Leaving a church quietly???

[RAIDER]

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

This is my opinion, but I think it is the height of rudeness to completely ignore a pastor who has ministered to you, both corporately and personally, for a number of years. Not only is it rude, but it is painful to those you leave behind, not just the pastor, but his wife, his children, and other people in the church who loved them very much.

I believe that in most circumstances a church member owes the pastor an explanation of why he is leaving.  It may be painful for the pastor to hear.  It may be difficult for the church member to express.  Unfortunately, many people that leave a church don't have enough decency to tell the pastor, yet they will tell every friend that they have in the church.

On the other hand, some pastors may have the Schaap mentality.  In this case I can see why that church member would not go to the pastor.

 

[Norefund]

Somewhat off topic, but does anyone remember when Jack Hyles used to tell us from the pulpit that anytime a man would leave the church, JH would buy him a suit of clothes? It was expressed in terms of clothing those that despise you, or something like that.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

The thing about Tom's post that got me is that he KNEW the guy was continuing to tithe. The last couple of churches I've attended, the pastors made it clear that they don't want to have anything to do with the money and don't want information as to who gives and who doesn't. Maybe Tom knows from second-hand info but it just seems odd that it was important enough to him to mention it in that post.

He mails it in. We're a one man shop. I open the mail. I mentioned it b/c I find it very odd in that situation. I do not know who gives what in relation to giving via the offering plate or online.

Fair enough. I appreciate the clarification.

 

[Exell]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.
Also, I see no reason why you shouldn't call your pastor on it. After prayer and careful consideration, go and talk with him, it will probably be a tough conversation but will probably be the best thing to happen to both of you. I am sure it would challenge him to preach fresher sermons while at the same time remind him that he is accountable to the Church.

I understand what you are saying, to an extent.  I guess my question to you would be, what is the purpose of a believer to attend church?  Because, going through this I have given it much thought.  And I am convinced that a major reason we go to church is to be fed. 

Pastors are paid to be in the Word and deliver something fresh to the ppl.  If not WHY have a Pastor, what is his purpose in the church?

I'm wondering if you would be brutally honest with all of us on this forum and give your age? 

I have never met a Pastor that would accept that kind of accountability.

The major reason I believe someone attends church is to fulfill their role within the body, that there be no schism in the body. You and your pastor have a role within the body of Christ, the church. The church, as His body is how He is known and how he functions. Members are to humbly and cohesively come together and fulfill their role within the body so that it can carry out coordinated action for the gospel and glory of God.

The bible does teach mutual edification but it also tells us that greater is he that serveth than he that sitteth at meat.

I agree that pastors should feed their people. I also disagree with the popular model within our circles that places filling a pulpit 3-4 times a week on the shoulders of one individual. Some men can carry that load...most can't...especially if they are bi-vocational.

I also, personally believe that in this particular situation you are not being fair to the man. He deserves to know where he stands. Love in any relationship confronts the issue and addresses the situation. "Love rejoiceth in the truth". To not confront him and address the problem, providing the accountability that we all need and in the absence of which we all drift, is to act out of self preservation/comfort and not love. I refuse to believe that all pastors are arrogant egotist that refuse all accountability and admonition. If you feel it is a real problem you should lovingly and humbly talk to him about, offering to help in any way. It will be awkward and uncomfortable but that is what love does.

 

[Norefund]

I have co-workers, managers, that are quite offended when an employee chooses to leave the company to go work somewhere else. They take it pretty personal. This thread has enlightened me about the hurt that happens (from a pastor's point of view) when a member leaves a church.  I have never really thought about it, but I guess it is next to impossible to not feel personally rejected, regardless of the reason (other than physical - relocation or health). It also occurs to me that FBC was the only church I have ever left without the reason being relocation.

 

[sword]

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

This is my opinion, but I think it is the height of rudeness to completely ignore a pastor who has ministered to you, both corporately and personally, for a number of years. Not only is it rude, but it is painful to those you leave behind, not just the pastor, but his wife, his children, and other people in the church who loved them very much.

I agree unless those members have experessed over & over their concerns to the pastor & were ignored. If the pastor clearly knows they have concerns & has refused to address them then he already knows why they left. After someone makes up their mind to leave its a little late for the pastor to become concerned as to why. They have likely spent months making the final decesion to go. What else is there to talk about at that point.

I left a thriving church once over doctrinal issues & did not return for a visit or even talk to the pastor ever again. He changed completely what he believed & he already knew most members did not agree. Many in the church just quietly left & never looked back. The church folded due to lack of membership years later. He did not start that church nor did he put the effort into building that church but he did destroy it.

In hindsight he should have been thrown out on the street and the lifelong members should have voted in another pastor. Because many had been taught to leave quietly the church they built in time dropped most of their missionaries, changed worship style, changed song books, fired long time staff and then closed. Property sold to some charismatic outfit & all is well I guess.

 

[16KJV11]

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

This is my opinion, but I think it is the height of rudeness to completely ignore a pastor who has ministered to you, both corporately and personally, for a number of years. Not only is it rude, but it is painful to those you leave behind, not just the pastor, but his wife, his children, and other people in the church who loved them very much.

I agree unless those members have experessed over & over their concerns to the pastor & were ignored. If the pastor clearly knows they have concerns & has refused to address them then he already knows why they left. After someone makes up their mind to leave its a little late for the pastor to become concerned as to why. They have likely spent months making the final decesion to go. What else is there to talk about at that point.

I left a thriving church once over doctrinal issues & did not return for a visit or even talk to the pastor ever again. He changed completely what he believed & he already knew most members did not agree. Many in the church just quietly left & never looked back. The church folded due to lack of membership years later. He did not start that church nor did he put the effort into building that church but he did destroy it.

In hindsight he should have been thrown out on the street and the lifelong members should have voted in another pastor. Because many had been taught to leave quietly the church they built in time dropped most of their missionaries, changed worship style, changed song books, fired long time staff and then closed. Property sold to some charismatic outfit & all is well I guess.

Well, amen!
One more IFB church bites the dust!
Now they can experience real 'liberty' and 'freedom' in Christianity!  :

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

This is my opinion, but I think it is the height of rudeness to completely ignore a pastor who has ministered to you, both corporately and personally, for a number of years. Not only is it rude, but it is painful to those you leave behind, not just the pastor, but his wife, his children, and other people in the church who loved them very much.

I have experienced it from both sides.  My point is simply: When you tell people to leave quietly, and they do, don't be upset that they followed your advice. 

I know the hurt of having disciples leave your flock to another fold.  But, then again, they are not really my disciples, are they?  Hopefully, I have pointed them to Christ, not me.  The worst hurt is when they just give up on religion all together and use some lame excuse about me as the reason.  Let them say what they will.  I don't need to defend myself to the church, but rather continue to point people to Christ.  Ministry cannot be about how I helped someone, but how another has grown closer to Christ.

I have tried talking with pastors, only to have them not listen.  I have left churches for various reasons.  Only thrice has a pastor listened and understood my reasons I felt compelled to leave the membership of that church.  Most of them want to just assume you will get over your frustration, get right with God and get going in church again.  Then, when you just get going away from their church, they are wondering why....

 

[RAIDER]

Before I left the last church (several years ago) I met with the pastor.  Evidently others had spoken to him about some of the same issues.  I told him that my wife and I were going to be leaving and we were not sure to what church we would be going.  I thanked him for the years we were together, and assured him there were no hard feelings.
He leaned back in his chair and said, "RAIDER, what am I doing wrong?"  I told him that I wanted to continue to be his friend.  I told him that I would be glad to tell him if he really wanted to know.  He decided he did not want to know.  I thought that was a bit strange. 

 

[Exell]

Before I left the last church (several years ago) I met with the pastor.  Evidently others had spoken to him about some of the same issues.  I told him that my wife and I were going to be leaving and we were not sure to what church we would be going.  I thanked him for the years we were together, and assured him there were no hard feelings.
He leaned back in his chair and said, "RAIDER, what am I doing wrong?"  I told him that I wanted to continue to be his friend.  I told him that I would be glad to tell him if he really wanted to know.  He decided he did not want to know.  I thought that was a bit strange.

Why would you wait until it reached this point to talk to him?

 

[bgwilkinson]

Bro Miller was not a bad pastor.

What was Brother Miller/FBCH like during his pastorate?

Bro. Miller was what I would call very old school, an orthodox Baptist.

He was in the mold of C. H. Spurgeon.

He did not do anything controversial that would bring discredit to the LORD.

Sermons were filled with Bible Doctrine. He followed the Bible not his own philosophies.

The church was operated than as our new Constitution is written. Pastor leadership deacon oversight.

You might call him stuffy. No surprises. The church was very healthy under his leadership.

He wore black tails when he preached. The Dome gave you an almost Catholic feeling. Knelling benches.

If you were Anglican you would have been comfortable at FBCH in the 50's.

Sermons were not preached against other Christians. We were not taught to cause trouble for other

churches.

He was not looking for a fight. He was not an embarrassment to our Church.

He was held in high regard in the community, blameless to those outside our church.

If there was just one word to describe him it would be stability.

There were no scandals engulfing us during his tenure.

He led in the building of the first fireproof building in Hammond, the one that bares his name.

It is built like a vault, all poured concrete. Only the furnishings could have burned. The structure, floors,

walls and ceilings are all concrete. It was built much like Ed Minas built his department store on the site

of our new auditorium.

 

[bgwilkinson]

There has been much glowing Hyperbole used concerning Bro. Hyles. I am guilty of using it.

It is now time to provide a balance and tell the other side of the story.

At this point in time we can see the results of following God in some areas of life and totally disregarding

Him in other areas. I love Bro. Hyles dearly but it is now time to admit I was wrong to be a go along to get

along sort of person. There is much good that Bro. Hyles accomplished in his life for the cause of Christ.


As we can clearly see now he also failed in ways that brought pain and suffering and death to those he

loved. At one time I would have said he was the worlds greatest preacher, not true any more.

Maybe worlds greatest salesman, we can now see he sold a lot of snake oil basing his doctrine on his

own philosophies not solely on the Bible. He had the sickness of big-ism. He spent his life trying to please

his earthly father. He told us over and over how he promised his dad he would build the biggest church

in the world. Wood, Hay and Stubble. He was always looking for a fight.

I have been trying to peal back the layers of the onion for several years now.

KJVO. Magic Blood.  MOGism Catholic rule in a Baptist Church. Etc.

You sat under the ministry of Dr. Hyles for his complete time at FBCH.  Why do you think it took his death for you to realize all these things?  Surely they were just as prevalent while he was your pastor as they are now.  You have done a fine job of expressing your thoughts.  Just trying to figure out your thought pattern.

This is a hard one.

I stated elsewhere that I knew that the KJVO position could not stand up to the facts.

I knew it was a lie and was built on myths and false presuppositions.

As long as I did not look at the facts myself I could just rely on Bro. Hyles to tell me what was right to

believe. You could call that extreme laziness on my part.

When he died I had to reevaluate everything he had taught over the years.

I started with KJVO since I already had a background in Greek and Latin. It was easy.

I started with a facsimile KJV1611 and started studying it. I read translators to the reader several times

it became very clear that if the KJV translators were living now they would categorically reject the myth of

KJVO. I realized that Bro. Hyles had used us to build the biggest church in the world for his dad, his earthly

dad W. A. Hyles. I had to repent and turn to Jesus alone and not to some Man of God.

He used to repeat often "I will not use my people to build my work but I'll used my work to build my people."

Oh that sounded pious, but he was so wrong.

We were never his people and the work was never his.  The people and the work were the LORD's.

I categorically reject Man of God-ism.

Deep down I was at FBCH not for Bro. Hyles but for the LORD.

I did not come for Bro. Hyles, I would not leave because of Bro. Hyles either.

But I dearly love Bro. Hyles, maybe to a fault at times.

I am still at FBCH because of Jesus and my love for him and desire to serve him.

Pastors come and pastors go but Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I am still at FBCH because my loyalty lays with the LORD.

 

[tobytyler]

I've heard other 59ers (those who were FBC members in 1959 before Bro Hyles came to Hammond) say the same thing like bgwilkinson.  "We were here before him and I'll not leave my church because of him."  You'd be shocked of the people who've said that, very prominent people who are very much in the limelight. 

I believe that FBC lost many of the  "cream of the crop" when many left the church due to indiscretions by JH or DH. 

 

[RAIDER]

I've heard other 59ers (those who were FBC members in 1959 before Bro Hyles came to Hammond) say the same thing like bgwilkinson.  "We were here before him and I'll not leave my church because of him."  You'd be shocked of the people who've said that, very prominent people who are very much in the limelight. 

While I understand the difficulty of leaving a church that you have been attending for many years, I have never understood the "I'll not leave" mentality.  Why stay around a ministry where you are unhappy?  Why listen to teaching and preaching from someone with whom you don't agree?

 

[kaba]

While I am no longer at FBC, I understand the struggle of re-evaluating all that was taught there. I appreciate your post!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=RAIDER]Why stay around a ministry where you are unhappy?  Why listen to teaching and preaching from someone with whom you don't agree?[/quote]

I stayed at my previous church in the hope that I could be an agent of change whereby the body as a whole would have been better equipped to be ministers of reconciliation. It was only after it became apparent that the leadership was concerned primarily with maintaining the status quo that my family and I ultimately left.

 

[RAIDER]

[quote author=RAIDER]Why stay around a ministry where you are unhappy?  Why listen to teaching and preaching from someone with whom you don't agree?

I stayed at my previous church in the hope that I could be an agent of change whereby the body as a whole would have been better equipped to be ministers of reconciliation. It was only after it became apparent that the leadership was concerned primarily with maintaining the status quo that my family and I ultimately left.
[/quote]

Absolutely!  I did the same thing.  Looking back, it was a mistake, but at the time I felt it was the right thing to do.  With some of these folks we are talking about staying around for a decade.  That I do not understand.