LM, PKs, and martyr mentalities....

[Binaca Chugger]

I would like to respond to the OP. 

I am happy for you that you grew up in a balanced home and have lived a balanced life.  However, this is not the norm in the IFB NADD.  HAC taught us to put ministry first.  The wife should humbly live in the shadows and care for things at home so her man can care for God's people and the church.  She is typically trodden upon and manipulated into believing any desire she has is selfish and sinful.  She has little to no voice.  Her opinion is not valued.  The man is taught that to love God supremely, he must be about his Father's business of feeding His sheep.  Wife gets the leftovers and kids get little to nothing.

I grew up at FBC and graduated from HAC.  My wife is a HAC PK.  I have seen my share of neglected children.  I used to go over to a friends house in grade school whose dad was an upper echelon staff member.  His dad never came home until after he was in bed.  Saturday was for busses.  He saw his dad once each week on Sunday.  He has a very fractured relationship with his parents and a poor understanding of what God really desires of us.  His dad sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.  I have also seen my share of pastors who are not at home who they are in the pulpit.  Sad, but true.  This man believes he needs to be helpful to his church members, but his family just needs to tow the line and keep up appearance so he can continue his ministry.  "Stop your selfish bellyaching and realize that I am serving God!  There is a work to do and I must do it!" is his mantra to his family.  He too, has sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.

In short, HACkers were taught that the ministry is God, which is idolatry.  To me, the OP has a sharp bite of the same idolatry: "Stop your whining about needing love and attention and start supporting me in the ministry like you are supposed to."  As men, our primary purpose is God first, wife second, children third and others last.  When we put ministry over wife and children, we are violating God's intent for life, substituting our desire to please God over God's desire for us to give the care and nurture to our family we were designed to provide.

VERY rare is the pastor's wife who just gets bitter and quits, causing her husband to leave the ministry.  Her spirit is the husband's responsibility.  If she quits, it is because he did not first care for her.  He has violated the command of God to put family first and thereby is unqualified from helping others.  Interpreting Eph 5 to read: "Husbands love the church as Christ loved the church and sacrifice your home for it" is heresy. 

Adult children make their own decisions.  But, I have great respect for my former pastor friend who stepped down from the pastorate when his adult son made public his rebellion against God.  I don't respect the promotion of one's self as a guru to be consulted when the adult children have publicly walked away from Christianity.  These may be two extremes, but I know them both.

 

[Frag]

I would like to respond to the OP. 

I am happy for you that you grew up in a balanced home and have lived a balanced life.  However, this is not the norm in the IFB NADD.  HAC taught us to put ministry first.  The wife should humbly live in the shadows and care for things at home so her man can care for God's people and the church.  She is typically trodden upon and manipulated into believing any desire she has is selfish and sinful.  She has little to no voice.  Her opinion is not valued.  The man is taught that to love God supremely, he must be about his Father's business of feeding His sheep.  Wife gets the leftovers and kids get little to nothing.

I grew up at FBC and graduated from HAC.  My wife is a HAC PK.  I have seen my share of neglected children.  I used to go over to a friends house in grade school whose dad was an upper echelon staff member.  His dad never came home until after he was in bed.  Saturday was for busses.  He saw his dad once each week on Sunday.  He has a very fractured relationship with his parents and a poor understanding of what God really desires of us.  His dad sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.  I have also seen my share of pastors who are not at home who they are in the pulpit.  Sad, but true.  This man believes he needs to be helpful to his church members, but his family just needs to tow the line and keep up appearance so he can continue his ministry.  "Stop your selfish bellyaching and realize that I am serving God!  There is a work to do and I must do it!" is his mantra to his family.  He too, has sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.

In short, HACkers were taught that the ministry is God, which is idolatry.  To me, the OP has a sharp bite of the same idolatry: "Stop your whining about needing love and attention and start supporting me in the ministry like you are supposed to."  As men, our primary purpose is God first, wife second, children third and others last.  When we put ministry over wife and children, we are violating God's intent for life, substituting our desire to please God over God's desire for us to give the care and nurture to our family we were designed to provide.

VERY rare is the pastor's wife who just gets bitter and quits, causing her husband to leave the ministry.  Her spirit is the husband's responsibility.  If she quits, it is because he did not first care for her.  He has violated the command of God to put family first and thereby is unqualified from helping others.  Interpreting Eph 5 to read: "Husbands love the church as Christ loved the church and sacrifice your home for it" is heresy. 

Adult children make their own decisions.  But, I have great respect for my former pastor friend who stepped down from the pastorate when his adult son made public his rebellion against God.  I don't respect the promotion of one's self as a guru to be consulted when the adult children have publicly walked away from Christianity.  These may be two extremes, but I know them both.

Balance.  You mentioned it in your opening remark.

Appreciate and can relate to all of your comments.  Most of us have experienced or witnessed someone who neglected their family and justified it by claiming to be serving God.  Got it.  That is wrong and indefensible. 

But many have reacted by going to (as you mentioned) the other extreme.  To me, this is just as wrong.  To forsake serving the Lord and to use your family as an excuse is just as wrong.  I do not believe that you have to make a choice. 

Having said that, I do stand by my OP.  God is first.  To teach your children any other thing is unbiblical.  Ministry is not God, but part of God's will is for us to minister.  To separate God from His commands and teachings is impossible.  But the key is to remember that part of His command (as you pointed out) is to minister also to your family.

Good post, and I agree, too much of HAC teaching (while I was there) pushed ministry at the exclusion of family.  Just don't let that make you chose the other extreme. 

 

[Biker]

To the OP/Frag

So sorry that happened. Your Dads sin was not your fault. Normalizing it gives off an impression it is ok when it is blatant sin.

To feel Dad loves the church more than you is NOT normal. It is very EXTREME. He needed to step down, period. You needed him.

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me" 1 Cor 13:11
You were a child.Talked like one, thought like one & reasoned like one. Now you are a man. Something your Father needed to be back then.

"Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road , when you lie down and when you get up"
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Others addressed this already. The World adopted it's own church model. A pagan pyramid scheme. And... Members have no business "tithing" to a husband/father who is commanded to earn his own $$ for himself -And- the family he produced. He has his calling. The elite position at the tippy top of the pyramid it is NOT scriptural.
An Elder run church is! I call one person Pastor sometimes for simplicity sake, he still corrects me.


"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he is worse than an infidel" 1Tim

The Married Pastor is commanded to financially support HIS own family. Give himself up for his wife as Christ did the church. Churches floating these flakes is ludicrous.

"Husbands, give yourselves Up for your wife as Christ did for the church" Eph 5:25

Christ give himself up FOR THE CHURCH
A husband gives himself up FOR HIS WIFE.
Not the Church!!! that is the adversary prowling around like a roaring lion

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

We have just one Elder/Pastor whose interests are not divided (meaning he is unmarried). He's declined a salary.

Paul was single. Perfect to Pastor the Churches commanding us how to set up & govern churches. He was loving, godly & patient
1 Cor 7: 32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; 33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35 This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but [e]to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord.

My wife Mandy protested my nomination because she'd be a Pastors Wife. It's not an office so she came around. Her motives make no difference.
To give myself up for her simultaneously fulfills my calling. To not honor her original wishes would go against his command, -and- my calling.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ gave it all up for the church. A model for us married men to give it all up for our wife, as Christ did the Church. As 1 Cor 7 states, this is to our benefit and it is appropriate. It is our calling. What an awesome calling! God gave me a calling when I married, he commanded it. He said it was for my benefit, and it is appropriate. In order to secure undistraction to the Lord, I must be totally devoted to her in every way.. I give myself up for her, not vice-versa.

 

[Frag]

To the OP/Frag

So sorry that happened.

No sympathy needed.  I thank God for the life my dad lived and his devotion to God.  As to the rest of your post.........wow. 

Let's just say we live on two different planets when it comes to most of what you wrote.  Glad for your devotion to your wife, but again.............


.....balance. 

 

[Biker]

To the OP/Frag

So sorry that happened.

No sympathy needed.  I thank God for the life my dad lived and his devotion to God.  As to the rest of your post.........wow. 

Let's just say we live on two different planets when it comes to most of what you wrote.  Glad for your devotion to your wife, but again.............


.....balance.

Glad to hear your Dad is saved, that's wonderful. Good on you

Balance? scripture pleeze....

just one last time

Christ gave himself up for us (the church).
His calling.
Same breathe we are told to give ourselves up for (our wife)
Our calling.

yet...this NOT your calling?  Maybe i am off base

Beings we're light years apart,,, if you'd clarify, in my native language,,,,,,I don't speak Frag,,,,,YET

 

[BALAAM]

Frag you have been extremely courteous and respectful in your demeanor throughout this whole thread! Are you sure you are the real Frag?

 

[Frag]

Frag you have been extremely courteous and respectful in your demeanor throughout this whole thread! Are you sure you are the real Frag?

Let me check....





















....yep, at least his driver's license is in my wallet. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I would like to respond to the OP. 

I am happy for you that you grew up in a balanced home and have lived a balanced life.  However, this is not the norm in the IFB NADD.  HAC taught us to put ministry first.  The wife should humbly live in the shadows and care for things at home so her man can care for God's people and the church.  She is typically trodden upon and manipulated into believing any desire she has is selfish and sinful.  She has little to no voice.  Her opinion is not valued.  The man is taught that to love God supremely, he must be about his Father's business of feeding His sheep.  Wife gets the leftovers and kids get little to nothing.

I grew up at FBC and graduated from HAC.  My wife is a HAC PK.  I have seen my share of neglected children.  I used to go over to a friends house in grade school whose dad was an upper echelon staff member.  His dad never came home until after he was in bed.  Saturday was for busses.  He saw his dad once each week on Sunday.  He has a very fractured relationship with his parents and a poor understanding of what God really desires of us.  His dad sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.  I have also seen my share of pastors who are not at home who they are in the pulpit.  Sad, but true.  This man believes he needs to be helpful to his church members, but his family just needs to tow the line and keep up appearance so he can continue his ministry.  "Stop your selfish bellyaching and realize that I am serving God!  There is a work to do and I must do it!" is his mantra to his family.  He too, has sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.

In short, HACkers were taught that the ministry is God, which is idolatry.  To me, the OP has a sharp bite of the same idolatry: "Stop your whining about needing love and attention and start supporting me in the ministry like you are supposed to."  As men, our primary purpose is God first, wife second, children third and others last.  When we put ministry over wife and children, we are violating God's intent for life, substituting our desire to please God over God's desire for us to give the care and nurture to our family we were designed to provide.

VERY rare is the pastor's wife who just gets bitter and quits, causing her husband to leave the ministry.  Her spirit is the husband's responsibility.  If she quits, it is because he did not first care for her.  He has violated the command of God to put family first and thereby is unqualified from helping others.  Interpreting Eph 5 to read: "Husbands love the church as Christ loved the church and sacrifice your home for it" is heresy. 

Adult children make their own decisions.  But, I have great respect for my former pastor friend who stepped down from the pastorate when his adult son made public his rebellion against God.  I don't respect the promotion of one's self as a guru to be consulted when the adult children have publicly walked away from Christianity.  These may be two extremes, but I know them both.

Balance.  You mentioned it in your opening remark.

Appreciate and can relate to all of your comments.  Most of us have experienced or witnessed someone who neglected their family and justified it by claiming to be serving God.  Got it.  That is wrong and indefensible. 

But many have reacted by going to (as you mentioned) the other extreme.  To me, this is just as wrong.  To forsake serving the Lord and to use your family as an excuse is just as wrong.  I do not believe that you have to make a choice. 

Having said that, I do stand by my OP.  God is first.  To teach your children any other thing is unbiblical.  Ministry is not God, but part of God's will is for us to minister.  To separate God from His commands and teachings is impossible.  But the key is to remember that part of His command (as you pointed out) is to minister also to your family.

Good post, and I agree, too much of HAC teaching (while I was there) pushed ministry at the exclusion of family.  Just don't let that make you chose the other extreme.

Just what is the other extreme?  Family first and ministry if possible?  I think it depends on what you are talking about.  I remember Joe Boyd being upheld as a hero of the faith: "His wife wanted him to become a Christian.  But, when he got saved, he gave Christ his all and surrendered to the ministry.  His backslidden wife didn't want to go that far!  He left his wife to follow the call.  What a man of God!  Later, she finally surrendered too!"  Guess what?  Joe Boyd was wrong.  He even admitted as such.  On his death bed, his regret was not giving himself to his family.  I have spoken with other elderly, nationally recognized preachers.  Guess what a common theme is about things they would change?  Yep, time with family.

If God has given your wife or child a disease that prevents you from being in the ministry: no ministry - family first.  If you bought into the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry and now your home has fallen apart: no ministry - family first.  If you feel called to the mission field, or any field, but your family does not: no ministry - family first.  If your entire family is in agreement that God desires the family to be involved in a mission or ministry and while in that mission or ministry tragedy claims the life of one or more, you can rest assured that you gave yourself to family then ministry and this is in God's plan.

To help understand this, compare the testimony of Joe Boyd to Jim Elliot.  The Elliots were in love, but both felt a call to a different field.  They both wanted to put God's call first in their life.  Hence, they decided not to get married and allow each other to pursue God's call.  Years later, they found themselves heading to the same field and did get married.  They strove together as a unit in the work.  She would then give her husband for the cause.  This is vastly different from leaving your wife who isn't as spiritual as you to go fulfill God's call, or, like the HACker, bullying your wife to tow the line and allow you to do what you think God wants.

 

[Frag]

Just what is the other extreme?  Family first and ministry if possible?  I think it depends on what you are talking about.  I remember Joe Boyd being upheld as a hero of the faith: "His wife wanted him to become a Christian.  But, when he got saved, he gave Christ his all and surrendered to the ministry.  His backslidden wife didn't want to go that far!  He left his wife to follow the call.  What a man of God!  Later, she finally surrendered too!"  Guess what?  Joe Boyd was wrong.  He even admitted as such.  On his death bed, his regret was not giving himself to his family.  I have spoken with other elderly, nationally recognized preachers.  Guess what a common theme is about things they would change?  Yep, time with family.

If God has given your wife or child a disease that prevents you from being in the ministry: no ministry - family first.  If you bought into the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry and now your home has fallen apart: no ministry - family first.  If you feel called to the mission field, or any field, but your family does not: no ministry - family first.  If your entire family is in agreement that God desires the family to be involved in a mission or ministry and while in that mission or ministry tragedy claims the life of one or more, you can rest assured that you gave yourself to family then ministry and this is in God's plan.

To help understand this, compare the testimony of Joe Boyd to Jim Elliot.  The Elliots were in love, but both felt a call to a different field.  They both wanted to put God's call first in their life.  Hence, they decided not to get married and allow each other to pursue God's call.  Years later, they found themselves heading to the same field and did get married.  They strove together as a unit in the work.  She would then give her husband for the cause.  This is vastly different from leaving your wife who isn't as spiritual as you to go fulfill God's call, or, like the HACker, bullying your wife to tow the line and allow you to do what you think God wants.

Sorry.  I guess Jesus got it wrong.  When asked what the first and great commandment is, He (according to your viewpoint) should have said:  To love your family with all your heart....etc. 

You want to claim that if you believe "ministry is God" then you are committing idolatry.  Then you purpose a viewpoint that places your family as God.  Can't have it both ways. 

Your hatred for HAC is making you crazy.  Cut back on the Binaca, bro.  I NEVER heard that story of Joe Boyd until now.  That was never set up as an example of godliness before me during the 7 years I was there.  Nor was I ever taught " the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry"....  Wow.  Love to know why this is such a hot button with you.  Called to do something then married someone who wouldn't let you???  Hmmmmm.....

Do men surrender to the ministry and sometimes it takes time for the wife to also surrender?  Sure!  Should he be patient and love and pray for her till she gets there?  Sure.  Do kids sometimes struggle with their dad being in the ministry.  Of course.  Should he quit the ministry because they are struggling???  NO.  He should take the time to love them, invest in them, and include them in the ministry.

Every Christian's first and great command is to love the Lord God with all they are.  That is not just the command of a pastor, but of the pastor's wife and the PKs.  If all obey that command, doing HIS will will be a delight and not a point of contention.  Dieing to self and living for God is not an extreme "HACer lie", but an indisputable Bible principle.  I have never had to "bully" my wife into serving the Lord -- thankfully my wife has WANTED to serve the Lord -- get this --WANTED to be beside me and serve in the ministry!  That possibility seems to be beyond your grasp.

And guess what -- we were BOTH PKs!  How did we not end up bitter and hateful and selfish???? Maybe because we BOTH have kept our love for GOD supreme above EVERY OTHER LOVE IN OUR LIVES.  Just a thought. 

I stand by my OP.  God comes first.  IF that bothers you, you should sit down and figure out why. 

 

[Frag]

Glad to hear your Dad is saved, that's wonderful. Good on you

Balance? scripture pleeze....

just one last time

Christ gave himself up for us (the church).
His calling.
Same breathe we are told to give ourselves up for (our wife)
Our calling.

yet...this NOT your calling?  Maybe i am off base

Beings we're light years apart,,, if you'd clarify, in my native language,,,,,,I don't speak Frag,,,,,YET

Balance is achieved when you recognize that your entire life's priority system is not defined by just ONE verse in the Bible.

Balance is considering ALL that God has commanded, and scheduling your life to include time to obey ALL He has commanded.

Balance does not hide behind obeying God in one area of your life, then using it as an excuse for disobedience in every other area of your life.

Being a good pastor does not give you an excuse for being a poor husband.  NEITHER DOES being a good husband give you an excuse for being a poor pastor, church member, neighbor, brother, son, father, witness, friend, employee, or child of God.  There are Biblical responsibilities for each of these areas, not just the one.  Balance is achieved by learning to be GOOD in every area, instead of GREAT in one at the expense of the others. 

God comes first!  Our love for Him is to be supreme above every other love in our life.  This does not diminish the other loves of our life, it empowers and enhances those loves.

 

[Frag]

What about a pastor who loses his family ... is he out of balance?

If a pastor has to quit the ministry to save his marriage, then that is what he should do.

If that choice was created by his unwise neglect of his wife and family, then shame on him.

If that choice was created by a wife who selfishly refuses to support her husband in what God has called him to do, then shame on her. 

The longer I am in the ministry, the more genuine appreciation I have for PASTOR'S WIVES who have, over the long haul, supported and encouraged their husbands to serve the Lord and fulfill their calling.  Faithful pastor's wives are MORE deserving of accolades and rewards (both here and in eternity) than their husbands!!!  It is certainly true of my wife! 

While I agree with what you wrote I have a sneaky suspicion that you would regularly side with the pastor by finding some "selfishness" in his wife. Especially if his "neglect" was in the form of church work.

Nope.  Known my share of idiot pastors whose neglect of their wife and family eventually took them out of the ministry.  Sad, but they have no one to blame but themselves.

I also know a few good men whose wives flat out did not want to sacrifice to be in the ministry.  They were selfish and self serving, and their husbands now are doing something else.  Shame on such a wife.

Anyone who serves in the ministry does so as long as his wife wants to be in the ministry.  If she checks out, he might as well also.  Again, that is why I applaud those amazing pastor's wives who over a life time sacrificially serve beside their husbands.  My mother was one -- 40 years serving with my father.  My wife is one, 27 years now serving with me. Two of my three daughters are pastor's wives -- faithfully serving and sacrificing -- and loving it! 

I often say, "Dust for fingerprints anything that I have ever done for the Lord that succeeded, and you will find my wife's fingerprints all over it!"  We serve as a team -- it is a wonderful and joyous privilege to have a wife that truly loves the Lord, truly loves you, and truly loves serving the Lord together with you!  It has been a great adventure. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Frag]Sorry.  I guess Jesus got it wrong.  When asked what the first and great commandment is, He (according to your viewpoint) should have said:  To love your family with all your heart....etc.  [/quote]

You make it sound like loving God and loving others (particularly your family) aren't co-dependent on each other...

One cannot do one without the other.

[quote author=Frag]You want to claim that if you believe "ministry is God" then you are committing idolatry.  Then you purpose a viewpoint that places your family as God.  Can't have it both ways. [/quote]

God ≠ "ministry"

[quote author=Frag]Nor was I ever taught " the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry"....[/quote]

I have no idea if this is a HAC thing or not (I would assume yes), but this is definitely taught in a lot of churches. Sure, they won't actually come out and say that, but there is more than one way to teach a lesson.

[quote author=Frag]Do men surrender to the ministry and sometimes it takes time for the wife to also surrender?  Sure!  Should he be patient and love and pray for her till she gets there?  Sure.  Do kids sometimes struggle with their dad being in the ministry.  Of course.  Should he quit the ministry because they are struggling???  NO.  He should take the time to love them, invest in them, and include them in the ministry.

Every Christian's first and great command is to love the Lord God with all they are.  That is not just the command of a pastor, but of the pastor's wife and the PKs.  If all obey that command, doing HIS will will be a delight and not a point of contention.  Dieing to self and living for God is not an extreme "HACer lie", but an indisputable Bible principle.  I have never had to "bully" my wife into serving the Lord -- thankfully my wife has WANTED to serve the Lord -- get this --WANTED to be beside me and serve in the ministry!  That possibility seems to be beyond your grasp.[/quote]

Do you realize there are hundreds of other ways to "minister" that do not involve pastoring a church?

[quote author=Frag]And guess what -- we were BOTH PKs!  How did we not end up bitter and hateful and selfish???? Maybe because we BOTH have kept our love for GOD supreme above EVERY OTHER LOVE IN OUR LIVES.  Just a thought.  [/quote]

I'm trying to decide if I should pat you on the back for all the ways you are obviously better than everyone else or point out that your experience isn't universal.

 

[subllibrm]

Frag,

what I find interesting is your OP starts out as a line in the sand for those who feel they have been harmed by an out of balance ministry. Why was it necessary to make it a fight right from the get go? Name calling and finger waving right out of the gate. We can all find anecdotes for either position.  Yet you started the fire by making it seem as if the bulk of the issue is selfish family members. No way that you can claim a lack of ax grinding motivation.

I know two men who "gave' their lives to camp ministry at the expense of their sons. In both cases Dad couldn't figure out how to schedule time for attending ball games or school functions. The "ministry" always came first. In the one case the sons refer to the camp as their father's "god". That may sound terrible to you but his wife (who stuck by him through it all) calls it his mistress. No HAC or FBCH connections. Not even close to your circle so my post has no anti Hyles agenda. God does call people to ministry but he does not ask them to sacrifice their families in the process. I am just pointing out that an attitude that ministry comes ahead of family will bear bitter fruit. While I always counsel bitter people to let go of the bitterness, it doesn't mean that they are the sole source of the bitter root. Or to put it another way, just because the wife or child is dealing with a bitterness issue it doesn't mean that there wasn't neglect.

A recent example of the other way to handle things: our pastor found himself in a conflict between the monthly deacon meeting and a school function for his son. He chose to reschedule the meeting so that he could be there for his boy. That was the correct choice for him to make IMO. Now had there been a tragic death or injury in the church family, I can see how the priority would reshuffle. What I have seen too much of is things that aren't emergencies being elevated to that level.

An old example of the wrong expectational thinking that is beat into preacher boys. A former pastor was out of town for his father's funeral two states away. While he was gone a young family welcomed their first child into the world. By the time he got home they the mother and baby had been released from the hospital. Pastor was embarrassed that he had missed making the call to see them in the hospital. He apologized repeatedly for "not being there" for them. The young family was surprised that he had any feeling of failure. That kind of knee jerk reaction is not biblical it is culturally conditioned by setting expectations too high. Those expectations are set not only by the people in the pews but by the men themselves (see your own examples) and the professors in the schools where the preacher boys get their training.

BTW them man in your story about Easter dinner; is he a member of your church? A believer?

 

[Frag]

Frag,

what I find interesting is your OP starts out as a line in the sand for those who feel they have been harmed by an out of balance ministry. Why was it necessary to make it a fight right from the get go? Name calling and finger waving right out of the gate. We can all find anecdotes for either position.  Yet you started the fire by making it seem as if the bulk of the issue is selfish family members. No way that you can claim a lack of ax grinding motivation.

I know two men who "gave' their lives to camp ministry at the expense of their sons. In both cases Dad couldn't figure out how to schedule time for attending ball games or school functions. The "ministry" always came first. In the one case the sons refer to the camp as their father's "god". That may sound terrible to you but his wife (who stuck by him through it all) calls it his mistress. No HAC or FBCH connections. Not even close to your circle so my post has no anti Hyles agenda. God does call people to ministry but he does not ask them to sacrifice their families in the process. I am just pointing out that an attitude that ministry comes ahead of family will bear bitter fruit. While I always counsel bitter people to let go of the bitterness, it doesn't mean that they are the sole source of the bitter root. Or to put it another way, just because the wife or child is dealing with a bitterness issue it doesn't mean that there wasn't neglect.

A recent example of the other way to handle things: our pastor found himself in a conflict between the monthly deacon meeting and a school function for his son. He chose to reschedule the meeting so that he could be there for his boy. That was the correct choice for him to make IMO. Now had there been a tragic death or injury in the church family, I can see how the priority would reshuffle. What I have seen too much of is things that aren't emergencies being elevated to that level.

An old example of the wrong expectational thinking that is beat into preacher boys. A former pastor was out of town for his father's funeral two states away. While he was gone a young family welcomed their first child into the world. By the time he got home they the mother and baby had been released from the hospital. Pastor was embarrassed that he had missed making the call to see them in the hospital. He apologized repeatedly for "not being there" for them. The young family was surprised that he had any feeling of failure. That kind of knee jerk reaction is not biblical it is culturally conditioned by setting expectations too high. Those expectations are set not only by the people in the pews but by the men themselves (see your own examples) and the professors in the schools where the preacher boys get their training.

BTW them man in your story about Easter dinner; is he a member of your church? A believer?

My OP was a simple observation of two daughters with two drastically different views of their PK experience and a testimony of mine.  Loose your bias about everything I post and go back and reread the OP.  Or don't.  I hardly post to gain your approval.

As for your examples, couldn't agree more with you in all three examples:  camp director, bad; pastor, good; pastor's apology, silly.  See, we agree.

The man in the Easter story is a recent convert.  Got to lead him and his wife to the Lord several months ago, and they are busy trying to reach their family for Christ.  They have not joined our church yet. 

 

[Frag]

blah, blah, blah...

Frag rule #7:  Don't waste time arguing with morons. 

 

[Frag]

blah, blah, blah...

Frag rule #7:  Don't waste time arguing with morons.

Yep.  Drivers license was right.  I am me. 

 

[subllibrm]

My OP was a simple observation of two daughters with two drastically different views of their PK experience and a testimony of mine.  Lose your bias about everything I post and go back and reread the OP.  Or don't.  I hardly post to gain your approval.

Two people can grow up in the same home and not react the same way. If one reacts bitterly and one reacts otherwise does not necessarily mean that there was balance. It could mean that the two coped with an out of balance home experience differently. It in no way proves your point that the bitter one is selfish and experienced no harm or hurt nor that the other one is godly always "taking on for the team". I will grant that such could be true but in no way makes your brush any less broad.

And FWIW the two camp guys both have bitter kids and non-bitter kids so that blows up your theory as well.

BTW you telling me to leave my bias behind is kind of funny!

 

[Mathew Ward]

My OP was a simple observation of two daughters with two drastically different views of their PK experience and a testimony of mine.

Had there only been 2 children in the Hyles home then maybe your slant would be better accepted.  With your X'er tendencies you would have to admit your own bias for Jack Hyles.

However your bias towards Linda, is that she bitter is because she has not grown up yet spiritually or mentally, I think shows much of your slant.

But part of me thinks that if the HAC crowd can castigate JS and exonerate JH than all is good for that segment of IFB'dom.

I think the fruit of JS had its roots in JH.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Just what is the other extreme?  Family first and ministry if possible?  I think it depends on what you are talking about.  I remember Joe Boyd being upheld as a hero of the faith: "His wife wanted him to become a Christian.  But, when he got saved, he gave Christ his all and surrendered to the ministry.  His backslidden wife didn't want to go that far!  He left his wife to follow the call.  What a man of God!  Later, she finally surrendered too!"  Guess what?  Joe Boyd was wrong.  He even admitted as such.  On his death bed, his regret was not giving himself to his family.  I have spoken with other elderly, nationally recognized preachers.  Guess what a common theme is about things they would change?  Yep, time with family.

If God has given your wife or child a disease that prevents you from being in the ministry: no ministry - family first.  If you bought into the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry and now your home has fallen apart: no ministry - family first.  If you feel called to the mission field, or any field, but your family does not: no ministry - family first.  If your entire family is in agreement that God desires the family to be involved in a mission or ministry and while in that mission or ministry tragedy claims the life of one or more, you can rest assured that you gave yourself to family then ministry and this is in God's plan.

To help understand this, compare the testimony of Joe Boyd to Jim Elliot.  The Elliots were in love, but both felt a call to a different field.  They both wanted to put God's call first in their life.  Hence, they decided not to get married and allow each other to pursue God's call.  Years later, they found themselves heading to the same field and did get married.  They strove together as a unit in the work.  She would then give her husband for the cause.  This is vastly different from leaving your wife who isn't as spiritual as you to go fulfill God's call, or, like the HACker, bullying your wife to tow the line and allow you to do what you think God wants.

Sorry.  I guess Jesus got it wrong.  When asked what the first and great commandment is, He (according to your viewpoint) should have said:  To love your family with all your heart....etc.

You want to claim that if you believe "ministry is God" then you are committing idolatry.  Then you purpose a viewpoint that places your family as God.  Can't have it both ways. 

Seriously?  I am assuming you have Christ first.  The divine order is: Christ, Wife, Children, Others.  I am stating that your first responsibility (after God) is to your own.  You know, like He that careth not for his own is worse......?

Your hatred for HAC is making you crazy.  Cut back on the Binaca, bro.

Not hatred.  Warning.  I believe some of the philosophy there was flat out wrong.  Still, Bro. Hyles was my friend and I have family and friends who still live in the area and attend and work there.

I NEVER heard that story of Joe Boyd until now.  That was never set up as an example of godliness before me during the 7 years I was there.

3 possibilities:  1) you didn't listen.  2) You were there in a different era when things weren't quite so wacky.  3) It was still somewhat fresh and Joe Boyd chose not to tell it.

Nor was I ever taught " the HAC lie about destroying your family for sake of the ministry"....  Wow.  Love to know why this is such a hot button with you.  Called to do something then married someone who wouldn't let you???  Hmmmmm.....

Okay, okay.  I got a little carried away with that one.  You agreed earlier that HAC taught us an imbalance that sacrifices family on the altar of ministry.

Hot button?  I am responding to your OP that claims the family needs to quit whining and give up their husband/father to the church.  I have seen the result of this mentality and it is brutal.  When you have a close friend killed by alcohol, alcohol becomes a hot button.  Neglect is a real thing and has real consequences which is why extreme cases are considered abuse by the state.  Sacrificing one's family on the altar of ministry has very long lasting effects.  I have seen it affect my friends from HB.  I have seen HAC classmates whose homes have fallen apart because of this misunderstanding.  Sometimes, you really want to cry out against something that has hurt so many of your friends and even family members.

Remember the story about the snake hunter who traveled the country side killing cobras for the neighboring village only to return home and find his wife and kids dead, their bodies covered with cobras?  I believe it is possible that Satan has been using an overdedication to the ministry and desire for everyone to see our zeal for the Lord, to destroy our homes and ruin the opportunity for ministry - if only in future generations.

Do men surrender to the ministry and sometimes it takes time for the wife to also surrender?  Sure!  Should he be patient and love and pray for her till she gets there?  Sure.  Do kids sometimes struggle with their dad being in the ministry.  Of course.  Should he quit the ministry because they are struggling???  NO.  He should take the time to love them, invest in them, and include them in the ministry.

Every Christian's first and great command is to love the Lord God with all they are.  That is not just the command of a pastor, but of the pastor's wife and the PKs.  If all obey that command, doing HIS will will be a delight and not a point of contention.  Dieing to self and living for God is not an extreme "HACer lie", but an indisputable Bible principle.

Agreed.  See my illustration of Joe Boyd vs. Jim Elliot.  The Elliots BOTH put God first.  When tragedy struck, she stayed in the jungles and was able to see God working all things, even the death of her husband, for His good. 

I have never had to "bully" my wife into serving the Lord -- thankfully my wife has WANTED to serve the Lord -- get this --WANTED to be beside me and serve in the ministry!  That possibility seems to be beyond your grasp.

And guess what -- we were BOTH PKs!  How did we not end up bitter and hateful and selfish???? Maybe because we BOTH have kept our love for GOD supreme above EVERY OTHER LOVE IN OUR LIVES.  Just a thought. 

GOOD!!  Praise the Lord!  In my first response, I was happy for you that you and your wife grew up in a home that did not go through these particular problems and you did not have this in your home either.  However, to assume that your experience is universal is wrong.  There are homes that are experiencing difficulty because one has desired to prove their zeal for the Lord over proving their love for their spouse.  Putting God first DOES NOT mean putting others over your wife and kids.  As a pastor, your family will sometimes say goodbye to you during a family tradition so that you can counsel the grieving.  As a pastor, your family should believe individually that you care for them and not just your church members.

I stand by my OP.  God comes first.  IF that bothers you, you should sit down and figure out why.

Of course!  God first.  We agree. 

I have a nervousness about people who, with a broad brush, proclaim that all PK's and PW's need to just grow up and let their dad/husband be gone.

 

[Torrent v.2]

[quote author=Frag]I agree, except for one point.  The Greatest Commandment does not include loving "one's neighbor as oneself".  The SECOND Greatest commandment includes that.  The FIRST greatest commandment is for God and God alone.

These two statements are interdependent. One cannot love God if one hates their neighbor, and one cannot love their neighbor without loving God (even if one is unaware that they, in fact, do love God...albeit imperfectly).

And, regarding the first post, the church is not God. The problem often isn't that the pastor elevates God too much. It's that the pastor elevates the church too much, often at the expense of his family. If you suck at pastoring your own family, perhaps you should focus your attention there before you attempt to pastor a wider audience.
[/quote]

Excellent point.  When I was a young man in ministry, I had a modus operandi every time I would talk to an older pastor.  I would ask them, "If you had to do it over again, what would you do differently?" 

Without fail, every single one of them said the same thing, just in different words."I would spend more time with my family."