If not for Dave Hyles.............

[prophet]

It's so easy to stand in hindsight and see what could have been done differently.  The thing is...what if he HAD made a different choice?  We don't know what the outcome of that would have been. Maybe it would have been worse than what actually happened. 

My brain is tired from trying to wrap it around all this...haha!  Maybe that's what Philippians 3:13 means about forgetting those things which are behind.  Who knows.  Not me. I went to Hyles-Anderson...I'm no Bible scholar.  (giggle)

That's because Mr Minas was demonized and people shunned him. I'm sure if anyone would have stopped by his office he would have gladly talked with them.

My parents purposely shopped at Minas, which had superior goods, to show goodwill to our fellow Christians.
And we parked for free for years...

 

[prophet]

It's so easy to stand in hindsight and see what could have been done differently.  The thing is...what if he HAD made a different choice?  We don't know what the outcome of that would have been. Maybe it would have been worse than what actually happened. 

My brain is tired from trying to wrap it around all this...haha!  Maybe that's what Philippians 3:13 means about forgetting those things which are behind.  Who knows.  Not me. I went to Hyles-Anderson...I'm no Bible scholar.  (giggle)

That's because Mr Minas was demonized and people shunned him. I'm sure if anyone would have stopped by his office he would have gladly talked with them.

My parents purposely shopped at Minas, which had superior goods, to show goodwill to our fellow Christians.
And we parked for free for years...
Of course, we actually lived in Hammond.

 

[bgwilkinson]

It's so easy to stand in hindsight and see what could have been done differently.  The thing is...what if he HAD made a different choice?  We don't know what the outcome of that would have been. Maybe it would have been worse than what actually happened. 

My brain is tired from trying to wrap it around all this...haha!  Maybe that's what Philippians 3:13 means about forgetting those things which are behind.  Who knows.  Not me. I went to Hyles-Anderson...I'm no Bible scholar.  (giggle)

That's because Mr Minas was demonized and people shunned him. I'm sure if anyone would have stopped by his office he would have gladly talked with them.

BG, if this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

If this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

One man or a group would not cause me to leave a church where I believed God wanted me to be.

Short history on me.
I always gave Bro. Hyles the benefit of the doubt, probably much more than was prudent.

He was a hero to me since the first few times I heard him preach at Miller Road.  My parents traveled through Dallas several times a year on the way to and back from south TX where they worked at establishing churches just across the Rio Grande in Mexico.

We traveled from Minnesota to South Texas going through Wheaton, Chicago and Dallas many times.

We  would stop at Hammond whenever we went through on a Wednesday or a weekend.

To me there was always a connection between Hammond and Dallas. Still have relatives in Dallas.

We would hear Bro. Miller in Hammond and Bro. Hyles at Miller Road in Dallas.

You have no doubt heard Bro. Hyles tell about why he came to Hammond and it may be true, but there is another reason he came to Hammond. That reason was to be with his new friend John R. Rice.

It was John Rice that talked him into coming to Hammond.

Bro. Rice had his headquarters in Wheaton where we would load up on tracts and books for distribution in the work. Wheaton is only about an hour from Hammond. Bro. Rice had decided to launch Bro. Hyles into a nation wide ministry, through preaching at Sword Conferences and working as an editor at the Sword in Wheaton, because of the perceived liberalism of his first national protege Billy Graham.

Billy Graham and Bro. Rice both came to Wheaton in 1940, Billy Graham as a young student at Wheaton College and Bro. Rice as the Editor of the Famous Sword of the Lord.

Both shared a love for soul-winning and evangelism. Bro. Rice was Billy Graham's mentor and promoter onto the national stage by publishing his sermons in the Sword as well as having him speak at National Sword of the Lord conferences. All was well until the early 50s when Billy Graham began to have massive national crusades where millions attended and 10s of thousands were saved. By about 1957 the division over separation was open to all and they went their separate ways. This was where Bro. Rice begin to launch Bro. Hyles onto the national stage the same way he launched Billy Graham.

Thus protege number two and number last was launched into the world of national fundamentalism.

This was a round about way to explain why I am still at FBCH and have never left. Over these many years many mistakes were made. Mean vitriolic language was used by hard preaching fundamentalists and we are just now realizing the heavy price we are paying for not following the LORD in loving one another.

Why would anyone want to be a Christian in light of the way hyper-fundamentalists treat fellow Christians?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What happened to obeying Jesus rather than man?

It goes without saying, my family has continued to grow over the years, they all attend FBCH, so that also would tend to make me stay put.

This is how I see it, it's my humble opinion.

 

[16KJV11]

It's so easy to stand in hindsight and see what could have been done differently.  The thing is...what if he HAD made a different choice?  We don't know what the outcome of that would have been. Maybe it would have been worse than what actually happened. 

My brain is tired from trying to wrap it around all this...haha!  Maybe that's what Philippians 3:13 means about forgetting those things which are behind.  Who knows.  Not me. I went to Hyles-Anderson...I'm no Bible scholar.  (giggle)

That's because Mr Minas was demonized and people shunned him. I'm sure if anyone would have stopped by his office he would have gladly talked with them.

BG, if this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

If this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

One man or a group would not cause me to leave a church where I believed God wanted me to be.

Short history on me.
I always gave Bro. Hyles the benefit of the doubt, probably much more than was prudent.

He was a hero to me since the first few times I heard him preach at Miller Road.  My parents traveled through Dallas several times a year on the way to and back from south TX where they worked at establishing churches just across the Rio Grande in Mexico.

We traveled from Minnesota to South Texas going through Wheaton, Chicago and Dallas many times.

We  would stop at Hammond whenever we went through on a Wednesday or a weekend.

To me there was always a connection between Hammond and Dallas. Still have relatives in Dallas.

We would hear Bro. Miller in Hammond and Bro. Hyles at Miller Road in Dallas.

You have no doubt heard Bro. Hyles tell about why he came to Hammond and it may be true, but there is another reason he came to Hammond. That reason was to be with his new friend John R. Rice.

It was John Rice that talked him into coming to Hammond.

Bro. Rice had his headquarters in Wheaton where we would load up on tracts and books for distribution in the work. Wheaton is only about an hour from Hammond. Bro. Rice had decided to launch Bro. Hyles into a nation wide ministry, through preaching at Sword Conferences and working as an editor at the Sword in Wheaton, because of the perceived liberalism of his first national protege Billy Graham.

Billy Graham and Bro. Rice both came to Wheaton in 1940, Billy Graham as a young student at Wheaton College and Bro. Rice as the Editor of the Famous Sword of the Lord.

Both shared a love for soul-winning and evangelism. Bro. Rice was Billy Graham's mentor and promoter onto the national stage by publishing his sermons in the Sword as well as having him speak at National Sword of the Lord conferences. All was well until the early 50s when Billy Graham began to have massive national crusades where millions attended and 10s of thousands were saved. By about 1957 the division over separation was open to all and they went their separate ways. This was where Bro. Rice begin to launch Bro. Hyles onto the national stage the same way he launched Billy Graham.

Thus protege number two and number last was launched into the world of national fundamentalism.

This was a round about way to explain why I am still at FBCH and have never left. Over these many years many mistakes were made. Mean vitriolic language was used by hard preaching fundamentalists and we are just now realizing the heavy price we are paying for not following the LORD in loving one another.

Why would anyone want to be a Christian in light of the way hyper-fundamentalists treat fellow Christians?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What happened to obeying Jesus rather than man?

It goes without saying, my family has continued to grow over the years, they all attend FBCH, so that also would tend to make me stay put.

This is how I see it, it's my humble opinion.

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

 

[Bravo]

I can't speak for BG,... But here is my take on it, respectfully of course

I don't see his posts as bitter. Yes he disagrees now but it seems like it must have been a slow awakening over time. Yes a Red Flag goes up, but then you talk yourself out of it and then one day you realize there were several Red Flags along the way. Even in college we were subjected to a "us against the world" mentality, and in honesty that does tend to make you give the institution the benefit of the doubt. Then years later it all adds up in retrospect. The recent Schaap thing made a lot of people look back and see things differently.

But even we HACkers disagree with things that went on at the college,... Does that make us bitter.

 

[Fresh Air]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

 

[Fresh Air]

I can't speak for BG,... But here is my take on it, respectfully of course

I don't see his posts as bitter. Yes he disagrees now but it seems like it must have been a slow awakening over time. Yes a Red Flag goes up, but then you talk yourself out of it and then one day you realize there were several Red Flags along the way. Even in college we were subjected to a "us against the world" mentality, and in honesty that does tend to make you give the institution the benefit of the doubt. Then years later it all adds up in retrospect. The recent Schaap thing made a lot of people look back and see things differently.

But even we HACkers disagree with things that went on at the college,... Does that make us bitter.

...and I think this is also a reasonable answer. It is a different answer than mine but just as reasonable.

 

[16KJV11]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

 

[Norefund]

16KJV11,

I don't know BG at all (or you, for that matter), but my perception is quite different than your observation. While he often posts confirmations of wrongdoing at FBC/HAC and the resulting frustrations, he often follows up with what he perceives as improvements that are in progress. His posts acknowledge the darkness but contain optimistic insights into the changes being made. I think this is healthy for FBC/HAC as they need some members who will say "Not again" and mean it. I don't think he comes across as bitter.

I am a pretty harsh critic of FBC/HAC and I left pretty early on when I reached adulthood. Even so, I don't hold it against anyone who stayed. I may not understand it, but I can't know what their reasoning was. We all make big choices that others may disagree with and we all usually put a great deal of thought into those life changing decisions. Maybe we should try to be understanding of those differences.

It's so easy to stand in hindsight and see what could have been done differently.  The thing is...what if he HAD made a different choice?  We don't know what the outcome of that would have been. Maybe it would have been worse than what actually happened. 

My brain is tired from trying to wrap it around all this...haha!  Maybe that's what Philippians 3:13 means about forgetting those things which are behind.  Who knows.  Not me. I went to Hyles-Anderson...I'm no Bible scholar.  (giggle)

That's because Mr Minas was demonized and people shunned him. I'm sure if anyone would have stopped by his office he would have gladly talked with them.

BG, if this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

If this injustice was done in the way you described it, why did you remain at FBCH?

One man or a group would not cause me to leave a church where I believed God wanted me to be.

Short history on me.
I always gave Bro. Hyles the benefit of the doubt, probably much more than was prudent.

He was a hero to me since the first few times I heard him preach at Miller Road.  My parents traveled through Dallas several times a year on the way to and back from south TX where they worked at establishing churches just across the Rio Grande in Mexico.

We traveled from Minnesota to South Texas going through Wheaton, Chicago and Dallas many times.

We  would stop at Hammond whenever we went through on a Wednesday or a weekend.

To me there was always a connection between Hammond and Dallas. Still have relatives in Dallas.

We would hear Bro. Miller in Hammond and Bro. Hyles at Miller Road in Dallas.

You have no doubt heard Bro. Hyles tell about why he came to Hammond and it may be true, but there is another reason he came to Hammond. That reason was to be with his new friend John R. Rice.

It was John Rice that talked him into coming to Hammond.

Bro. Rice had his headquarters in Wheaton where we would load up on tracts and books for distribution in the work. Wheaton is only about an hour from Hammond. Bro. Rice had decided to launch Bro. Hyles into a nation wide ministry, through preaching at Sword Conferences and working as an editor at the Sword in Wheaton, because of the perceived liberalism of his first national protege Billy Graham.

Billy Graham and Bro. Rice both came to Wheaton in 1940, Billy Graham as a young student at Wheaton College and Bro. Rice as the Editor of the Famous Sword of the Lord.

Both shared a love for soul-winning and evangelism. Bro. Rice was Billy Graham's mentor and promoter onto the national stage by publishing his sermons in the Sword as well as having him speak at National Sword of the Lord conferences. All was well until the early 50s when Billy Graham began to have massive national crusades where millions attended and 10s of thousands were saved. By about 1957 the division over separation was open to all and they went their separate ways. This was where Bro. Rice begin to launch Bro. Hyles onto the national stage the same way he launched Billy Graham.

Thus protege number two and number last was launched into the world of national fundamentalism.

This was a round about way to explain why I am still at FBCH and have never left. Over these many years many mistakes were made. Mean vitriolic language was used by hard preaching fundamentalists and we are just now realizing the heavy price we are paying for not following the LORD in loving one another.

Why would anyone want to be a Christian in light of the way hyper-fundamentalists treat fellow Christians?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What happened to obeying Jesus rather than man?

It goes without saying, my family has continued to grow over the years, they all attend FBCH, so that also would tend to make me stay put.

This is how I see it, it's my humble opinion.

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

 

[Norefund]

I never heard that from the pulpit of FBC, but I did it anyway. It's good advice and I salute you for saying it, even if it may lose you some members.

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

 

[Fresh Air]

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

That's very good. I've got to remember it... Thanks.

 

[Bruh]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

I guess I understand what both 1611 and Tom are saying to an extent.  Tom the man in your church if it is not the majority, yes he should leave.

But 1611 or Tom, what I don't understand is why is it always the people should leave? or It's always the peoples fault.  I completely understand that some people are just idiots or very disgruntled for not reason but that is not always the case.

As I said, why is it always the peoples fault?  I'm not bitter or angry but that's just my take...

For instances, Revelations 2 is written to Pastors but I have ONLY heard it preached to congregations to repent not pastors.  If I understand Revelations 2 correctly the church will cease to be a church because of the pastor not the people it is a rebuke for the pastors not the people.  Again, why is it always the peoples fault? 

Hope I have made since.  Thanks!   

 

[RAIDER]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

Again, I will preface my remarks by saying that I am glad BG is a part of the FFF.  He adds a unique viewpoint.  KJV, I agree with the majority of your post.  It wasn't like BG was at FBCH for a few years and saw a couple of things that bothered him.  He was there for many, many years (including, I believe, being a deacon).  He stays through what he describes now as a long road of wickedness.

BG says, "a man or a group would not cause me to leave a church where I believe God wanted me to be".  So, BG, what you are saying is that God wanted you to stay through all of the wickedness of which you speak.  He wanted you to be on the board of deacons that, through silence, gave their approval to this wickedness.  Now all of a sudden you see the light and you can tell the story of all the wickedness that took place.  You can criticize what took place at FBCH from Dr. Hyles' first day as pastor.

While I find your posts interesting, I cannot follow you hook, line, and sinker. 

 

[brainisengaged]

I can't speak for BG,... But here is my take on it, respectfully of course

I don't see his posts as bitter. Yes he disagrees now but it seems like it must have been a slow awakening over time. Yes a Red Flag goes up, but then you talk yourself out of it and then one day you realize there were several Red Flags along the way.Even in college we were subjected to a "us against the world" mentality, and in honesty that does tend to make you give the institution the benefit of the doubt. Then years later it all adds up in retrospect. The recent Schaap thing made a lot of people look back and see things differently.

But even we HACkers disagree with things that went on at the college,... Does that make us bitter.

I do not know bgwilkinson, but will say that I also do not see his posts as bitter. In fact, it seems to me that Bravo really nailed it. Hence, I gave him a standing o!

Hindsight is 20/20. It is a hard question to ask, "Why did you not leave?"  Like many of us, bgwilkinson is going through the debriefing process. We each go at our own pace. The way he clearly sees and understands something now was not quite so clear then, and all of our own attitudes have changed as well.

For example, I shared the story about having been contacted by a member of the Minas family for business purposes. (recap: Some 15 years ago, a lady called me, was wishing to engage my services. We were having a lovely conversation, she was enthusiastic. It came to the point where I asked her name, for the contract. Her last name was Minas. I exclaimed with delight that I knew that name. She confirmed it was indeed 'that' Minas family. I proudly -the word is chosen deliberately and to my shame- stated that I as a member of First Baptist Church Hammond of course recognize and am familiar with the name. End of story, her tone changed and she never contacted me again to proceed with the business engagement.)

You see, at the time the lady telephoned me, I was still under the VERY FIRM CONVICTION that anyone who leaves First Baptist Church is wrong. They've left the will of God. They've chosen the wrong path. That was the attitude of the entire church from pulpit to pew. We knew we were God's chosen, doing God's mission, and we knew we were the only ones doing it. We knew we had to try our best to teach the rest of the world to do God's mission our way (Pastor's School) but we also knew that really no one but we could do it properly, since we were located in the only right and proper place to be, FBC Hammond.

Even though the Minas family story was from before my time, I knew it. I knew he was one of the evil rich people who didn't want the bus kids and who caused Brother Hyles to have to make that agonizing choice. I thrilled to the rallying cry of, "I'll take the bus kids! I'll take the bus kids!" So, when Miss Minas contacted me that day, and when I proudly declared myself a member of FBC, my inner heart's attitude was to 'stick it to her'. I HAD to mention that was my church, and I HAD to sound just a little superior when I did.

Would I EVER DREAM of being that way now? No. Not a chance. I am bewildered to think how I could have been so brainwashed, but it is definitely getting unwashed bit by bit!

"Church Pride" was a big sin in which many if not most of us were engaged. When bgwilkinson tells us things, he is speaking through the lens of retrospective wisdom. Can't every one of us look back at events from earlier in our life and understand that we were different then? The choices we made, the inclinations we experienced, the understanding we had were all valid for who and what we were then, but can be seen much differently years later.

I also agree with norefund's take..."I don't know BG at all (or you, for that matter), but my perception is quite different than your observation. While he often posts confirmations of wrongdoing at FBC/HAC and the resulting frustrations, he often follows up with what he perceives as improvements that are in progress. His posts acknowledge the darkness but contain optimistic insights into the changes being made. I think this is healthy for FBC/HAC as they need some members who will say "Not again" and mean it. I don't think he comes across as bitter."

bgwilkinson doesn't come across as proud, either. I don't know who he is in real life but his posts that mention his involvement just speak the sincere truth that this is the church of his family and they have roots / connections that are deep and valid.

At any rate, I know I am definitely still debriefing. Pretty sure others are as well. Don't know how long it will take. But everything in retrospect looks quite different from how it looked 'in the moment.'

 

[16KJV11]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

I guess I understand what both 1611 and Tom are saying to an extent.  Tom the man in your church if it is not the majority, yes he should leave.

But 1611 or Tom, what I don't understand is why is it always the people should leave? or It's always the peoples fault.  I completely understand that some people are just idiots or very disgruntled for not reason but that is not always the case.

As I said, why is it always the peoples fault?  I'm not bitter or angry but that's just my take...

For instances, Revelations 2 is written to Pastors but I have ONLY heard it preached to congregations to repent not pastors.  If I understand Revelations 2 correctly the church will cease to be a church because of the pastor not the people it is a rebuke for the pastors not the people.  Again, why is it always the peoples fault? 

Hope I have made since.  Thanks! 

You are absolutely right...It's not always the people's fault, and to be honest, I don't know what the complete solution is...
We don't have a problem like this in my church b/c I have men who are deacons and laymen who will politely tell me when I am screwing up or preach something unscriptural. 
I try to be open to criticism and not harsh with those who give it to me and submissive enough to listen to it.

 

[Bravo]

I have said from the pulpit many times:  If you can't be happy at this church, find somewhere where you can be happy or, pray that God changes what is making you unhappy, or pray that God will change you so you won't be unhappy.  Both parties will be better off for it.

That's very good. I've got to remember it... Thanks.

For sure this is a very pragmatic approach,...  Where does this philosophy end though? Do we then carry this philosophy to its conclusion and counsel people who are married with this same philosophy?

 

[no value]

So, if I understand all the banter in this thread, the original premise seems to suggest that had not Dave Hyles so morally failed that he lost his prize position as Daddy Hyles’ successor, then Jack Schaap would not have ultimately been coronated as Jack’s successor and subsequently morally fallen himself.

If that’s the original argument, I’d like to introduce all the boys and girls on the forum to a brand new word …it’s a big one, but boy, is it important.

Ready?  Here it is-----PROVIDENCE (see I told you it was a big word).

So let’s now incorporate (Oh, I’m sorry to use another big word)…let me change that…So let’s now use the use PROVIDENCE in our discussion.

Here’s a quote from a book I read in college years ago---“The word ‘providence’ has all but disappeared from the vocabulary of the contemporary Christian. it is becoming obsolete and archaic. This word that once was commonplace, indeed central to Christian expression, now seems doomed to the ash head of useful verbiage.”

“The doctrine of providence declares that God’s providential rule extends to all things great and small, from the huge to the minute, the infinite to the infinitesimal.”

So was Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap’s moral failure part of the mysterious PROVIDENCE of God? And if so, who benefited?

 

[Norefund]

That is a completely new and interesting perspective to this thread but I don't think that is what the original poster was asking. I think he was more interested in what the historical legacy of Jack Hyles would have been had their not been the obvious Dave Hyles sinful history. One could also speculate what the legacy of Jack Hyles would have been had the Jack Schaap exposure not happened. Would the reverence for JH continue? It still does in the minds of some at FBC.

So, if I understand all the banter in this thread, the original premise seems to suggest that had not Dave Hyles so morally failed that he lost his prize position as Daddy Hyles’ successor, then Jack Schaap would not have ultimately been coronated as Jack’s successor and subsequently morally fallen himself.

If that’s the original argument, I’d like to introduce all the boys and girls on the forum to a brand new word …it’s a big one, but boy, is it important.

Ready?  Here it is-----PROVIDENCE (see I told you it was a big word).

So let’s now incorporate (Oh, I’m sorry to use another big word)…let me change that…So let’s now use the use PROVIDENCE in our discussion.

Here’s a quote from a book I read in college years ago---“The word ‘providence’ has all but disappeared from the vocabulary of the contemporary Christian. it is becoming obsolete and archaic. This word that once was commonplace, indeed central to Christian expression, now seems doomed to the ash head of useful verbiage.”

“The doctrine of providence declares that God’s providential rule extends to all things great and small, from the huge to the minute, the infinite to the infinitesimal.”

So was Dave Hyles and Jack Schaap’s moral failure part of the mysterious PROVIDENCE of God? And if so, who benefited?

 

[RAIDER]

BG, I understand what you have said and I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, but for the life of me I cannot understand why you would have stayed in an organization that you had such profound distrust & difference of opinion in (in many ways).  You are severely critical of all things FBC, JH and HAC.  If JH, FBC Hammond and HAC so violated scriptural principles as they have been accused of (and you have obviously seen much of this first hand), why would you not leave?  I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts but when He does, He validates Scripture and the principles from the Word of God. 
During this time, when the Holy Spirit was convicting you about all of these issues, wasn't that the leadership of God saying: This is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, get out, get out!
What other leadership do you need?
But you just stayed on and let it make you more and more bitter.
And I do see a lot of bitterness in your life, but I am not sympathetic to your pleas and it's hard for me to give you much credence for the reasons that I have stated above.
Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but you constantly saw the ditch and still stayed on the trail heading towards it.

I have a man in my church that is the longest standing member of our church. He's probably been here about 40 years. He reminds me a lot of BG. He is constantly negative, constantly critical, constantly attacking, etc. The previous pastor before served for 23 years and told me this guy was his single biggest problem. I've served here for 11 years and I have to sadly say the same thing. But he-just-won't-leave... And I think the reason is pride. As I understand the book of Proverbs this man in my church is a scorner, and scorners are motivated by pride. I think this guy who-just-won't-leave won't leave because he is proud of how long he has been here, proud that he has been here longer than anybody, and proud that everybody knows it, and proud that he has stuck it out even though he thinks everything has always been done wrong. He is too proud to leave.

I am NOT saying BG is the same as this guy. I don't have near the sample size/in depth knowledge of BG's life. But that is how/why/what has happened here so I can see how a guy like BG can be so negative for so long and yet stay for decades.

I once attended a church where many of the people did not care for the direction the church was going.  After a time period several families quietly left.  It was not a big group exodus.  There were a couple of families that wanted the pastor gone.  There philosophy was, "This is MY church.  I was here before this preacher got here, and I'll be here when he is gone. I'm not going anywhere but he is".

 

[Tennessean]

You have no doubt heard Bro. Hyles tell about why he came to Hammond and it may be true, but there is another reason he came to Hammond. That reason was to be with his new friend John R. Rice.

It was John Rice that talked him into coming to Hammond.

Bro. Rice had his headquarters in Wheaton where we would load up on tracts and books for distribution in the work. Wheaton is only about an hour from Hammond. Bro. Rice had decided to launch Bro. Hyles into a nation wide ministry, through preaching at Sword Conferences and working as an editor at the Sword in Wheaton, because of the perceived liberalism of his first national protege Billy Graham.

Billy Graham and Bro. Rice both came to Wheaton in 1940, Billy Graham as a young student at Wheaton College and Bro. Rice as the Editor of the Famous Sword of the Lord.

Both shared a love for soul-winning and evangelism. Bro. Rice was Billy Graham's mentor and promoter onto the national stage by publishing his sermons in the Sword as well as having him speak at National Sword of the Lord conferences. All was well until the early 50s when Billy Graham began to have massive national crusades where millions attended and 10s of thousands were saved. By about 1957 the division over separation was open to all and they went their separate ways. This was where Bro. Rice begin to launch Bro. Hyles onto the national stage the same way he launched Billy Graham.

Thus protege number two and number last was launched into the world of national fundamentalism.

This was a round about way to explain why I am still at FBCH and have never left. Over these many years many mistakes were made. Mean vitriolic language was used by hard preaching fundamentalists and we are just now realizing the heavy price we are paying for not following the LORD in loving one another.

Why would anyone want to be a Christian in light of the way hyper-fundamentalists treat fellow Christians?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

What happened to obeying Jesus rather than man?

It goes without saying, my family has continued to grow over the years, they all attend FBCH, so that also would tend to make me stay put.

This is how I see it, it's my humble opinion.
[/quote]

An interesting theory, and one that could be believable.

Question, what evidence do you have to validate this story? private conversations, letters, public statements, etc?

I have recently finished the excellent book edited by Ray Young of Bro. Hyles letters. The reason I found it so good is that it gave a new insight to young Jack Hyles the pastor. I found that as a young pastor he faced the same problems pastoring that I do, he made many of the same mistakes a lot of us do, and yet God used him in a great way.

The correspondence seems to indicate that it was Lee Johnson's regular letters that kept the door open to FBC Hammond for Bro. Hyles. If letters from Dr. Rice to Dr. Hyles exist Ray Young would have them and boy would they be interesting reading. If you are interested in Jack Hyles life Ray Young is sitting on a treasure trove.

Being close to Dr. Rice might have been in the back of his mind but I don't think it was the main reason. Several years later he refused to leave Hammond and go to Tennessee.

Would like to hear your reasons to support the theory, and btw I like hearing your stories, they give a different perspective.