Music in Ministry

[Binaca Chugger]

A few posts I have made in other threads seem to have generated much good discussion.  So, I thought I would start a new thread just for this topic.

Here is the basic question: 
Does the Bible give us instruction as to good vs. bad music?

I have heard numerous sermons on music throughout the years, but very few have satisfied my answer.  Finally, I had to do some research and come to my own conclusions that I could use as guidelines.  Here are my foundational thoughts:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Music is very involved in the worship of God.
[*]Satan, a musical being himself, perverts anything that is to glorify God.
[*]Therefore, there must be a good and bad music.
[*]Music that promotes carnality or sin is obviously wrong, since the words directly contradict the teachings of the Scripture
[*]Music styles have an uncanny ability to cause emotion within us and stir old memories and feelings
[*]Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
[*]Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided
[/list]
From this jumping off point, I hope to engage in meaningful conversation backed primarily by Scripture. 

What reason do you give for using the music in ministry you do?

 

[Castor Muscular]

[list type=decimal]
[*]Music is very involved in the worship of God.
[*]Satan, a musical being himself, perverts anything that is to glorify God.
[*]Therefore, there must be a good and bad music.
[/list]

That is a non-sequitur. 

 

[christundivided]

I personally could care less what anyone listens to. I prefer somethings over others but realize that people are different.

I draw no line except what is in "good taste". Nothing vulgar or offensive and I do like to actually be able to understand what I am trying to listen to. This would leave out a lot of heavy metal music. If you like Heavy Metal, then listen to it. Just don't call it a "ministry".

6. Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
7. Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided

What kind of "style" causes carnality and sin? Style has nothing to do with it. That's like blaming a cool calm breeze for putting you to sleep instead of mowing the yard. I also expect my brother and sister to actually be "grown ups"...... and not to expect TOO MUCH out of someone else because they MIGHT get offended.

 

[rsc2a]

I personally could care less what anyone listens to. I prefer somethings over others but realize that people are different.

I draw no line except what is in "good taste". Nothing vulgar or offensive and I do like to actually be able to understand what I am trying to listen to. This would leave out a lot of heavy metal music. If you like Heavy Metal, then listen to it. Just don't call it a "ministry".

6. Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
7. Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided

What kind of "style" causes carnality and sin? Style has nothing to do with it. That's like blaming a cool calm breeze for putting you to sleep instead of mowing the yard. I also expect my brother and sister to actually be "grown ups"...... and not to expect TOO MUCH out of someone else because they MIGHT get offended.

I agree with CU!

 

[christundivided]

I personally could care less what anyone listens to. I prefer somethings over others but realize that people are different.

I draw no line except what is in "good taste". Nothing vulgar or offensive and I do like to actually be able to understand what I am trying to listen to. This would leave out a lot of heavy metal music. If you like Heavy Metal, then listen to it. Just don't call it a "ministry".

6. Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
7. Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided

What kind of "style" causes carnality and sin? Style has nothing to do with it. That's like blaming a cool calm breeze for putting you to sleep instead of mowing the yard. I also expect my brother and sister to actually be "grown ups"...... and not to expect TOO MUCH out of someone else because they MIGHT get offended.

I agree with CU!

That almost made my day

 

[Izdaari]

I agree with rsc2a and with CU.
When all 3 of us agree, we must be right.
Although I'm not sure it's ever happened before!

 

[Fresh Air]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached. Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do. What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached. Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do. What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.

Very well stated.  I have not used that verse, but it does apply well when terming music an emotional language.  That is a good term for music that summarizes what I have tried to convey elsewhere - thanks!

 

[Castor Muscular]

From Wikipedia:

The name diabolus in musica ("the Devil in music") has been applied to the interval [the tritone] from at least the early 18th century. Johann Joseph Fux cites the phrase in his seminal 1725 work Gradus ad Parnassum, Georg Philipp Telemann in 1733 describes, "mi against fa", which the ancients called "Satan in music", and Johann Mattheson in 1739 writes that the "older singers with solmization called this pleasant interval 'mi contra fa' or 'the devil in music'".[18] Although the latter two of these authors cite the association with the devil as from the past, there are no known citations of this term from the Middle Ages, as is commonly asserted.[19] However Denis Arnold, in the The New Oxford Companion to Music, suggests that the nickname was already applied early in the medieval music itself:

It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords and with the introduction of B flat as a diatonic note, at much the same time acquiring its nickname of "Diabolus in Musica" ("the devil in music").

Because of that original symbolic association with the devil and its avoidance, this interval came to be heard in Western cultural convention as suggesting an "evil" connotative meaning in music. Today the interval continues to suggest an "oppressive", "scary", or "evil" sound.

I'm hesitant to contradict anyone named Johann Joseph Fux, but every perfect authentic cadence includes a tritone (which resolves to the tonic, which is why it's a perfect authentic cadence).  Since the perfect authentic cadence is by far the most common chord progression in western music, I'd wager that the devil is in every piece of music you enjoy today, including most hymns (some use plagal cadences) and praise and worship music.

You can emphasize the tritone in order to make it sound dissonant, but even melodies based on the tritone do not necessariliy sound "oppressive" or "evil".  For example, the first two notes in the song Maria (from West Side Story) are a tritone. 

 

[graceandtruth]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached. Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do. What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.

Very well stated.  I have not used that verse, but it does apply well when terming music an emotional language.  That is a good term for music that summarizes what I have tried to convey elsewhere - thanks!

So what you are saying is that it is a purely cultural and subjective matter.  Everyone has different emotional responses to different stimuli.  I have to confess that I have the same problem with the 1 Corinthians 15 reference that I have with the Exodus 32 reference.  Any application of the texts to music is first a stretch and would establish a standard that has no biblical warrant but is purely a matter of experience, taste, and culture.  This does not give a solid footing for explaining to someone else the impropriety of their music choices.

I am again coming back to the fact that the Bible does not establish a particular genre as acceptable in the worship of God but it is a point of personal preference.

 

[rsc2a]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Absolutely nothing in the context of this passage gives any hint that Paul was referring to "worldly" music; in fact, the context would lend to quite a different conclusion than the one you are drawing.

[quote author=Tom Brennan]Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached.[/quote]

You don't think different people can "hear" different feelings from the exact same piece of music?

[quote author=Tom Brennan]Not all emotions are right for the child of God...[/quote]

No. A loud and emphatic NO.

[quote author=Tom Brennan]...and thus not all music is right for the child of God.[/quote]

There is an argument for this.

[quote author=Tom Brennan]One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it. [/quote]

And if they are opposite?

[quote author=Tom Brennan]I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do.[/quote]

Which is perfectly acceptable.

[quote author=Tom Brennan]What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.[/quote]

Then prove it.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

[list type=decimal]
[*]Music is very involved in the worship of God.
[*]Satan, a musical being himself, perverts anything that is to glorify God.
[*]Therefore, there must be a good and bad music.
[/list]

That is a non-sequitur.

Oh, I don't think so.  So much of what God has created for our good or for our ability to give Him glory, Satan has perverted.  Take pornography, adultery, destruction of marriage, perversion of worship (subtle changes in history resulting in idolatry even to human sacrifice), gluttony, etc.  Why should we not think that Satan would wish to pervert something that has such a large part in the worship of God?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I personally could care less what anyone listens to. I prefer somethings over others but realize that people are different.

Didn't start this to be judgmental or "better."  Rather, I believe it an important topic and understand that people approach this very differently.  Thank you for your participation!

I draw no line except what is in "good taste". Nothing vulgar or offensive and I do like to actually be able to understand what I am trying to listen to. This would leave out a lot of heavy metal music. If you like Heavy Metal, then listen to it. Just don't call it a "ministry".

I take this to mean that you determine what is right and wrong music solely by your opinion, which many people do.  This is a very dangerous position, for Jer 17:9 reads "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"  This position also mimics that of which Moses warned Israel before entering the promised land - Deu 12:8  Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes. 

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

6. Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
7. Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided

What kind of "style" causes carnality and sin? Style has nothing to do with it. That's like blaming a cool calm breeze for putting you to sleep instead of mowing the yard. I also expect my brother and sister to actually be "grown ups"...... and not to expect TOO MUCH out of someone else because they MIGHT get offended.

Your analogy did make me chuckle, thanks!  I am not a musician and have never made a scientific study of music.  However, I have recognized the effects of music, and so has just about everybody.  Try watching a movie or TV show with no background music.  Nowhere near as intriguing.  We all understand that styles of music have the ability to make us apprehensive, excited, happy, sad, etc.  This is nothing new.  Some music is also sensual in nature.  I dare say that on a romantic date you do not play William Tell's Overture (Though our wives may feel that we are trying to get through it as fast as possible to go watch more football!).  Typically, you can tell a lewd scene is about to take place on a TV show or movie when a certain style of music is played - being proactive, you turn the channel.  Maybe the style does not CAUSE carnality and sin, but it is usually present with carnality and sin.

As to the offense of others: 
I cannot promise everyone I will never offend them (I am debating on an open forum, after all), but I do not want to cast a stumbling block before my brother.  I am very much against attempting to look like the heathen in order to point people to Jesus.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

From Wikipedia:

The name diabolus in musica ("the Devil in music") has been applied to the interval [the tritone] from at least the early 18th century. Johann Joseph Fux cites the phrase in his seminal 1725 work Gradus ad Parnassum, Georg Philipp Telemann in 1733 describes, "mi against fa", which the ancients called "Satan in music", and Johann Mattheson in 1739 writes that the "older singers with solmization called this pleasant interval 'mi contra fa' or 'the devil in music'".[18] Although the latter two of these authors cite the association with the devil as from the past, there are no known citations of this term from the Middle Ages, as is commonly asserted.[19] However Denis Arnold, in the The New Oxford Companion to Music, suggests that the nickname was already applied early in the medieval music itself:

It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords and with the introduction of B flat as a diatonic note, at much the same time acquiring its nickname of "Diabolus in Musica" ("the devil in music").

Because of that original symbolic association with the devil and its avoidance, this interval came to be heard in Western cultural convention as suggesting an "evil" connotative meaning in music. Today the interval continues to suggest an "oppressive", "scary", or "evil" sound.

I'm hesitant to contradict anyone named Johann Joseph Fux, but every perfect authentic cadence includes a tritone (which resolves to the tonic, which is why it's a perfect authentic cadence).  Since the perfect authentic cadence is by far the most common chord progression in western music, I'd wager that the devil is in every piece of music you enjoy today, including most hymns (some use plagal cadences) and praise and worship music.

You can emphasize the tritone in order to make it sound dissonant, but even melodies based on the tritone do not necessariliy sound "oppressive" or "evil".  For example, the first two notes in the song Maria (from West Side Story) are a tritone.

I'm hesitant to contradict anyone named Johann Joseph Fux

Funniest thing all day!

Now I am going to need to get a better connection so I can find out what all that sounds like.  Not being a musician myself, I have no idea just by reading it.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached. Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do. What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.

Very well stated.  I have not used that verse, but it does apply well when terming music an emotional language.  That is a good term for music that summarizes what I have tried to convey elsewhere - thanks!

So what you are saying is that it is a purely cultural and subjective matter.  Everyone has different emotional responses to different stimuli.  I have to confess that I have the same problem with the 1 Corinthians 15 reference that I have with the Exodus 32 reference.  Any application of the texts to music is first a stretch and would establish a standard that has no biblical warrant but is purely a matter of experience, taste, and culture.  This does not give a solid footing for explaining to someone else the impropriety of their music choices.

I am again coming back to the fact that the Bible does not establish a particular genre as acceptable in the worship of God but it is a point of personal preference.

Yet, some stimuli will produce the same effects in just about everybody.  This is why certain music is played on TV or movies to produce an emotional response to coincide with the scene.

1 Cor 15:33 begins the portion which challenges the Christian to stop acting like the world (especially within the church) and start sharing the Gospel.  I believe it could apply to music very easily, along with backbiting, railing, etc.  I see a HUGE problem with attempting to deceive sinners into thinking Christianity is the same lifestyle as they are living, only with Jesus words.  Could not this passage be used in conjunction with a lesson on associations to help people understand that a style reflects relationship to a culture or lifestyle that is not in tune with holiness?

Cannot the the style, meter and wording of the Psalms tell us much about the music God desire from us?  Does anyone have an example of the Hebrew's musical style?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

So you believe God desires to be worshiped in carnality?  Read Amos and get back to me.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

So you believe God desires to be worshiped in carnality?  Read Amos and get back to me.

I want to know how you came to that conclusion from Ps 96:6

 

[christundivided]

A verse that is seldom used in reference to music, but one that has direct application is 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Music is an emotional language. It is how feelings sound. It speaks/conveys a message, emotionally, before a lyrical word is ever attached. Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

I full well realize that good people will draw the line differently than I do. What I emphatically reject is that there isn't supposed to be a line (ala instrumental music is a-moral). The latter position is scripturally untenable and practically disastrous.

Very well stated.  I have not used that verse, but it does apply well when terming music an emotional language.  That is a good term for music that summarizes what I have tried to convey elsewhere - thanks!

Languages are emotional. Some music doesn't invoke any emotional response! To say that music is somehow more emotion evoking than language itself .....is self serving. Evil communications exist apart from their use in music.

 

[christundivided]

I personally could care less what anyone listens to. I prefer somethings over others but realize that people are different.

Didn't start this to be judgmental or "better."  Rather, I believe it an important topic and understand that people approach this very differently.  Thank you for your participation!

Sure you did. Everyone does. Don't try to mask it by saying its a important topic.

I draw no line except what is in "good taste". Nothing vulgar or offensive and I do like to actually be able to understand what I am trying to listen to. This would leave out a lot of heavy metal music. If you like Heavy Metal, then listen to it. Just don't call it a "ministry".

I take this to mean that you determine what is right and wrong music solely by your opinion, which many people do.  This is a very dangerous position, for Jer 17:9 reads "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"  This position also mimics that of which Moses warned Israel before entering the promised land - Deu 12:8  Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes. 

Don't be silly. I base it on what I know from the Scriptures. I simply included by knowledge in my opinion. Don't make your opinion better than mine. Maybe you should read 1Cor 7:40

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

You confuse holiness with Sound. You shouldn't.

6. Music styles that directly reflect those that are used to promote carnality and sin should be avoided by the Christian, even in worship of God (See Ex 32)
7. Though some music styles may not offend me, they might my brother and should therefore be avoided

What kind of "style" causes carnality and sin? Style has nothing to do with it. That's like blaming a cool calm breeze for putting you to sleep instead of mowing the yard. I also expect my brother and sister to actually be "grown ups"...... and not to expect TOO MUCH out of someone else because they MIGHT get offended.

Your analogy did make me chuckle, thanks!  I am not a musician and have never made a scientific study of music.  However, I have recognized the effects of music, and so has just about everybody.  Try watching a movie or TV show with no background music.  Nowhere near as intriguing.  We all understand that styles of music have the ability to make us apprehensive, excited, happy, sad, etc.  This is nothing new.  Some music is also sensual in nature.  I dare say that on a romantic date you do not play William Tell's Overture (Though our wives may feel that we are trying to get through it as fast as possible to go watch more football!).  Typically, you can tell a lewd scene is about to take place on a TV show or movie when a certain style of music is played - being proactive, you turn the channel.  Maybe the style does not CAUSE carnality and sin, but it is usually present with carnality and sin.

So does most anything else. You've made music your target.

I can remember when IFBs wouldn't buy groceries from somewhere that sold alcohol because of the sin and carnality exposure. That soon changed when they couldn't find somewhere else to shop that didn't sales alcohol. What they considered sin was just fine now.

Also, I don't listen to porn music in the truck. Nor have I ever heard it in a church of any kind. You're drawing extremes. Make a Scriptural case against a SPECIFIC kind of music! You haven't yet. Be bold as a lion.

As to the offense of others: 
I cannot promise everyone I will never offend them (I am debating on an open forum, after all), but I do not want to cast a stumbling block before my brother.  I am very much against attempting to look like the heathen in order to point people to Jesus.

There you go. Have at. Tell us who is looking like a heathen in their attempts to point people to Jesus!

There are no Scriptures that define how music should sound in our worship of God. None. I gave up trying to stand against music I didn't like a long time ago. I couldn't honestly make a Scriptural case against it! So I changed. You should to. I suspect you're really the one the with a problem. I've been surprised at what type of music has actually inspired me to worship! To me it's all about the words and the sincerity to express the desire to please God! Nothing else!