Let's Return to the Old Paths

[RAIDER]

Sorry, you've hit a bit of hot button for me; I am VERY tired of reading on social media "We had X people out soulwinning and saw Y saved" -- no matter how it's clothed, it just looks like bragging ("my church is better than your church, as we had more people going out" -- or "my leadership is clearly better, as we had more saved").  Such posts reveal a braggadocios spirit.  I suspect that, in reality, they probably convinced "Y" people to say a prayer, but their total lack of interest in spiritual things is a good indication of the lack of new birth.  No one in the Bible had a "salvation" experience with no change.  (Some, of course, did "go back" and did not continue, but all at least made a start).

I think you are getting dangerously close to being judgmental of people's motives.  Because some preacher(s) in your past were prideful in this area, you are viewing every preacher through those glasses.  There are good men who may post, 'Praise the Lord we had 15 out on soulwinning this week and we saw 4 people make a salvation profession!"  That preacher may be extremely humble and may truly be praising God.  You then post that the 4 people who made a salvation profession were convinced or tricked into saying a prayer.  Again, you have some issues with the behavior of some preachers in your past and you are now painting and judging with a broad brush. 

 

[Walt]

Sorry, you've hit a bit of hot button for me; I am VERY tired of reading on social media "We had X people out soulwinning and saw Y saved" -- no matter how it's clothed, it just looks like bragging ("my church is better than your church, as we had more people going out" -- or "my leadership is clearly better, as we had more saved").  Such posts reveal a braggadocios spirit.  I suspect that, in reality, they probably convinced "Y" people to say a prayer, but their total lack of interest in spiritual things is a good indication of the lack of new birth.  No one in the Bible had a "salvation" experience with no change.  (Some, of course, did "go back" and did not continue, but all at least made a start).

I think you are getting dangerously close to being judgmental of people's motives.  Because some preacher(s) in your past were prideful in this area, you are viewing every preacher through those glasses.  There are good men who may post, 'Praise the Lord we had 15 out on soulwinning this week and we saw 4 people make a salvation profession!"  That preacher may be extremely humble and may truly be praising God.  You then post that the 4 people who made a salvation profession were convinced or tricked into saying a prayer.  Again, you have some issues with the behavior of some preachers in your past and you are now painting and judging with a broad brush.

Hmmm... a fair assessment; it may be so (I did say it was a hot button).

I'm not saying that the men are necessarily prideful; they may not even be aware of how they are sounding.

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I do know that much of what we were taught about soul-winning (from multiple churches) was really a course in how to be a good salesman.  We went out selling heaven, trying to get people to say a prayer so we could say that we had one "saved".  Such techniques are humanistic, and can get a lot of people to say a prayer, but it is a prayer in vain, because there was no conversion.  It results of 100s of "salvations" with very few additions to church.

Let me also say that I have heard of churches and people on here who do it right; I've participated in good soul-winning programs that are not high-pressure sales jobs.

 

[RAIDER]

Sorry, you've hit a bit of hot button for me; I am VERY tired of reading on social media "We had X people out soulwinning and saw Y saved" -- no matter how it's clothed, it just looks like bragging ("my church is better than your church, as we had more people going out" -- or "my leadership is clearly better, as we had more saved").  Such posts reveal a braggadocios spirit.  I suspect that, in reality, they probably convinced "Y" people to say a prayer, but their total lack of interest in spiritual things is a good indication of the lack of new birth.  No one in the Bible had a "salvation" experience with no change.  (Some, of course, did "go back" and did not continue, but all at least made a start).

I think you are getting dangerously close to being judgmental of people's motives.  Because some preacher(s) in your past were prideful in this area, you are viewing every preacher through those glasses.  There are good men who may post, 'Praise the Lord we had 15 out on soulwinning this week and we saw 4 people make a salvation profession!"  That preacher may be extremely humble and may truly be praising God.  You then post that the 4 people who made a salvation profession were convinced or tricked into saying a prayer.  Again, you have some issues with the behavior of some preachers in your past and you are now painting and judging with a broad brush.

Hmmm... a fair assessment; it may be so (I did say it was a hot button).

I'm not saying that the men are necessarily prideful; they may not even be aware of how they are sounding.

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I do know that much of what we were taught about soul-winning (from multiple churches) was really a course in how to be a good salesman.  We went out selling heaven, trying to get people to say a prayer so we could say that we had one "saved".  Such techniques are humanistic, and can get a lot of people to say a prayer, but it is a prayer in vain, because there was no conversion.  It results of 100s of "salvations" with very few additions to church.

Let me also say that I have heard of churches and people on here who do it right; I've participated in good soul-winning programs that are not high-pressure sales jobs.

Well put.

 

[RAIDER]

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I agree that reporting numbers may be rooted in pride, or it may be clothed in humility.  Where do you get the idea that reporting numbers is not Biblical?

 

[Jim Jones]

The greatest example of reporting numbers? In my opinion it would be the widows mite.

If not for the Savior pointing it out? We would have never known of her great example.

The praise of men is temporary.

The praise of real sacrifice is forever etched in scripture.

 

[sword]

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I agree that reporting numbers may be rooted in pride, or it may be clothed in humility.  Where do you get the idea that reporting numbers is not Biblical?

I agree any reporting must be done in humility and for the purpose to encourage others.

I disagree with the statement that reporting numbers is not biblical. We see example after example, in the Bible, of reporting numbers for the purpose of informing us.

Examples
Matthew 14:13-21
13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.
14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matt 15:10
[10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they.

Luke 10:1
After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

Mark 8:1-2
In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:

Mark 8:8-9
8 So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.

John 6:10
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Acts 4:1-4
1And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Job 1:3-4
3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

1 Samuel 13:5
And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which is on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[bgwilkinson]

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I agree that reporting numbers may be rooted in pride, or it may be clothed in humility.  Where do you get the idea that reporting numbers is not Biblical?

I agree any reporting must be done in humility and for the purpose to encourage others.

I disagree with the statement that reporting numbers is not biblical. We see example after example, in the Bible, of reporting numbers for the purpose of informing us.

Examples
Matthew 14:13-21
13 When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities.
14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matt 15:10
[10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they.

Luke 10:1
After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

Mark 8:1-2
In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,
2 I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:

Mark 8:8-9
8 So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.
9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.

John 6:10
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Acts 4:1-4
1And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.3And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Job 1:3-4
3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

1 Samuel 13:5
And the Philistines gathered themselves together to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and people as the sand which is on the sea shore in multitude: and they came up, and pitched in Michmash, eastward from Bethaven.

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Counting is just fine when God does it but not so much when man does it out of pride.

1Ch 21:1  And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 
1Ch 21:2  And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. 

Pride seems to be one of the greatest sins of IFBs. After all Bro. Hyles always told us FBCH was the greatest since the church at Jerusalem.

 

[RAIDER]

Pride seems to be one of the greatest sins of IFBs. After all Bro. Hyles always told us FBCH was the greatest since the church at Jerusalem.

Can you dispute that?

 

[Walt]

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I agree that reporting numbers may be rooted in pride, or it may be clothed in humility.  Where do you get the idea that reporting numbers is not Biblical?

The only time counting people didn't get a person in trouble was when God explicitly told someone to number the people.  David got into trouble over it.

There are numbers that God tells us; that Jesus fed 5000 people, and 3000 people; that there were 120 people praying on the day of Pentecost, and several others.

But there is no precedent of Paul reporting number of conversions, or Barnabas, or Peter, or James, or anything like that.

What we do read is Paul saying that one plants, another waters, and yet another sees the increase.

Churches that give out awards to people for "the most souls won" are greatly in error;  real salvation needs three things: a witness to the truth (our job), conviction of sin (the Holy Spirit's job), and the decision of the sinner to trust Christ (the sinner's job).  We are wrong when we try to take over the Holy Spirit's job.  Instead of getting the sinner to repeat words after us, we would be better served to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

 

[TidesofTruth]

At the same time, the drive to report numbers isn't Biblical, and may be rooted in pride.

I agree that reporting numbers may be rooted in pride, or it may be clothed in humility.  Where do you get the idea that reporting numbers is not Biblical?

But there is no precedent of Paul reporting number of conversions, or Barnabas, or Peter, or James, or anything like that.

Not challenging the essence of your post but did you purposely leave out Luke?  Just sayin'.

 

[RAIDER]

The only time counting people didn't get a person in trouble was when God explicitly told someone to number the people.  David got into trouble over it.

I think you would have trouble supporting that from the Scripture.

 

[TidesofTruth]

I do not like to seem adversarial to any translation made by sincere genuine Bible Scholars. I do not like to criticize the New World Translation even though I believe it has deliberately inserted erroneous readings meant to support Jehovah's Witnesses' false doctrine. I.e. the diminution and denial of Christ's deity.

I had a middle age couple that were Jehova's Witnesses and I used the KJV against the New World Translation as an apologetic that shook their faith in the JW cult and within weeks they received Jesus Christ as their Saviour through the real gospel that is found in the KJV.  God was drawing them and their enslavement to the false doctrine of modalism needed to be loosed.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

As to numbers.
In my younger days when 'the largest church in any given state was an IFB church' we were told at every conference that numbers were A sign of God's blessing on a man and a ministry. Today, when the 'evangelicals' have the numbers, that no longer holds true.

Just say'in...

 

[bgwilkinson]

As to numbers.
In my younger days when 'the largest church in any given state was an IFB church' we were told at every conference that numbers were A sign of God's blessing on a man and a ministry. Today, when the 'evangelicals' have the numbers, that no longer holds true.

Just say'in...

That only applies when you are the one with the numbers.
When it's some other religion it doesn't indicate God's blessings.

 

[Walt]

As to numbers.
In my younger days when 'the largest church in any given state was an IFB church' we were told at every conference that numbers were A sign of God's blessing on a man and a ministry. Today, when the 'evangelicals' have the numbers, that no longer holds true.

Just say'in...

That only applies when you are the one with the numbers.
When it's some other religion it doesn't indicate God's blessings.

Right - it indicates "compromise"