Jack Schapp books

[prophet]

Maybe this would help clear the air.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-jack-schaap-sentencing-memorandum-20130314,0,4467793.htmlpage

It should be required reading before reading any of Jack Schaap's books. 

All that time he had to spend counseling with her.....and to think in my darkest hours of despair, all he could do for me was open his office door and say, "You have three minutes, so hurry up". The next meeting he had his staff lie and say he was out of town when I knew he was not as he had passed me Indianapolis Blvd. The next meeting he cursed me out using the "F" word and a few other choice 4 letter words and then jerked open his door to a hallway full of folks and yelled, "Don't come back until you get right with God".

I told 4 people and all of them told me to stop lying and attacking God's man. A few months back , 1 of those people told me that type of languag, which he often used in his angry tirades to staff, got him labeled as "the Bobby Knight" of fundamentalism. Still no apology from him for calling me a liar and attacking God's man.

It is really quite sad as there was a time, I would have done anything the man told me to do. I loved him and was a loyal friend. That love and loyalty was not reciprocated. Because of his actions, I have never been able to totally give my heart to a pastor since. But in time, it was the greatest blessing. It has caused me to cling to Christ with every bit of strength I have.

Thank God,  this is the reaction we all should have.
I have spent hours daily,  for years now,  going over every word in the Scripture,  searching if the things that we heard were so. 

The confirmation of it all comes from the almost weekly communique which is sent my way,  from someone that I led to the Lord,  or taught,  in the last 20 years,  with a testimony of their relationship with the Lord,  and their outreach to others,  or of the mesa on which their family now dwells.

It seems that God is always looking for an"outcast"  to confound the mighty,  noble,  and swift.

Anyway, I praise God for your testimony of drawing you to Himself.
Hopefully,  you and I will get to sit down to a meal sometime,  and catch up,  my friend.



Anishinaabe

 

[brainisengaged]

My problem is that it is very difficult, almost impossible, to dis-indoctrinate oneself when one is constantly being re-indoctrinated. In other words...since the whole scandal broke, I realized I had been caught up in a system of man-worship (much as I would have denied it back then). Subsequently I began to wonder what was Bible Truth as opposed man-made tradition. I want to cling fast to that which is True, and discard that which not. But I continue to go to the very church that has so confused me, and I find it nearly impossible to separate Truth from non-truth. The pressure each week is so obvious to me: Believe what we believe, do what we say, act how we act, or you are not pleasing to God. The adopted theme for the new year is To Please Him.

Now I am NOT for displeasing God. Don't get me wrong. I just wonder about the image I get of a God up in Heaven, keeping score as to whether or not I've pleased Him enough today?

I don't want to dismiss everything as being false teaching, as surely there is truth mixed up in all of it. But more and more I wonder about this intense pressure to perform for God or He is not pleased. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I need some way to sort things out and it isn't happening.

 

[sword]

My problem is that it is very difficult, almost impossible, to dis-indoctrinate oneself when one is constantly being re-indoctrinated. In other words...since the whole scandal broke, I realized I had been caught up in a system of man-worship (much as I would have denied it back then). Subsequently I began to wonder what was Bible Truth as opposed man-made tradition. I want to cling fast to that which is True, and discard that which not. But I continue to go to the very church that has so confused me, and I find it nearly impossible to separate Truth from non-truth. The pressure each week is so obvious to me: Believe what we believe, do what we say, act how we act, or you are not pleasing to God. The adopted theme for the new year is To Please Him.

Now I am NOT for displeasing God. Don't get me wrong. I just wonder about the image I get of a God up in Heaven, keeping score as to whether or not I've pleased Him enough today?

I don't want to dismiss everything as being false teaching, as surely there is truth mixed up in all of it. But more and more I wonder about this intense pressure to perform for God or He is not pleased. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I need some way to sort things out and it isn't happening.

I do not in any way want to encourage or discourage someone from leaving the church God has placed them in. That is the job of the holy spirit not man. That being said if you are so conflicted and have so many questions & doubt, why do you stay? Why did so many others stay so long when they clearly felt FBC was not the best place for their families?  Is it tradition, heritage, comfort, fear. What makes someone stay in a church they clearly dont agree with?

 

[brainisengaged]

If you use your imagination, there can be reasons someone has to stay at a church with which they are not sure they are in agreement. Marriage, being the biggest reason. Having a spouse that is more invested and less questioning. Not wanting that spouse to look forsaken (as in, if I just stopped going). Not wanting to go to a different church than my spouse. (Which would be awkward, and would also be an issue with transportation. Not to mention there would be a 'honeymoon' phase with any new church at this point, I believe, and then I could not be sure it would be the right decision for quite some time). Not wanting to abandon church altogether because in my heart, I fully do believe a Christian goes to church. Then there is also the nagging feeling, "How can everyone else be wrong and I alone be right? I must be wrong, and everyone else is right. So why can't I get with the program?"

There are reasons, and one feels trapped.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

My problem is that it is very difficult, almost impossible, to dis-indoctrinate oneself when one is constantly being re-indoctrinated. In other words...since the whole scandal broke, I realized I had been caught up in a system of man-worship (much as I would have denied it back then). Subsequently I began to wonder what was Bible Truth as opposed man-made tradition. I want to cling fast to that which is True, and discard that which not. But I continue to go to the very church that has so confused me, and I find it nearly impossible to separate Truth from non-truth. The pressure each week is so obvious to me: Believe what we believe, do what we say, act how we act, or you are not pleasing to God. The adopted theme for the new year is To Please Him.

Now I am NOT for displeasing God. Don't get me wrong. I just wonder about the image I get of a God up in Heaven, keeping score as to whether or not I've pleased Him enough today?

I don't want to dismiss everything as being false teaching, as surely there is truth mixed up in all of it. But more and more I wonder about this intense pressure to perform for God or He is not pleased. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I need some way to sort things out and it isn't happening.

Grace for salvation is not earned - it is freely given.
Grace for living the Christian life is not earned by my good effort to please God - it is freely given.
I cannot disappoint God.  Disappointment involves a false expectation and God cannot have a false expectation, or else He is no longer God.

There is a line between a carnal life and a yielded life - a relationship with Christ, fulfilling our purpose and living for self.

Try reading Andrew Murray "Abide in Christ."  It is free in Google Play.

 

[brainisengaged]

Will look it up, Binaca Chugger.

To those who read this and attend FBC Hammond. I really want your impression. Is Pastor W starting to change? Or is it just me?

Is he away more than we thought he would be? Is he taking on the role of the leader of the IFB movement?

Is he making subtle remarks that show his attitude about women? When he announced the Women's Conference (which is supposedly mainly for our ladies, yet we have to register and pay and other ladies from other churches are of course coming because they want to come and enjoy what we have to offer) -- he said that if the ladies do not attend, they are part of the problem and not part of the solution, and he seemed angry when he was saying this. Kind of a turn-off. There was some derogatory comment made yesterday to the ladies as well, made in an offhand way but it was there.

I just sense subtle changes and I wonder if the place is doomed to change him, or if the real him is starting to show? Or if I am imagining all of this!

 

[Fresh Air]

I cannot disappoint God.  Disappointment involves a false expectation and God cannot have a false expectation, or else He is no longer God.

Aside from your tortured semantics, the question isn't can you disappoint God. The question is, can you, as a child of God, displease God?

Answer that question scripturally and then get back to me about how everything we do as saved people is always pleasing to God automatically. Such a position is completely unscriptural and nonsensical.

 

[16KJV11]

I cannot disappoint God.  Disappointment involves a false expectation and God cannot have a false expectation, or else He is no longer God.

Aside from your tortured semantics, the question isn't can you disappoint God. The question is, can you, as a child of God, displease God?

Answer that question scripturally and then get back to me about how everything we do as saved people is always pleasing to God automatically. Such a position is completely unscriptural and nonsensical.

Colossians 1:10 (KJV)
10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:20 (KJV)
20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 2:4 (KJV)
4  But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

1 John 3:22 (KJV)
22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Even Jesus did those things which 'pleased' His Father.
John 8:29 (KJV)
29  And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Romans 8:8 (KJV)
8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


1 Corinthians 7:32 (KJV)
32  But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (KJV)
1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2 Timothy 2:4 (KJV)
4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I know, I know, I'm simply misinterpreting these Scriptures that plainly say that we can please or displease God.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Will look it up, Binaca Chugger.

To those who read this and attend FBC Hammond. I really want your impression. Is Pastor W starting to change? Or is it just me?

Is he away more than we thought he would be? Is he taking on the role of the leader of the IFB movement?

Is he making subtle remarks that show his attitude about women? When he announced the Women's Conference (which is supposedly mainly for our ladies, yet we have to register and pay and other ladies from other churches are of course coming because they want to come and enjoy what we have to offer) -- he said that if the ladies do not attend, they are part of the problem and not part of the solution, and he seemed angry when he was saying this. Kind of a turn-off. There was some derogatory comment made yesterday to the ladies as well, made in an offhand way but it was there.

I just sense subtle changes and I wonder if the place is doomed to change him, or if the real him is starting to show? Or if I am imagining all of this!

When he first arrived he took steps to show that he was against the MOG philosophy.

He practiced behaving as a servant not a lord.

Many pastors presume to tell you what the LORD is saying even when it is clearly only their own

opinion or interpretation of some scripture clawed and twisted from the context.

An example would be saying that Psa. 12:7 means the bible will be preserved when the context of

the passage clearly indicates it is the Godly that will be preserved and the KJV1611 translators note

indicates the the Heb word means him and not them. KJVOs hoisted on their own petard.


I fear that our culture is starting to change him. I fear our giving of gifts and honors may go to his

head.

 

[bgwilkinson]

When he first arrived he took steps to show that he was against the MOG philosophy.

He practiced behaving as a servant not a lord.

Many pastors presume to tell you what the LORD is saying even when it is clearly only their own opinion

or interpretation of some scripture clawed and twisted from the context.

An example would be saying that Psa. 12:7 means the bible will be preserved when the context of the

passage clearly indicates it is the Godly that will be preserved.


I fear that our culture is starting to change him. I fear our giving of gifts and honors may go to his head.

Let me understand this ... You are still there but you do not believe the KIng James Bible is the Word of God ...

I am not sure what you are asking.

I believe that all translations made by capable translators are the Word of God as well as contain the Word of

God, as Miles Smith stated in TTR.

These would include but not be limited to the LXX, the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac Peshitta, Geneva, Bishops,

NASB, NKJV, NET, Gustav Vasa 1540, Luthers 1541, etc.  You get the picture.

The KJV is certainly a valid translation. I just love the tradition and history associated with it.

It is not the only valid English translation or even the best English translation now or in 1611.


It is the Bible we use in our Church for liturgical purposes to promote unity and eliminate confusion

during liturgical readings as it is the Bible of the Church of England keeping with our Baptist Anglican

Heritage.

 

[bgwilkinson]

When he first arrived he took steps to show that he was against the MOG philosophy.

He practiced behaving as a servant not a lord.

Many pastors presume to tell you what the LORD is saying even when it is clearly only their own opinion

or interpretation of some scripture clawed and twisted from the context.

An example would be saying that Psa. 12:7 means the bible will be preserved when the context of the

passage clearly indicates it is the Godly that will be preserved.


I fear that our culture is starting to change him. I fear our giving of gifts and honors may go to his head.

Let me understand this ... You are still there but you do not believe the King James Bible is the Word of God ...

Perhaps you have never seen an authentic unmutilated KJV1611.

Here is the page in an original KJV1611 open to Psa. 12. See the note Hebr.him.i.every one of them, on verse 7.

http://sceti.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=651

 

[Fresh Air]

Colossians 1:10 (KJV)
10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:20 (KJV)
20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 2:4 (KJV)
4  But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

1 John 3:22 (KJV)
22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Even Jesus did those things which 'pleased' His Father.
John 8:29 (KJV)
29  And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Romans 8:8 (KJV)
8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


1 Corinthians 7:32 (KJV)
32  But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (KJV)
1  Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

2 Timothy 2:4 (KJV)
4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I know, I know, I'm simply misinterpreting these Scriptures that plainly say that we can please or displease God.

...my point exactly. I've got an entire sermon about this somewhere. I should hunt it up and post it just for the pleasure (oops, can I use that word? after all, pleasure is pleasing) of watching people pull muscles doing verbal gymnastics in order to get around it. =)

 

[bgwilkinson]

When he first arrived he took steps to show that he was against the MOG philosophy.

He practiced behaving as a servant not a lord.

Many pastors presume to tell you what the LORD is saying even when it is clearly only their own opinion

or interpretation of some scripture clawed and twisted from the context.

An example would be saying that Psa. 12:7 means the bible will be preserved when the context of the

passage clearly indicates it is the Godly that will be preserved.


I fear that our culture is starting to change him. I fear our giving of gifts and honors may go to his head.

Let me understand this ... You are still there but you do not believe the King James Bible is the Word of God ...

You answered my question here ... Below

Of course I did stay at FBC during all the goings on the last 40+ years and I was there yesterday.

I take it, you and your Pastor are not on the same page concerning the Word of God (King James Bible).

Well you would be wrong.

Before he could become pastor he had to subscribe to our statement of faith to which I also subscribe.

All FBCH members are expected to subscribe to this statement of faith.

That means we are 100% in agreement with this statement on the Bible.

I quote:

"Scripture
We believe the Word of God as found in the sixty-six (66) books from Genesis to Revelation is infallible and inerrant and perfect;1 it is the plenary and verbally inspired2 words of God to men.3 We believe God has also preserved every single word4 through the ages.

1 Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5; 2 II Timothy 3:16; II Peter 1:21; 3 Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; 4 Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 5:18; Matthew 24:35; I Peter 1:25.

God has divinely preserved His words for English-speaking people in the King James Version. The King James Version is the translation used in any and all ministries of First Baptist Church for English-speaking people. "


You can find our complete statement of faith on the HAC web site here:

http://hylesanderson.edu/about/beliefs/



Well. What do you think? Do you seem to pick up that I don't believe that?

As I have stated elsewhere we have specified the KJV as the translation used to primarily unify the

English liturgy used in all areas of our church.


Each believer is free to have additional opinions such as they prefer to only use the KJV or they

might like to use the NASB. It is up to them. We do not meddle in their choice of translation.


In our schools we teach the major Bible languages of the centuries. Latin is taught in the grade

school. Greek is taught in the Jr. high and Hebrew is taught in the high school.


When the kids know the Bible languages it is very difficult for the heresy of KJVO to be taught and

take root. When you read the Bible languages KJVO just sounds silly.

 

[BALAAM]

Maybe this would help clear the air.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-jack-schaap-sentencing-memorandum-20130314,0,4467793.htmlpage

It should be required reading before reading any of Jack Schaap's books. 

All that time he had to spend counseling with her.....and to think in my darkest hours of despair, all he could do for me was open his office door and say, "You have three minutes, so hurry up". The next meeting he had his staff lie and say he was out of town when I knew he was not as he had passed me Indianapolis Blvd. The next meeting he cursed me out using the "F" word and a few other choice 4 letter words and then jerked open his door to a hallway full of folks and yelled, "Don't come back until you get right with God".

I told 4 people and all of them told me to stop lying and attacking God's man. A few months back , 1 of those people told me that type of languag, which he often used in his angry tirades to staff, got him labeled as "the Bobby Knight" of fundamentalism. Still no apology from him for calling me a liar and attacking God's man.

It is really quite sad as there was a time, I would have done anything the man told me to do. I loved him and was a loyal friend. That love and loyalty was not reciprocated. Because of his actions, I have never been able to totally give my heart to a pastor since. But in time, it was the greatest blessing. It has caused me to cling to Christ with every bit of strength I have.

Yup! That was the JS that I knew also!

 

[Bravo]

To those who read this and attend FBC Hammond. I really want your impression. Is Pastor W starting to change? Or is it just me?

Is he away more than we thought he would be? Is he taking on the role of the leader of the IFB movement?

Wow. I am here and it is hard to say. The services are getting longer, any real problem with this, not really but it was an ear mark of Schaap's services so it red flags me. To be honest we just started going back on Sunday PM. Last couple of weeks,... His family was honored and given gifts during the service. Services start at 6, he started speaking about 7:20 or so. Last night he started speaking about 6:50. All the prelim stuff is annoying. One guy greets the crowd, one guy announces the "push du jour" theme. Some guy (all white guys) tells how he successfully raised his family. So much special music. Then whatever special meetings are pushed. Then a special, then the scripture reading then another special, then the sermon.

I've not heard any negative about him personally but I do hear that some people are not connecting with him. After all the man worship maybe we find it hard to connect to a regular guy.

I have no interest in all the extra meetings going on anymore. For instance soon there will be a Wed - Fri series of meetings. I am not even considering it. I am not sure what that says about me.

Yes he is gone more than I thought he would be, at first it was because he already made commitments prior to coming here, I don't know if that's still the case.