Leaving a church quietly???

[RAIDER]

At HAC we were always taught that if you have a serious problem with a pastor or church you should just leave quietly.  I have been attended IFB churches for 44 years.  During that time I have left two churches because of issues.

I left the first church because the pastor should have never been a pastor.  He was a nice guy.  The problem was he was not good at teaching or preaching.  He had a very backward personality and was much more at home being alone instead of being with people.  The church was dying and the pastor could not see it.

I left the second church because the pastor started preaching doctrines to which I could not agree.  Again, a nice guy for the most part, but in many ways was like a bull in a china closet.  This church was being slowly destroyed.

Both times I stayed longer than I should have.  Both times I spoke privately to the pastor to let him know I was leaving.  Because I meant the pastor no harm and desired to leave quietly, I did not go into details.  I handled my leaving in a very quiet fashion and did everything in my power not to stir the waters.

The first church continued to lose families.  These families left quietly and began to attend other churches in the area.  Finally, a couple of key men went to the pastor and convinced him that things were not working.  The pastor resigned and assumed the role of a layman.  Since this time the church has called a new pastor and is doing well and growing.

The second church had a major split (service walk out, police, etc).  The pastor decided to try and prove a point and stay at the church.  He hung on with a hand full of people until the church closed and the buildings had to be sold.

Here is my point of topic.  When is it right to go to the pastor as an individual or group and confront him with issues.  When is it right to ask a pastor to leave instead of watching the church lose families?  Is it ever right to take a vote of confidence?  I'm not talking about immoral or wrong behavior on the part of the pastor (thought obviously some idiots, I mean Hackers, would treat that the same way).  Hacker Nation, what think ye?     

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I don't think there is a line of demarcation as to when is the right time. We tried to leave one church "quietly" and when we told the pastor we were leaving, he (out of his previous character) screamed and yelled at me and told me to get my stuff and never set foot in his church ever again.

The last church we left quietly in 2013, we did speak with the pastor and he was gracious and said he would offered to help us find a place that might be more suited to what our family needed.

In neither situation did it involve any kind of "sin" or "heresy" or whatnot but rather in both cases, we needed a support group for our children which wasn't being met in either congregation.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Of course this is my opinion on what I believe the Bible teaches on the matter of confronting a pastor over error or sin.

In Bro. Hyles day he sure did teach that if you had a problem with the pastor you would just leave quietly.

I believe he taught this as a way of protecting himself. He did not teach this from the Bible.

Where do we find the Bible teaching you can not question and confront the pastor over sin and

error?


We are taught in scripture the following:


1Ti 5:19  Against an elder receive not an accusation, except at the mouth of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20  Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.
1Ti 5:21  I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.
1Ti 5:22  Lay hands hastily on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


Bro. Hyles would quote ITim 5:19 ad nauseam while proclaiming it was a sin to disagree with him.

He was always right. He drilled this into us. We were afraid to question anything he said.

If you had a question you were told to go ask Bro. Hyles and he would tell you what to do.

We should have continued on to verse 20 and multiple of us should have confronted him with the Bible. "reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear."

We did not.

We should have reproved him as we were instructed by God. We should have obeyed God rather than man.

We were to "observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality."

But we did not obey the LORD. We have reaped the whirlwind in our church.

We disobeyed verse 22 when we allowed Bro Hyles to choose JS as next pastor.

Worse Bro. Hyles even lobbied us for years to have Dave as our pastor when he died.

This was after it was public knowledge what Dave had done in Garland.

He that covereth his sin shall not prosper.

We need to stand up and cry out against sin and error.

Cry out for righteousness. Do not just slink away quietly.

 

[Tim]

I wish I had answers. When we left our last Church we confronted the pastor and his wife, but they just lied away and we got frustrated .... many people still attend and they are not happy with the pastor, but they keep on paying tithe, investing time ... they are comfortable.

My thoughts at the moment is that the leading of the Lord is important. I felt the Lord lead us away quietly after we opened our mouth, but I also felt lead to have a final say and not just leave without any explanation.

The Lord will lead and we must listen. I suppose He could use a few families to set a Church straight, but if the pastor isn't the best and the people are far from God to even listen and change the situation - I guess they are just perfect for each other.

 

[prophet]

Of course this is my opinion on what I believe the Bible teaches on the matter of confronting a pastor over error or sin.

In Bro. Hyles day he sure did teach that if you had a problem with the pastor you would just leave quietly.

I believe he taught this as a way of protecting himself. He did not teach this from the Bible.

Where do we find the Bible teaching you can not question and confront the pastor over sin and

error?


We are taught in scripture the following:


1Ti 5:19  Against an elder receive not an accusation, except at the mouth of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20  Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.
1Ti 5:21  I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.
1Ti 5:22  Lay hands hastily on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


Bro. Hyles would quote ITim 5:19 ad nauseam while proclaiming it was a sin to disagree with him.

He was always right. He drilled this into us. We were afraid to question anything he said.

If you had a question you were told to go ask Bro. Hyles and he would tell you what to do.

We should have continued on to verse 20 and multiple of us should have confronted him with the Bible. "reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear."

We did not.

We should have reproved him as we were instructed by God. We should have obeyed God rather than man.

We were to "observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality."

But we did not obey the LORD. We have reaped the whirlwind in our church.

We disobeyed verse 22 when we allowed Bro Hyles to choose JS as next pastor.

Worse Bro. Hyles even lobbied us for years to have Dave as our pastor when he died.

This was after it was public knowledge what Dave had done in Garland.

He that covereth his sin shall not prosper.

We need to stand up and cry out against sin and error.

Cry out for righteousness. Do not just slink away quietly.

I dont have to post, you covered it.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

Of course this is my opinion on what I believe the Bible teaches on the matter of confronting a pastor over error or sin.

In Bro. Hyles day he sure did teach that if you had a problem with the pastor you would just leave quietly.

I believe he taught this as a way of protecting himself. He did not teach this from the Bible.

Where do we find the Bible teaching you can not question and confront the pastor over sin and

error?


We are taught in scripture the following:


1Ti 5:19  Against an elder receive not an accusation, except at the mouth of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20  Them that sin reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear.
1Ti 5:21  I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.
1Ti 5:22  Lay hands hastily on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.


Bro. Hyles would quote ITim 5:19 ad nauseam while proclaiming it was a sin to disagree with him.

He was always right. He drilled this into us. We were afraid to question anything he said.

If you had a question you were told to go ask Bro. Hyles and he would tell you what to do.

We should have continued on to verse 20 and multiple of us should have confronted him with the Bible. "reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear."

We did not.

We should have reproved him as we were instructed by God. We should have obeyed God rather than man.

We were to "observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality."

But we did not obey the LORD. We have reaped the whirlwind in our church.

We disobeyed verse 22 when we allowed Bro Hyles to choose JS as next pastor.

Worse Bro. Hyles even lobbied us for years to have Dave as our pastor when he died.

This was after it was public knowledge what Dave had done in Garland.

He that covereth his sin shall not prosper.

We need to stand up and cry out against sin and error.

Cry out for righteousness. Do not just slink away quietly.

Where do you find the role of pastor, in the Scriptures?
The word appears once in the NT.
There is not no Biblical mandate for the churchking office.

Weak men (JH was emotionally effeminate ,insecure, a woman in a man's body) gravitate towards positions of unrestricted power.  God never meant for such a position to exist.




Anishinaabe

 

[RAIDER]

It is a very difficult thing.  I have been in churches where there are people that definitely fit the Biblical definition of a scorner.  I have also seen those that "sow discord".  It becomes easy for church leaders to lump everyone who has an issue into one of these two categories.  Unfortunately, there are times when a pastor needs to be confronted with problems in his ministry.  I believe the average IFB church member would avoid doing this because of the fear of being branded into one of these two categories.

 

[Sherryh]

I've never left a church because of the pastor or problems....we left Hammond to work for my husbands pastor who was wonderful...I cried when he went to California. My husband pastored for awhile and we lost the building. We've been at our current church which has helped us in so many ways...

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I left churches:

1.  Publicly and politely to go to a new ministry.  No problems.

2.  When I saw things in the church with which I disagreed.  I found a new ministry and told no one.

3.  When I discovered money laundering into the pastor's pocket.  I tried to point out the money trail had some holes.  I was fired and told to never return - ever.  I left with hurt, but told no one.

4.  After a pastor manipulated me and my family, abused his "power," was guilty of money laundering, spent more time on politics than ministry, considered himself the saviour of America rather than the pastor of the church, refused to visit or lead in soul winning, and other such failures that many in the IFB super church leadership possess - PRIDE.  I tried speaking to him - met with blasts accusing me for church membership leaving.  I tried getting other, higher ranking staff to speak to him - they had MOG vision.  I left quietly.  I was then lied about and most friends and converts and disciples of many years will no longer speak to me or my family.  I have been instructed to never return to the institution.  When some have contacted me and asked - I told them everything, until they could take no more.  Each of them return to their country club and enjoy their little land of make-believe significance.  I have never contacted anyone just to fill them in.



Maybe I should have shouted from the house tops the heresy of the church.  I felt the ones who would hear and understand already knew and didn't care.  I felt the ones who were young in the faith would only be rattled to the point of walking away from anything related to Christ.  Maybe I should have loudly warned, but I did not.  I hurt for those who are trapped in such churches.  I do not comprehend people who know of the errors and stay.

 

[fishinnut]

Having been a pastor it is difficult to put up with much trash (Marine term) from some pastors. My priority has always been staying true to Christ, His Word and protecting my family.

I left one large IFB church because the pastor within a 2 month period referred to keeping up with his horoscope. I called him & confronted him....of course he said he wasn't some kind of soothsayer or anything. I didn't want my kids getting into that trash & I left. He's still there, his kids were a mess & are now on staff.

I left another large IFB church because the pastor could see no wrong in his son who was the assistant pastor. The son was a mess, very immature & was preaching JH sermons, even using the same titles. I confronted him & was branded a trouble maker. Word started getting back to me from other preachers in other states. We left, the son became the pastor, his wife divorced him, the church dwindled down to 30 people & gave the building to another church plant. I told him I was leaving just before our last service there & he unnecessarily announced it at the end a the service & lied telling everyone that I was leaving to become an assistant of another church....not.

I left another IFB church running about 225 in attendance after 10 years because the old pastor hired a HACker who could play the piano & sing well but couldn't preach without beating the members down. The old guy left & he railroaded the HACker in as pastor. The HACker was not a leader. He ran off all the deacons rewrote the church constitution making himself untouchable. If he didn't like or appreciate something in your life he would call them on the phone scream & yell  about how the needed to get right with God & him then then lie about it to the new youthful deacons. He left when the attendance dropped to less than 50 & demanded (as his constitution stated) 3 month severance pay.

I never worried about what other members thought if I left, only how these situations would affect my family. All my kids are grown now & all of them are living all out for Christ. Quiet......noisy...... I have a hard time with some trash. Sometimes it's just best to do as the song says...."moving me down the highway."
Jim Croce - Greatest Hits - I Got A Name

 

[Sherryh]

I've never experienced some of these chaos its amazing each one of you are in church today. It speaks of your character....

 

[Fresh Air]

I used to think one should always leave a church quietly. Now I think one should almost always leave a church quietly. The difference is this: Most people leave churches for shallow reasons or personality conflicts; a few people leave churches over something substantial, like heretical doctrine (major) or egregious immorality. I think the former should leave quietly. I think the latter should cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

 

[16KJV11]

I used to think one should always leave a church quietly. Now I think one should almost always leave a church quietly. The difference is this: Most people leave churches for shallow reasons or personality conflicts; a few people leave churches over something substantial, like heretical doctrine (major) or egregious immorality. I think the former should leave quietly. I think the latter should cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

Sounds reasonable.

 

[BALAAM]

I used to think one should always leave a church quietly. Now I think one should almost always leave a church quietly. The difference is this: Most people leave churches for shallow reasons or personality conflicts; a few people leave churches over something substantial, like heretical doctrine (major) or egregious immorality. I think the former should leave quietly. I think the latter should cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

I don't remember the word egregious being on my list. Aboard, about, above, across, after, against, along.........................  ;D

 

[Timotheus]

I used to think one should always leave a church quietly. Now I think one should almost always leave a church quietly. The difference is this: Most people leave churches for shallow reasons or personality conflicts; a few people leave churches over something substantial, like heretical doctrine (major) or egregious immorality. I think the former should leave quietly. I think the latter should cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons".    Leaving and letting loose the dogs of war is not so easy.  The pastor has the microphone and the ear of the people (including in my case family and friends)  Following Jesus is a lot harder (and a lot more rewarding!) than following a so called man of god.

 

[RAIDER]

Following is a post from groupie from another thread.  He is referring to Schaap.

and to think in my darkest hours of despair, all he could do for me was open his office door and say, "You have three minutes, so hurry up". The next meeting he had his staff lie and say he was out of town when I knew he was not as he had passed me Indianapolis Blvd. The next meeting he cursed me out using the "F" word and a few other choice 4 letter words and then jerked open his door to a hallway full of folks and yelled, "Don't come back until you get right with God".

I told 4 people and all of them told me to stop lying and attacking God's man. A few months back , 1 of those people told me that type of languag, which he often used in his angry tirades to staff, got him labeled as "the Bobby Knight" of fundamentalism. Still no apology from him for calling me a liar and attacking God's man.

It is really quite sad as there was a time, I would have done anything the man told me to do. I loved him and was a loyal friend. That love and loyalty was not reciprocated. Because of his actions, I have never been able to totally give my heart to a pastor since. But in time, it was the greatest blessing. It has caused me to cling to Christ with every bit of strength I have.

This is a real life example of the OP of this thread.  I am interested.  Hacker Nation, what do you think groupie should have done?

 

[prophet]

It became extremely obvious by the year 2008 that there were serious doctrinal errors. God's will in this type of situation must be carefully discerned. You either leave for the reason mentioned above (doctrinal error) or stay and ride out the storm knowing God will give you the grace to endure. The Lord has led us to do both.

It was obvious a long time before that,  if you were there.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

I've never experienced some of these chaos its amazing each one of you are in church today. It speaks of your character....

Sherry,  I mean you no disrespect,  and ask that you forgive me,  if I am out of line.
But I believe that the word character is over used,  and that God's leading is misunderstood.
We are His sheep,  and that's why we serve Him,  despite any hardships.

In my case,  I claim not one ounce of credit.  I was a rebel,  not seeking the LORD,  and He chastened me.  He led me into green pasture. 
I realize more each day, how little of it is my doing.
God is the one saying "my word says..., you know that man is lying right now,  as He brings His Word into my thoughts".
Every day,  all day,  He fills my mind with it.  I have to hole up,  and pull out my Bible,  and read that portion.  And then my head is filled with the teacher,  teaching,  my heart is stirred,  I have to share it.
I'm just minding my own business,  living life,  and He does this. 
He sends people to me, to ask me what He says.  They come back with friends.
I don't pursue anything,  except Him.  He arranges it all.

I'm sure we all can say the same thing.

Anishinaabe

 

[Fresh Air]

Your pastoral slip is showing. 

It is easy to blame people who leave for having "shallow reasons". 

Okay. Let's see, shall we. I don't lose a lot of people, but lets take the last ten or so, going back about a year.

1 - left b/c I preached too loud twice a year or so, even though he sits in the back, and had already listened to me preach for 9 years; curiously, he still tithes here though...
2-4 - left after being with me for nine years, and wouldn't return any phone calls, letters, emails, or visits; I don't have a clue, and neither does anybody else at our church why they left
5-8 - left b/c I changed the location of the church Christmas party from an outside banquet facility to the church fellowship hall; I did this b/c offerings were down last year and we could no longer afford the 2 grand for the banquet hall; they had been with me for six years, and likewise have refused to return calls, letters, or visits, or give any reason why; I only know what they have told other people in our church
9 - left b/c he saw someone using the church van to push open the parking lot gate (his words, not mine; I finally convinced him to return)
10 and 11 - left b/c he was third in line to see me after a Sunday morning service and thought he had to wait too long; he'd been with me for three years and I have personally given him scores of hours of time in counseling

...um, looking for any good reason in this list; not finding one, except possibly the first guy. That perhaps falls into personality conflict, and I can understand why somebody would leave a church over that, even if I don't agree with it. Now, maybe you think one of these reasons is scriptural, but I don't. Maybe you think these people should have pitched a fit, and tried to chase me off about the decision over the Christmas party maybe? I don't know. Maybe your experience is completely different than mine. Maybe all the people you've seen leave a church have left b/c the pastor embezzled money or began to preach universal salvation, I don't know.

Prejudiced? Me? No. Observant, experienced, and tired of babysitting carnal Christians who want to be catered to in their carnality.

 

[prophet]

It became extremely obvious by the year 2008 that there were serious doctrinal errors. God's will in this type of situation must be carefully discerned. You either leave for the reason mentioned above (doctrinal error) or stay and ride out the storm knowing God will give you the grace to endure. The Lord has led us to do both.

It was obvious a long time before that,  if you were there.

Anishinaabe

When he wrote the book, Independent Baptists ... Where Were We? Where Are We? Where Are We Going?, in 2008 - it became extremely obvious to all! 

Yeah,  that was a doozy!

Anishinaabe