Jim Vineyard

[Vince Massi]

Okay, I am writing a thread about the Deceit at HAC and FBCH, and we got off on a Jim Vineyard trail. I'm giving him his own thread, but I want this thread to be honest. If someone has something good to say about the world's largest church bus ministry, I would like that person to be treated with respect.

Now I'm going to explain how the trick was performed:

Jim Vineyard never built a big bus route. Dan Taylor explains that Jim even took a bunch of HAC students with him to north Chicago and they came back empty-handed. Jim's ability was "motivation," by means that were Godly, sinful, in the flesh, from the wisdom of God, or whatever, but he himself couldn't do it. Jim could get us whooping and yelling with enthusiasm, but he himself couldn't do it.

IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO BUILT THE WORLD'S LARGEST CHURCH BUS MINISTRY. Vineyard got paid speaking engagements and did not work anywhere near as hard as the working students who  ran those routes. Vineyard slandered students who were Godlier than himself. He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints. It might have happened, but in his entire time at HAC, and during my entire time at OBC, I do not recall Jim ever having a convert from visitation. Jim couldn't do it. IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO DID IT.

 

[IFB X-Files]

He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints.

I guess Hyles' "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen" started earlier than we all thought!  Unless....Hyles was in on it too?  Wait!  Nischik was going to blow the whole thing open!  Yes!  Then Hyles put Nischik in his own basement!  It's all so clear now!  The "affair" was a smokescreen to hide the "violent crimes"!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Vince Massi]...but in his entire time at HAC, and during my entire time at OBC, I do not recall Jim ever having a convert from visitation. Jim couldn't do it. IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO DID IT.[/quote]

It was God Who did it.

And, thus my issue with the term "soul-winning".

 

[RAIDER]

Okay, I am writing a thread about the Deceit at HAC and FBCH, and we got off on a Jim Vineyard trail. I'm giving him his own thread, but I want this thread to be honest. If someone has something good to say about the world's largest church bus ministry, I would like that person to be treated with respect.

Now I'm going to explain how the trick was performed:

Jim Vineyard never built a big bus route. Dan Taylor explains that Jim even took a bunch of HAC students with him to north Chicago and they came back empty-handed. Jim's ability was "motivation," by means that were Godly, sinful, in the flesh, from the wisdom of God, or whatever, but he himself couldn't do it. Jim could get us whooping and yelling with enthusiasm, but he himself couldn't do it.

IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO BUILT THE WORLD'S LARGEST CHURCH BUS MINISTRY. Vineyard got paid speaking engagements and did not work anywhere near as hard as the working students who  ran those routes. Vineyard slandered students who were Godlier than himself. He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints. It might have happened, but in his entire time at HAC, and during my entire time at OBC, I do not recall Jim ever having a convert from visitation. Jim couldn't do it. IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO DID IT.

And yet you worked for him after leaving HAC.

 

[Fresh Air]

He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints.

I guess Hyles' "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen" started earlier than we all thought!  Unless....Hyles was in on it too?  Wait!  Nischik was going to blow the whole thing open!  Yes!  Then Hyles put Nischik in his own basement!  It's all so clear now!  The "affair" was a smokescreen to hide the "violent crimes"!

...now I understand. Thanks.

 

[JustABigKid]

Okay, I am writing a thread about the Deceit at HAC and FBCH, and we got off on a Jim Vineyard trail. I'm giving him his own thread, but I want this thread to be honest. If someone has something good to say about the world's largest church bus ministry, I would like that person to be treated with respect.

Now I'm going to explain how the trick was performed:

Jim Vineyard never built a big bus route. Dan Taylor explains that Jim even took a bunch of HAC students with him to north Chicago and they came back empty-handed. Jim's ability was "motivation," by means that were Godly, sinful, in the flesh, from the wisdom of God, or whatever, but he himself couldn't do it. Jim could get us whooping and yelling with enthusiasm, but he himself couldn't do it.

IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO BUILT THE WORLD'S LARGEST CHURCH BUS MINISTRY. Vineyard got paid speaking engagements and did not work anywhere near as hard as the working students who  ran those routes. Vineyard slandered students who were Godlier than himself. He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints. It might have happened, but in his entire time at HAC, and during my entire time at OBC, I do not recall Jim ever having a convert from visitation. Jim couldn't do it. IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO DID IT.

And yet you worked for him after leaving HAC.

Exactly my question as well

Even though I learned alot of good things I will never go back for good. Only to visit my family from time to time.

 

[Vince Massi]

You have to realize that I had been raised Catholic and had been saved for less than three years when I entered the opening class at HAC, with a very clear call from God to be there. Jim would have everybody whooping and yelling when he preached. He told fantastic "Man of God" stories with himself in the starring role. He told how he had been captured by the Soviets on a CIA spy mission, and of how he led a mission into North Vietnam itself. EVERYBODY thought he was fantastic.

I was surrounded by hundreds of Godly students who thought Jim was fantastic. I kept thinking that there had to be some mistake. Maybe Jim didn't understand how serious the problem was. Maybe he was mentally ill (which I am convinced of after working for him). Maybe Satan was attacking him so furiously that it wasn't his fault.

Because we were not allowed to criticize, I had to ignore the Biblical teachings about having a multitude of counselors. And I did believe in easy believism. And Jim really could keep a crowd of thousands of children under control when he preached.

Jack continued to preach fantastic sermons, and I continued to grow as a result. My bus route and Sunday School classes were all going well.

So I stayed.

 

[RAIDER]

You have to realize that I had been raised Catholic and had been saved for less than three years when I entered the opening class at HAC, with a very clear call from God to be there. Jim would have everybody whooping and yelling when he preached. He told fantastic "Man of God" stories with himself in the starring role. He told how he had been captured by the Soviets on a CIA spy mission, and of how he led a mission into North Vietnam itself. EVERYBODY thought he was fantastic.

I was surrounded by hundreds of Godly students who thought Jim was fantastic. I kept thinking that there had to be some mistake. Maybe Jim didn't understand how serious the problem was. Maybe he was mentally ill (which I am convinced of after working for him). Maybe Satan was attacking him so furiously that it wasn't his fault.

Because we were not allowed to criticize, I had to ignore the Biblical teachings about having a multitude of counselors. And I did believe in easy believism. And Jim really could keep a crowd of thousands of children under control when he preached.

Jack continued to preach fantastic sermons, and I continued to grow as a result. My bus route and Sunday School classes were all going well.

So I stayed.

If you knew there was a problem, why did you go work for him after HAC?

 

[IFB X-Files]

If you knew there was a problem, why did you go work for him after HAC?

I think you are being ignored.  :-\

 

[Babar]

Okay, I am writing a thread about the Deceit at HAC and FBCH, and we got off on a Jim Vineyard trail. I'm giving him his own thread, but I want this thread to be honest. If someone has something good to say about the world's largest church bus ministry, I would like that person to be treated with respect.

Now I'm going to explain how the trick was performed:

Jim Vineyard never built a big bus route. Dan Taylor explains that Jim even took a bunch of HAC students with him to north Chicago and they came back empty-handed. Jim's ability was "motivation," by means that were Godly, sinful, in the flesh, from the wisdom of God, or whatever, but he himself couldn't do it. Jim could get us whooping and yelling with enthusiasm, but he himself couldn't do it.

IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO BUILT THE WORLD'S LARGEST CHURCH BUS MINISTRY. Vineyard got paid speaking engagements and did not work anywhere near as hard as the working students who  ran those routes. Vineyard slandered students who were Godlier than himself. He was a violent criminal who protected and supported violent crime. He was a bald-faced liar and a hater of the saints. It might have happened, but in his entire time at HAC, and during my entire time at OBC, I do not recall Jim ever having a convert from visitation. Jim couldn't do it. IT WAS THE STUDENTS WHO DID IT.

Vince, you are making some of the same mistakes again.  You simply cannot believe everything Dan Taylor says, anymore than you could trust Jim Vineyard.

By the way, Dan told me that Bro. Hyles began wearing a hat after Dan did.  He is a legend in his own mind.

 

[Vince Massi]

Raider, Old Buddy, I am not Ignoring you. You're asking a legitimate, intelligent question: Why did I go work for Jim when I knew all this stuff?

1) God told me to, and the results proved it.
2) I didn't know all this stuff. I couldn't figure out how it was possible for such a dynamic Man of God to support so much sin. Four decades ago, I wasn't able to explain how the trick was performed.

 

[16KJV11]

Raider, Old Buddy, I am not Ignoring you. You're asking a legitimate, intelligent question: Why did I go work for Jim when I knew all this stuff?

1) God told me to, and the results proved it.
2) I didn't know all this stuff. I couldn't figure out how it was possible for such a dynamic Man of God to support so much sin. Four decades ago, I wasn't able to explain how the trick was performed.

Vince old buddy, you are neurotic...

 

[Just me]

Raider, Old Buddy, I am not Ignoring you. You're asking a legitimate, intelligent question: Why did I go work for Jim when I knew all this stuff?

1) God told me to, and the results proved it.
2) I didn't know all this stuff. I couldn't figure out how it was possible for such a dynamic Man of God to support so much sin. Four decades ago, I wasn't able to explain how the trick was performed.

Shoot Vince I thought you "got reconciled to Jim. God clearly told me that Jim was going to ask me to work for him, and he did. And hang onto your seatbelts, Folks. I quit on Vineyard on good terms, and he gave me a recommendation"

What is all this I could not figure it out stuff?

 

[Bravo]

[quote author=Vince Massi link]
So I stayed.
[/quote]

Um,... That's the thing tho,... You didn't "stay" after you saw a problem, you saw a problem, left HAC to go work for a man you suspected of being problematic,... Doesn't make sense.

 

[Vince Massi]

I had gotten reconciled to Jim. Later, he was forced out of HAC. Later, I graduated from HAC. Later, I went to a conference where he was preaching.

We talked friendly, and he asked me to come to Oklahoma and teach high school for him. It was his idea, not mine, although God had already told me that he would make the offer and I was to accept. There, he promoted me (without asking) to college teacher and assistant pastor.

God blessed me in Oklahoma and I got solid results.

And now I'm going to make a helpful but critical statement. A few of you have a major problem with forgiveness. Jim wronged me grievously and it was a major offense. But God really did give me the grace to forgive him.

 

[IFB X-Files]

And now I'm going to make a helpful but critical statement. A few of you have a major problem with forgiveness.

Uh...didn't YOU start a thread entitled DECEIT?

 

[Just me]

I had gotten reconciled to Jim. Later, he was forced out of HAC. Later, I graduated from HAC. Later, I went to a conference where he was preaching.

We talked friendly, and he asked me to come to Oklahoma and teach high school for him. It was his idea, not mine, although God had already told me that he would make the offer and I was to accept. There, he promoted me (without asking) to college teacher and assistant pastor.

God blessed me in Oklahoma and I got solid results.

And now I'm going to make a helpful but critical statement. A few of you have a major problem with forgiveness. Jim wronged me grievously and it was a major offense. But God really did give me the grace to forgive him.

I said it to you before and  I will say it again. No one ever is "reconciled" to Jim Vineyard.  You kiss his backside and he will let you back in his good graces, period.  (And you know that to be true as you saw how it was when you worked for him at WHBC/OBC)  Further proof is in the conference that you ran in to him at.  You said he talked friendly to you. Of course he did, you already had kissed his ring and he knew he had you under his thumb.  That is how he rolls.

Next, did Jim Vineyard ever change from how he was at Hammond to when he got to WHBC/OBC?  Of course not, you have said so in your other posts about JAV.  You just had learned how to be what you are complaining about, decietful, in your dealings with JAV. 

Again, I am not your enemy but be honest here sir about the man you now freely run down.

 

[Vince Massi]

JustMe, you're raising some valid points. But Jim wronged so many people, in so many places, over such a long period of time, that there have to be differences. His victims have different strengths and weaknesses, different abilities, different backgrounds, etc. Not all of them will have the same work of grace from God in dealing with him. All of his victims have to forgive him, but not all of us are forgiving him for the same things.

Years ago, another FFF had a lot of posts from Jim's victims. It probably helped them to realize that they were not alone. But they had a varied set of grievances that required more than one cure.

You grew up in Jim's church; I did not. You were a child and I was an adult. You couldn't leave, and I could. God did not deal with us the same way.

 

[Just me]

JustMe, you're raising some valid points. But Jim wronged so many people, in so many places, over such a long period of time, that there have to be differences. His victims have different strengths and weaknesses, different abilities, different backgrounds, etc. Not all of them will have the same work of grace from God in dealing with him. All of his victims have to forgive him, but not all of us are forgiving him for the same things.

Years ago, another FFF had a lot of posts from Jim's victims. It probably helped them to realize that they were not alone. But they had a varied set of grievances that required more than one cure.

You grew up in Jim's church; I did not. You were a child and I was an adult. You couldn't leave, and I could. God did not deal with us the same way.

True statements about JAV wronging so many people over the years.  He has left a trail of hurt Christians everywhere he has been.

Vince, you have me mistaken for JustABigKid.  I did not grow up at WHBC but I did spent enough time there to have learned the place every well. But I was an adult when I arrived.

Vince just be consistant in your postings.  Others have also mentioned the inconsistencies.  I believe 16KJV11 even called you neurotic. 

 

[Babar]

I had gotten reconciled to Jim. Later, he was forced out of HAC. Later, I graduated from HAC. Later, I went to a conference where he was preaching.

We talked friendly, and he asked me to come to Oklahoma and teach high school for him. It was his idea, not mine, although God had already told me that he would make the offer and I was to accept. There, he promoted me (without asking) to college teacher and assistant pastor.

God blessed me in Oklahoma and I got solid results.

And now I'm going to make a helpful but critical statement. A few of you have a major problem with forgiveness. Jim wronged me grievously and it was a major offense. But God really did give me the grace to forgive him.

Forgiving and forgetting are two different things.  My guess is that JV rarely thinks about the things that are very vivid in your mind.