Leaving a church quietly???

[bgwilkinson]

Of course I did stay at FBC during all the goings on the last 40+ years and I was there yesterday.

I guess I'm just hard to shake. So I am not someone who could really comment on the list.

I am interested in your take on the OP.  Through your postings over time I have noticed that you are very critical of Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap.  I don't believe you have said much good about either one of them, yet you have stayed at FBCH for 40 years.  What has stopped you from leaving or trying to stop the wrong that you say was going on?  Not trying to be a jerk, just interested.

Well I've been at FBCH through three pastor changes. I do not chose to attend FBCH because of the pastor.

My parents are responsible for my being at FBCH. I do not believe in changing churches in the way pastors

change churches. I have a large multi-generational family that is intermarried into other families that have

been in the church for decades and changing would be just too great a problem. I simply wait until God

moves the pastor on or the bad pastor leaves on his own. Bro Miller was not a bad pastor.

Pastor Miller preached in long black tails.


I go to FBCH to have a family reunion every time I'm there.


There has been much glowing Hyperbole used concerning Bro. Hyles. I am guilty of using it.

It is now time to provide a balance and tell the other side of the story.

At this point in time we can see the results of following God in some areas of life and totally disregarding

Him in other areas. I love Bro. Hyles dearly but it is now time to admit I was wrong to be a go along to get

along sort of person. There is much good that Bro. Hyles accomplished in his life for the cause of Christ.


As we can clearly see now he also failed in ways that brought pain and suffering and death to those he

loved. At one time I would have said he was the worlds greatest preacher, not true any more.

Maybe worlds greatest salesman, we can now see he sold a lot of snake oil basing his doctrine on his

own philosophies not solely on the Bible. He had the sickness of big-ism. He spent his life trying to please

his earthly father. He told us over and over how he promised his dad he would build the biggest church

in the world. Wood, Hay and Stubble. He was always looking for a fight.

I have been trying to peal back the layers of the onion for several years now.

KJVO. Magic Blood.  MOGism Catholic rule in a Baptist Church. Etc.

I believe the changing point in his tenure at FBCH was in the 60s when he had fire brand Ian Paisley

as a guest speaker. Ian started us on the road to KJVO and Magic Blood.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/

We were comfortable with him as we were very close to being Anglican in the 60s.

Ian was Free Presbyterian not a Baptist, but that didn't matter because he was a Fundamentalist.

Heresy became normal. If Bro Hyles said it it was right.



As for JS. He was very flawed from the beginning. The first time my wife and I saw JS was in Miller Hall.

We watched as he trailed Cindy around like a little puppy dog.

We viewed him as an extreme lite weight.

I was one of the 4% that voted against him.

As a church grief did the voting for most people. Bro. Hyles was missed greatly.

We wanted the security that Bro. Hyles provided. We should have used the security that God provides.

Js was trying to undo some of the doctrinal damage done by Bro. Hyles, but instead introduced his own

far out ideas.

I hope I answered your questions.

 

[Norefund]

I can't speak for Raider, but you did answer the question very well. Thank you.

 

[Lone Ranger]

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.

I know what you are saying, but I don't totally agree.  I have heard preachers say, "Don't tell me you are not getting fed here.  As a Christian you should feed yourself!"  It is a cop out for preachers who should get out of the ministry and get an honest job.  I do not believe a Christian can reach his full spiritual level without the preaching and teaching of God's Word. 



11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

My understanding of this passage in Eph 4:11-12 is that God has provided the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor-teachers for the express purpose of fine tuning (perfecting = making the necessary adjustments to) the believers in the local assembly so that they might perform the work of the ministry and build up God's church. The Greek word translated perfecting in the KJV is not the one which means maturing, but the noun which means exactly adjusted. Another form of the same word is also used in 1 Cor 1:10 where the KJV translates it "perfectly joined together."

We tend to mistakenly see three equal and parallel jobs of the pastors in verse 12 because of the three prepositions "for", but in the Greek the first "for" is a different preposition which literally means "with a view to". This turns it into one job of the pastor; which, when done correctly, will result in the saints fulfilling their two responsibilities. When the saints are adjusted correctly, they will do the work of the ministry and build up the body of Christ.

All that being said, I believe a body of believers can grow spiritually and see God's work progress, even if they have a pastor who is lacking in performing his responsibilities. Things just go a lot smoother when God's church is running on all cylinders and necessary tune ups and oil changes have been administered.

As a member of my local assembly, I will stay as long as I can continue to minister and edify the body. If that is no longer possible, then I must leave. I would never leave a church without meeting with the pastor first to let him know my reason for leaving. Since I am also a deacon, I would share with the deacon board my reasons as well.

 

[Timotheus]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

The thing about Tom's post that got me is that he KNEW the guy was continuing to tithe. The last couple of churches I've attended, the pastors made it clear that they don't want to have anything to do with the money and don't want information as to who gives and who doesn't. Maybe Tom knows from second-hand info but it just seems odd that it was important enough to him to mention it in that post.

 

[16KJV11]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

The thing about Tom's post that got me is that he KNEW the guy was continuing to tithe. The last couple of churches I've attended, the pastors made it clear that they don't want to have anything to do with the money and don't want information as to who gives and who doesn't. Maybe Tom knows from second-hand info but it just seems odd that it was important enough to him to mention it in that post.

There is a family that used to go to our church but moved to Oklahoma.
They continued to tithe to our church for several months.
In fact, their parents came up to our church to visit and they fell in love with the church.
They send us checks as well even though they haven't set foot in our church for almost a year.
I know this b/c I get the mail and open it.
That is probably the case with Bro. Tom.

 

[16KJV11]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

When a person leaves the church, it can be quite a traumatic event, maybe not outwardly, but in the hearts of those involved, especially the pastor.
I can tell you by memory each person who has left our church over the last 8 years and for what reason.
I don't keep a list, I just know.
Why do I know?
It's usually b/c it rips my heart out each time it happens, or it causes some sort of angst in the church and those things do not easily go away.
When you are not a hireling, and you genuinely care about those who leave, and you see the ripple effects to the rest of the church, and you grieve for the family, especially if they do not get involved in another church, and you can see spiritual casualties that result...
It hurts like a wound that never quite really heals.
I guess it's something that a pastor who has a shepherds heart genuinely understands that few laymen do.

 

[RAIDER]

Bro Miller was not a bad pastor.

What was Brother Miller/FBCH like during his pastorate?

 

[sword]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

When a person leaves the church, it can be quite a traumatic event, maybe not outwardly, but in the hearts of those involved, especially the pastor.
I can tell you by memory each person who has left our church over the last 8 years and for what reason.
I don't keep a list, I just know.
Why do I know?
It's usually b/c it rips my heart out each time it happens, or it causes some sort of angst in the church and those things do not easily go away.
When you are not a hireling, and you genuinely care about those who leave, and you see the ripple effects to the rest of the church, and you grieve for the family, especially if they do not get involved in another church, and you can see spiritual casualties that result...
It hurts like a wound that never quite really heals.
I guess it's something that a pastor who has a shepherds heart genuinely understands that few laymen do.

Do you really know or is it just the shallow reason they gave you after they were gone.
I have been a member of IFB churches for right at 50 yrs. In that time I have seen churches double & even triple in size. I have also seen 1000’s leave those same churches.  They leave for many reasons but they main reasons seem to be the same:
1. The leave because of a standard or standards they disagree with or in many cases their wife or teenage children disagree with. (these include both bible & man made standards)
2. The leave because they were hurt by the pastor or senior staff members.
3. They leave because of issues with the children or the pastor or senior staff members.
4. They leave because a situation or incident was handled poorly.
5. They leave because others are leaving. 
6. They leave because of the general direction of the church or changes in pastor’s vision. This would include doctrinal changes.
7. They leave because of scandal or cover up of any type. This would include abuse, financial impropriety, moral failures, power struggles and the like.
8. Sometimes they leave because they need a change or the church is no longer what it used to be. I so often hear them say the excitement is gone or the church seems to be dying.
9. They leave because of changes in certain ministries of the church (bus, school, college, missions support, RU, Sunday school, etc.)
10. They leave because they are relocating do to job, retirement, or health reasons.

This is not a complete list but includes some of the major ones from my experience.
The thing I find interesting is the reason the pastors give (and often believes) for members leaving is rarely the real reason. What the former members tell the preacher on their way out the door are usually just final excuses. Most often other faithful members know exactly why fellow members left but the pastor & senior staff members appear to have no idea. So quickly they forget the past issues & concerns those folks had. Often the disgruntled members have spoken to the pastor about their concerns but they were run out of the office or openly criticized in future sermons as being disloyal or critical. Those who disagree with the pastor are marginalized & sometimes treated poorly in the future. People learn to keep their concerns to themselves. It can take months or even years before those members break all ties but they eventually leave & are soon forgotten. Pastors often say they want to hear about concerns or even that their door is always open but members often feel the opposite. They feel the pastor does not want to hear concerns or complaints. When they do listen the do not deal with the concerns or follow up with those members on their actions. Some members even feel it’s easier to just pack up & move on then to try to deal with the problem directly. I am only speaking about the 10 or 12 churches I have close contact with but I suspect this is a problem everywhere.

 

[sword]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

When a person leaves the church, it can be quite a traumatic event, maybe not outwardly, but in the hearts of those involved, especially the pastor.
I can tell you by memory each person who has left our church over the last 8 years and for what reason.
I don't keep a list, I just know.
Why do I know?
It's usually b/c it rips my heart out each time it happens, or it causes some sort of angst in the church and those things do not easily go away.
When you are not a hireling, and you genuinely care about those who leave, and you see the ripple effects to the rest of the church, and you grieve for the family, especially if they do not get involved in another church, and you can see spiritual casualties that result...
It hurts like a wound that never quite really heals.
I guess it's something that a pastor who has a shepherds heart genuinely understands that few laymen do.

Do you really know or is it just the shallow reason they gave you after they were gone.

I have been a member of IFB churches for right at 50 yrs. In that time I have seen churches double & even triple in size. I have also seen 1000’s leave those same churches.  They leave for many reasons but the main reasons seem to be the same:

1.The leave because of a standard or standards they disagree with or in many cases their wife or teenage children disagree with. (these include both bible & man made standards)

2.They leave because they were hurt by the pastor or senior staff members.

3.They leave because of issues with the children or the pastor or senior staff members.

4.They leave because a situation or incident was handled poorly.

5.They leave because others are leaving. 

6.They leave because of the general direction of the church or changes in pastor’s vision. This would include doctrinal changes.

7.They leave because of scandal or cover up of any type. This would include abuse, financial impropriety, moral failures, power struggles and the like.

8.Sometimes they leave because they need a change or the church is no longer what it used to be. I so often hear them say the  excitement is gone or the church seems to be dying.

9.They leave because of changes in certain ministries of the church (bus, school, college, missions support, RU, Sunday school, etc.)

10.They leave because they are relocating because of  job, retirement, or health reasons.

This is not a complete list but includes some of the major ones from my experience.

The thing I find interesting is the reason the pastors give (and often believes) for members leaving is rarely the real reason. What the former members tell the preacher on their way out the door are usually just final excuses. Most often other faithful members know exactly why fellow members left but the pastor & senior staff members appear to have no idea. So quickly they forget the past issues & concerns those folks had. Often the disgruntled members have spoken to the pastor about their concerns but they were run out of the office or openly criticized in future sermons as being disloyal or critical. Those who disagree with the pastor are marginalized & sometimes treated poorly in the future. People learn to keep their concerns to themselves. It can take months or even years before those members break all ties but they eventually leave & are soon forgotten. Pastors often say they want to hear about concerns or even that their door is always open but members often feel the opposite. They feel the pastor does not want to hear concerns or complaints. When they do listen the do not deal with the concerns or follow up with those members on their actions. Some members even feel it’s easier to just pack up & move on then to try to deal with the problem directly.

I am only speaking about the 10 or 12 churches I have close contact with but I suspect this is a common problem.

 

[RAIDER]

There has been much glowing Hyperbole used concerning Bro. Hyles. I am guilty of using it.

It is now time to provide a balance and tell the other side of the story.

At this point in time we can see the results of following God in some areas of life and totally disregarding

Him in other areas. I love Bro. Hyles dearly but it is now time to admit I was wrong to be a go along to get

along sort of person. There is much good that Bro. Hyles accomplished in his life for the cause of Christ.


As we can clearly see now he also failed in ways that brought pain and suffering and death to those he

loved. At one time I would have said he was the worlds greatest preacher, not true any more.

Maybe worlds greatest salesman, we can now see he sold a lot of snake oil basing his doctrine on his

own philosophies not solely on the Bible. He had the sickness of big-ism. He spent his life trying to please

his earthly father. He told us over and over how he promised his dad he would build the biggest church

in the world. Wood, Hay and Stubble. He was always looking for a fight.

I have been trying to peal back the layers of the onion for several years now.

KJVO. Magic Blood.  MOGism Catholic rule in a Baptist Church. Etc.

You sat under the ministry of Dr. Hyles for his complete time at FBCH.  Why do you think it took his death for you to realize all these things?  Surely they were just as prevalent while he was your pastor as they are now.  You have done a fine job of expressing your thoughts.  Just trying to figure out your thought pattern. 

 

[16KJV11]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Wow.  You have a list.

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with PK a couple of years ago who basically told me that their dad had list of everyone who had left their church and the reason they left.  Somehow they all left for petty, shallow reasons.

This maybe a cultural misunderstanding (I am a layman and you are an IFB pastor), but it seems to me if you are keeping lists, you are building your church and not His church.

What if Jesus wanted them to leave?  What if you think you are easily approachable about problems but you are not?  What if the easiest way to get you off their back is to give you a shallow reason?

When a person leaves the church, it can be quite a traumatic event, maybe not outwardly, but in the hearts of those involved, especially the pastor.
I can tell you by memory each person who has left our church over the last 8 years and for what reason.
I don't keep a list, I just know.
Why do I know?
It's usually b/c it rips my heart out each time it happens, or it causes some sort of angst in the church and those things do not easily go away.
When you are not a hireling, and you genuinely care about those who leave, and you see the ripple effects to the rest of the church, and you grieve for the family, especially if they do not get involved in another church, and you can see spiritual casualties that result...
It hurts like a wound that never quite really heals.
I guess it's something that a pastor who has a shepherds heart genuinely understands that few laymen do.

Do you really know or is it just the shallow reason they gave you after they were gone.
I have been a member of IFB churches for right at 50 yrs. In that time I have seen churches double & even triple in size. I have also seen 1000’s leave those same churches.  They leave for many reasons but they main reasons seem to be the same:
1. The leave because of a standard or standards they disagree with or in many cases their wife or teenage children disagree with. (these include both bible & man made standards)
2. The leave because they were hurt by the pastor or senior staff members.
3. They leave because of issues with the children or the pastor or senior staff members.
4. They leave because a situation or incident was handled poorly.
5. They leave because others are leaving. 
6. They leave because of the general direction of the church or changes in pastor’s vision. This would include doctrinal changes.
7. They leave because of scandal or cover up of any type. This would include abuse, financial impropriety, moral failures, power struggles and the like.
8. Sometimes they leave because they need a change or the church is no longer what it used to be. I so often hear them say the excitement is gone or the church seems to be dying.
9. They leave because of changes in certain ministries of the church (bus, school, college, missions support, RU, Sunday school, etc.)
10. They leave because they are relocating do to job, retirement, or health reasons.

This is not a complete list but includes some of the major ones from my experience.
The thing I find interesting is the reason the pastors give (and often believes) for members leaving is rarely the real reason. What the former members tell the preacher on their way out the door are usually just final excuses. Most often other faithful members know exactly why fellow members left but the pastor & senior staff members appear to have no idea. So quickly they forget the past issues & concerns those folks had. Often the disgruntled members have spoken to the pastor about their concerns but they were run out of the office or openly criticized in future sermons as being disloyal or critical. Those who disagree with the pastor are marginalized & sometimes treated poorly in the future. People learn to keep their concerns to themselves. It can take months or even years before those members break all ties but they eventually leave & are soon forgotten. Pastors often say they want to hear about concerns or even that their door is always open but members often feel the opposite. They feel the pastor does not want to hear concerns or complaints. When they do listen the do not deal with the concerns or follow up with those members on their actions. Some members even feel it’s easier to just pack up & move on then to try to deal with the problem directly. I am only speaking about the 10 or 12 churches I have close contact with but I suspect this is a problem everywhere.

What you say is very true, and I have experienced it as a layman and staff member first hand.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Tom, I have seen these types of people far too often.  Not one good reason on the list.  I have also found that these type people leave over something silly, but there are often deeper issues and problems.

We currently have a family that left our church.  They were upset about what they felt was one of their kids not being treated fairly.  After it was fully explained to them, they still left.  They are now telling everyone that they left because the drive was too far, and they have found a church closer to home.

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

 

[Bruh]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.
Also, I see no reason why you shouldn't call your pastor on it. After prayer and careful consideration, go and talk with him, it will probably be a tough conversation but will probably be the best thing to happen to both of you. I am sure it would challenge him to preach fresher sermons while at the same time remind him that he is accountable to the Church.

I understand what you are saying, to an extent.  I guess my question to you would be, what is the purpose of a believer to attend church?  Because, going through this I have given it much thought.  And I am convinced that a major reason we go to church is to be fed. 

Pastors are paid to be in the Word and deliver something fresh to the ppl.  If not WHY have a Pastor, what is his purpose in the church?

I'm wondering if you would be brutally honest with all of us on this forum and give your age? 

I have never met a Pastor that would accept that kind of accountability. 

 

[Fresh Air]

Wow.  You have a list.

When you love people very much it hurts very much when they walk away.

 

[RAIDER]

Wow.  You have a list.

When you love people very much it hurts very much when they walk away.

Tom, I can hear you know yelling from the pulpit, "Those doors swing both ways!  Don't let them hit you when you walk out!!" 

 

[Fresh Air]

The thing about Tom's post that got me is that he KNEW the guy was continuing to tithe. The last couple of churches I've attended, the pastors made it clear that they don't want to have anything to do with the money and don't want information as to who gives and who doesn't. Maybe Tom knows from second-hand info but it just seems odd that it was important enough to him to mention it in that post.

He mails it in. We're a one man shop. I open the mail. I mentioned it b/c I find it very odd in that situation. I do not know who gives what in relation to giving via the offering plate or online.

 

[Fresh Air]

Why are you both upset that people left your church quietly?  They chose to leave for their reason and chose not to spread their reason around the church.  Why are you upset at their leaving quietly?  Maybe it would be better if we always broadcasted our reasons?

This is my opinion, but I think it is the height of rudeness to completely ignore a pastor who has ministered to you, both corporately and personally, for a number of years. Not only is it rude, but it is painful to those you leave behind, not just the pastor, but his wife, his children, and other people in the church who loved them very much.

 

[Fresh Air]

Wow.  You have a list.

When you love people very much it hurts very much when they walk away.

Tom, I can hear you know yelling from the pulpit, "Those doors swing both ways!  Don't let them hit you when you walk out!!" 

I always schedule it in advance so the PA man knows to turn the treble up and the bass down when I do it. If he isn't listening I just pound on the mic and yell, 'Hey, PA man!'

 

[16KJV11]

Wow.  You have a list.

When you love people very much it hurts very much when they walk away.

Tom, I can hear you know yelling from the pulpit, "Those doors swing both ways!  Don't let them hit you when you walk out!!" 

I always schedule it in advance so the PA man knows to turn the treble up and the bass down when I do it. If he isn't listening I just pound on the mic and yell, 'Hey, PA man!'

And you yell...HEEEYAAAAAHHHH!!!