Leaving a church quietly???

[Exell]

My immediate thought is one should never leave a church quietly. The reason being, one should only leave a church that God has joined them to, when the problem is so severe and of such vital importance, that to leave silently without bringing the problem into an open light would be an egregious violation of conscience.

 

[Exell]

It became extremely obvious by the year 2008 that there were serious doctrinal errors. God's will in this type of situation must be carefully discerned. You either leave for the reason mentioned above (doctrinal error) or stay and ride out the storm knowing God will give you the grace to endure. The Lord has led us to do both.

It was obvious a long time before that,  if you were there.

Anishinaabe

When he wrote the book, Independent Baptists ... Where Were We? Where Are We? Where Are We Going?, in 2008 - it became extremely obvious to all! 

Yeah,  that was a doozy!

Anishinaabe

I had many problems with Schaap and his theology but don't remember taking an issue with this book. What in your opinion was doctrinally wrong with it?

 

[Bruh]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

 

[Tim]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

Thank God for the internet, MP3 sermons, and Bible Teachers you can listen to and supplement the dryness at ones local Church.

 

[RAIDER]

It became extremely obvious by the year 2008 that there were serious doctrinal errors. God's will in this type of situation must be carefully discerned. You either leave for the reason mentioned above (doctrinal error) or stay and ride out the storm knowing God will give you the grace to endure. The Lord has led us to do both.

Jehanne, thanks for your post.  I agree with your timeline for the most part.  Here is where I have a problem (and I am not criticizing your choice as I do not know the details).  You say that there were "serious doctrinal errors" in 2008.  You also say that a choice was to "stay and ride out the storm".  Does not the Scripture say, 2 Timothy 4:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

What would have been the outcome if everyone who saw these "serious doctrinal errors" would have approached a deacon or would have gathered a group to meet with key people?  How many people and staff sat and let this continue with the idea of "riding out the storm"?

Again, please don't take this as criticism, but rather me trying to wrap my mind around what happened.

 

[Bruh]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

Thank God for the internet, MP3 sermons, and Bible Teachers you can listen to and supplement the dryness at ones local Church.

How about, "Thank God for the Holy Spirit and the Bible!"

I agree with you but I am convinced that one of the reasons our Lord started the church is that His ppl would be fed.  Broccoli is good for you but if that is all you eat there will be health problems. 

 

[Exell]

"Lack of balance is one of the most fruitful causes of trouble and discord and disquietude in the life of the Christian man.
  Once more I have to indicate that the cause of this lack of balance can be laid, I fear too often, to the charge of the preacher or the evangelist.  Lop-sided Christians are generally produced by preachers or evangelist whose doctrine lacks balance, or rotundity, or wholeness."  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

I had my wife read this the other day.  Because, we are dealing with this to an extent.  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

There is no where else to go, that we would agree with.  We feel stuck and we know we are not growing Spiritually any longer.     

The above from D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is the first that I have ever heard coming from another preacher.  We have felt this way for some time now.......

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.
Also, I see no reason why you shouldn't call your pastor on it. After prayer and careful consideration, go and talk with him, it will probably be a tough conversation but will probably be the best thing to happen to both of you. I am sure it would challenge him to preach fresher sermons while at the same time remind him that he is accountable to the Church.

 

[RAIDER]

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Tom, I have seen these types of people far too often.  Not one good reason on the list.  I have also found that these type people leave over something silly, but there are often deeper issues and problems.

We currently have a family that left our church.  They were upset about what they felt was one of their kids not being treated fairly.  After it was fully explained to them, they still left.  They are now telling everyone that they left because the drive was too far, and they have found a church closer to home.

 

[Exell]

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Tom, I have seen these types of people far too often.  Not one good reason on the list.  I have also found that these type people leave over something silly, but there are often deeper issues and problems.

We currently have a family that left our church.  They were upset about what they felt was one of their kids not being treated fairly.  After it was fully explained to them, they still left.  They are now telling everyone that they left because the drive was too far, and they have found a church closer to home.

You leave in your heart first, then you find a reason.

 

[RAIDER]

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.

I know what you are saying, but I don't totally agree.  I have heard preachers say, "Don't tell me you are not getting fed here.  As a Christian you should feed yourself!"  It is a cop out for preachers who should get out of the ministry and get an honest job.  I do not believe a Christian can reach his full spiritual level without the preaching and teaching of God's Word. 

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

[Bruh]

If you are not spiritually growing that is on you, not your pastor. If one needed a pastor to grow spiritually, pastors would be the most spiritually immature among us. Serve God and the people in your church, and grow in your walk with God an understanding of Scriptures alone. Buy good books, write a Sunday School lesson plan, read Scripture prayerfully and studiously and you will grow.

I know what you are saying, but I don't totally agree.  I have heard preachers say, "Don't tell me you are not getting fed here.  As a Christian you should feed yourself!"  It is a cop out for preachers who should get out of the ministry and get an honest job.  I do not believe a Christian can reach his full spiritual level without the preaching and teaching of God's Word. 

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Thank you Raider, I couldn't of said it any better.

 

[16KJV11]

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

Tom, I have seen these types of people far too often.  Not one good reason on the list.  I have also found that these type people leave over something silly, but there are often deeper issues and problems.

We currently have a family that left our church.  They were upset about what they felt was one of their kids not being treated fairly.  After it was fully explained to them, they still left.  They are now telling everyone that they left because the drive was too far, and they have found a church closer to home.

You leave in your heart first, then you find a reason.

My heart vacated the premises about 6 years ago, I have a million reasons to leave, yet...

 

[bgwilkinson]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

I read your list with amusement.

None of these would seem to rise to the level of even being noticed. Like a fly buzzing around outside

your house in the summer time when you are in your den watching a good video with the sound up to the

max and all the windows closed with the AC on full blast. These reasons are simply not good reasons.


Of course I did stay at FBC during all the goings on the last 40+ years and I was there yesterday.

I guess I'm just hard to shake. So I am not someone who could really comment on the list.

 

[brainisengaged]

By 2008 his doctrinal error became obvious to all IFBaptists.

Hightlighted below, God has led us to either go or stay .... We have done both.

It became extremely obvious by the year 2008 that there were serious doctrinal errors.

God's will in this type of situation must be carefully discerned. You either leave for the reason mentioned above (doctrinal error) or stay and ride out the storm knowing God will give you the grace to endure.

The Lord has led us to do both.

Jehanne, it is HIGHLIGHT, not HIGHTLIGHT.

 

[Fresh Air]

  We hear the same sermons every year, and I mean the same ones every year, outlines and all.  It makes it very, very hard.  At times we do hear something fresh but then that becomes part of the every year arsenal.

Seriously? That's appalling...

 

[Fresh Air]

You leave in your heart first, then you find a reason.

You leave in your heart first, then you find an excuse.

...fixed it for you.

 

[Fresh Air]

But, isn't repetition the key to learning!

I tend to take notes ... I love a good outline.

lol... yes, but repetition that is not varied isn't the key to learning but the door into the rooms of boredom and resentment. I can see a pastor doing this if he is seriously ill, or about 70 years of age and totally out of steam while he helping the church to look for a replacement. I don't think it would be right in either case, but it would make sense. I just can't picture an healthy pastor repeating the same sermons every year. What in the world do you pay him for?

I'm not against repeating an occasional sermon for specific reasons, but the scenario this poor brother described is incredibly sad.

 

[Exell]

You leave in your heart first, then you find a reason.

You leave in your heart first, then you find an excuse.

...fixed it for you.

Exactly.

 

[bgwilkinson]

But, isn't repetition the key to learning!

I tend to take notes ... I love a good outline.

lol... yes, but repetition that is not varied isn't the key to learning but the door into the rooms of boredom and resentment. I can see a pastor doing this if he is seriously ill, or about 70 years of age and totally out of steam while he helping the church to look for a replacement. I don't think it would be right in either case, but it would make sense. I just can't picture an healthy pastor repeating the same sermons every year. What in the world do you pay him for?

I'm not against repeating an occasional sermon for specific reasons, but the scenario this poor brother described is incredibly sad.

Hay! I resent that remark. LOL 

 

[RAIDER]

Of course I did stay at FBC during all the goings on the last 40+ years and I was there yesterday.

I guess I'm just hard to shake. So I am not someone who could really comment on the list.

I am interested in your take on the OP.  Through your postings over time I have noticed that you are very critical of Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap.  I don't believe you have said much good about either one of them, yet you have stayed at FBCH for 40 years.  What has stopped you from leaving or trying to stop the wrong that you say was going on?  Not trying to be a jerk, just interested.