender right back into the same church ...... and even let him sit in the same pew with his former victims... because they thought it was the "right" thing to do... they said the perpetrators deserve another chance.... (chance to do what?... i asked.... look for new victims?)...... then they got really nasty and started slinging red marks at everyone who disagreed and believed men with predatory pasts should be given their "chances" in a separate ministry dedicated to men only.....

You are right Al. I know you don't live in this area and most of you do not hear all of the little things I do. When this first happened there was some talk that the girl and her family had to move because they were receiving calls from some misguided church members (and they have quite a few) about how they had caused the mog to fall. Then at the sentencing hearing she wrote a letter to the judge. But, That is absolutely the LAST I have heard about her or her family. Quite a bit about the Schaap's and jack and where he is and how he is but absolutely NOTHING about her or her family.

 

[kaba]

I agree Aleshanee! Victims seem to carry the hurt with them for years! We do need to be more concerned for their restoration!

 

[Boomer]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

Well said, Prophet. His letters to her gave me the creeps. I can understand a real Christian falling into sin. We are all capable of it. I just cannot understand how a genuine Christian could have so little fear of God that he would tell a teenage girl that her adultery with him was just like the ministry of the angels to Jesus in Gethsemane. How could a real Christian make such a mockery of his Savior???

 

[prophet]

Ok, Read the transcripts of What JS told the girl, to get under her skirt.  Then read his sexualization of our relationship with Christ.  Then look up the definition of "lasciviousness".  Then read Jude.
Jude is telling us that we should have fought against his heresy,  because sometimes we find out that an imposter has crept in, and the telltale sign is...
  You can't restore a tare. 

Give me a man who fell off of the wagon, or somethin', and we'll talk restoration. 
You reap what you sow, and the church can't overturn that law.  That's why qualifications are listed, for the 2 church offices.
But God doesn't have anything recorded against them, and He looks at most of our sins as equal.  Exception being : casting a stumbling block in front of our weaker brother.

Anishinabe

Well said, Prophet. His letters to her gave me the creeps. I can understand a real Christian falling into sin. We are all capable of it. I just cannot understand how a genuine Christian could have so little fear of God that he would tell a teenage girl that her adultery with him was just like the ministry of the angels to Jesus in Gethsemane. How could a real Christian make such a mockery of his Savior???

Hence Jude's warning.

Anishinabe