High profile HAC students

[LongGone]

Yes!!
Thank you.

And  I have no clue as to what end all sin means.
Just as you have no clue what I believe.
[/quote]



I read what you posted on this thread.  Isn't that what you believe?

 

[LongGone]

Let's just quit sniping and agree on a few points....

1. Sodomy is a grievous sin before God, listed right above bestiality in Romans 1 as the final descent of mankind into sin. (anyone who says otherwise is intentionally lying.  They may not believe the Bible is God's word, but they cannot deny the Bible clearly labels it an abomination.)
2. People are born with a sin nature because of the fall of man, not because God created us sinners.
3. People are born with different temptations, once again, due to sin nature.
4. Homosexuals are born with the sinful desire to have "sex" within the same gender.  They are not created this way, they are born this way due to sin.
5. Homosexual temptations are no more sinful than heterosexual temptations.  Acting on any sexual sin is wrong.  (I am born wanting to have sex with multiple women simultaneously outside of my marriage.  I don't act on these temptations because they are sinful and contrary to scripture.  I must suppress my sinful sexual desires that I did not "choose" to have.)
6. A person born with homosexual desires should not act on them anymore than a married person should commit adultery.  I was not born wanting to be sexually monogamous, but I have never slept with anyone who was not my wife.  I choose to not act on my temptations.
7. A person who has homosexual desires can choose to not yact on them and can choose to live a life that pleases God.  This has been done for centuries, until society began encouraging people to "be who they are." 
8. Pastors should preach HARD against homosexuality, but not with the intention of hurting others or making church members feel self righteous. 
9. Preaching against heterosexual sins should also be preached hard against, because those are the sins most likely occurring in the church.  Fornication, adultery, pornography, divorce, ect.. are rampant in Baptist churches, but we ignore those.  Lost people are going to act like lost people, but the people of God have no excuse.

Your summary is excellent, and should be obvious to those who are Christ followers. It's sad to me that they aren't.
As to number 9, my experience is they are not ignored....if anything they are over-emphasized compared to other preaching/teaching topics.

I am not sure why we would preach HARD against homosexuality.  Most practicing are not in churches that do not embrace them.  The people in churches that do not embrace homosexuality don't believe it is right. You don't ignore but it is not a major topic. 

Tarheel and I actually agree that people fall into sexual sin knowing it is wrong. It is not because they aren't told. 

Your summary is good and I do appreciate you taking the time to formulate it. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

LongGone:
I read what you posted on this thread.  Isn't that what you believe?

Perhaps your comprehension or conclusions are incorrect.
But, if you think I believe Sodomy is the unpardonable or a 'super' sin, you are incorrect.
If you think I believe God acted differently toward sodomy than he did toward lying (in Scripture), you are correct.

 

[rsc2a]

I can recall someone being struck dead for lying in the NT. Two people actually.  I don't recall a corresponding event for homosexual activities.  Am I forgetting something?

 

[samspade]

Let's just quit sniping and agree on a few points....

1. Sodomy is a grievous sin before God, listed right above bestiality in Romans 1 as the final descent of mankind into sin. (anyone who says otherwise is intentionally lying.  They may not believe the Bible is God's word, but they cannot deny the Bible clearly labels it an abomination.)

Romans 1:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Sorry to interrupt, but I really dislike Romans 1 being misstated. Paul's account of mankind's journey away from God includes a lot more than homosexual behavior (not sure how you conclude that it is the final step away when Paul goes on with a very long list of sins after that). In fact, I see myself several places in verses 29-31. But I don't remember the last time I saw "Christian" protesters on the side of the road holding up signs against pride, lack of mercy, or disobedience to parents. I think that may be Smellin's point here.

Now, carry on with the gay-bashing.

 

[Mathew Ward]

God Himself calls homosexuality an abomination.

Sin is *always* a choice....not a lifestyle.

And "being gay" is about having an emotional, physical, and or sexual attraction toward members of the same sex and not simply the act of homosexuality.

God Himself also calls lying and pride an abomination. In fact, biblically there are a whole lot more verses against lying and pride than against homosexuality.

So, you don't believe scripture makes any distinction between the sin sodomy and the sin of lying?
And, do you have the same attitude toward those who claim their sexual attraction toward children is genetic?

I am not speaking for Smellin but how do you jump from homosexuality to sexually abusing children? It doesn't matter why a person is attracted to children (genetic or not) is justifiably against the law and in no way compares to two adult people in a consenting homosexual relationship.

I think it is on you to find scripture that demonstrates that God considers homosexuality is worse that lying. From a practical standpoint would you as an employer rather have a homosexual in a relationship outside the work place or someone that lies to you as an employee? As an employer give me the homosexual every time. Employees who you can not believe what they say are the burden.

Pedophilia, like homosexuality once was, is listed as a mental disorder.
Homosexuality was once illegal, like pedophilia is now.
Many pedophiles claim they were born that way...genetics....exactly what many homosexuals claim.

It is not the stretch you seem to want it to be...and pedophilia is closer to Sodomy than lying!

And it seems that anyone who can read, understand context and is intellectually honest will know God considers Sodomy in a much different light than lying. He also responds to it differently than lying. Ever read the story of Sodom?

Even Abraham and Sarah lied while Lot was whooping it up in Sodom yet God doesn't rain down fire and brimstone on them For their lying.

Ananias and Sapphira, not so lucky.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Let's just quit sniping and agree on a few points....

1. Sodomy is a grievous sin before God, listed right above bestiality in Romans 1 as the final descent of mankind into sin. (anyone who says otherwise is intentionally lying.  They may not believe the Bible is God's word, but they cannot deny the Bible clearly labels it an abomination.)

Romans 1:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Sorry to interrupt, but I really dislike Romans 1 being misstated. Paul's account of mankind's journey away from God includes a lot more than homosexual behavior (not sure how you conclude that it is the final step away when Paul goes on with a very long list of sins after that). In fact, I see myself several places in verses 29-31. But I don't remember the last time I saw "Christian" protesters on the side of the road holding up signs against pride, lack of mercy, or disobedience to parents. I think that may be Smellin's point here.

Now, carry on with the gay-bashing.

Sam, I don't recall Romans 1 being used to excess on this thread...at least not by anyone but you.
But it (along with many other passages of scripture) does clearly condemn homosexuality, which some here seem to deny or admit to with deep reluctance.
Your point is certainly well taken....and no one has tried to lessen the blackness of other sins...lying, pride etc.

As to 'gay bashing'...is it gay bashing to state that Sodomy is a sin?
Does the fact that lying is sinful negate the fact that Sodomy is sinful.
Does the fact that the church contains the sins of pride or hypocrisy (among many other sins) negate or lessen the fact that homosexuality is sinful.

And we aren't being deluged daily by the culture pushing acceptance of lying or hypocrisy as 'national virtues'.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

LongGone:
I am not sure why we would preach HARD against homosexuality.  Most practicing are not in churches that do not embrace them.  The people in churches that do not embrace homosexuality don't believe it is right. You don't ignore but it is not a major topic. 

Tarheel and I actually agree that people fall into sexual sin knowing it is wrong. It is not because they aren't told. 

Your summary is good and I do appreciate you taking the time to formulate it.

I agree totally with your ^^^post.

 

[IFB X-Files]

Sam, I don't recall Romans 1 being used to excess on this thread...at least not by anyone but you.
But it (along with many other passages of scripture) does clearly condemn homosexuality, which some here seem to deny or admit to with deep reluctance.
Your point is certainly well taken....and no one has tried to lessen the blackness of other sins...lying, pride etc.

As to 'gay bashing'...is it gay bashing to state that Sodomy is a sin?
Does the fact that lying is sinful negate the fact that Sodomy is sinful.
Does the fact that the church contains the sins of pride or hypocrisy (among many other sins) negate or lessen the fact that homosexuality is sinful.

And we aren't being deluged daily by the culture pushing acceptance of lying or hypocrisy as 'national virtues'.

Tsk, tsk.  Better watch it.  You're starting to "push the envelope" and you'll make someone unhappy.

 

[samspade]

Let's just quit sniping and agree on a few points....

1. Sodomy is a grievous sin before God, listed right above bestiality in Romans 1 as the final descent of mankind into sin. (anyone who says otherwise is intentionally lying.  They may not believe the Bible is God's word, but they cannot deny the Bible clearly labels it an abomination.)

Romans 1:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Sorry to interrupt, but I really dislike Romans 1 being misstated. Paul's account of mankind's journey away from God includes a lot more than homosexual behavior (not sure how you conclude that it is the final step away when Paul goes on with a very long list of sins after that). In fact, I see myself several places in verses 29-31. But I don't remember the last time I saw "Christian" protesters on the side of the road holding up signs against pride, lack of mercy, or disobedience to parents. I think that may be Smellin's point here.

Now, carry on with the gay-bashing.

Sam, I don't recall Romans 1 being used to excess on this thread...at least not by anyone but you.
But it (along with many other passages of scripture) does clearly condemn homosexuality, which some here seem to deny or admit to with deep reluctance.
Your point is certainly well taken....and no one has tried to lessen the blackness of other sins...lying, pride etc.

As to 'gay bashing'...is it gay bashing to state that Sodomy is a sin?
Does the fact that lying is sinful negate the fact that Sodomy is sinful.
Does the fact that the church contains the sins of pride or hypocrisy (among many other sins) negate or lessen the fact that homosexuality is sinful.

And we aren't being deluged daily by the culture pushing acceptance of lying or hypocrisy as 'national virtues'.

Please read again. I never said Romans 1 was used to excess. We both agree that homosexual behavior is sin. I just think it does no good to exaggerate its importance in the grand scheme of things. It's similar to Eve in the garden saying that God said to not even touch the fruit. Her exaggeration of what God said didn't keep her from sinning. And our current obsession with homosexuality doesn't seem to be keeping Christians from sinning either.

As far as the societal picture is concerned, America left God a long time ago. The current emphasis on gay rights is an effect, not the cause.

And I know you follow politics. Are you sure there isn't a daily deluge in our culture to accept lying and hypocrisy as virtues?

 

[subllibrm]

If gay bashing is okay then it is time to step up and start the LIAR BASHING!  :






Rationalization: John Wayne Gacy comparing himself to Jeffrey Dahmer, "sure, I killed 33 kids but at least I didn't eat them".

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Your summary is excellent, and should be obvious to those who are Christ followers. It's sad to me that they aren't.

OK, here is a chance to prove yourself. In the teachings of Christ, where did He specifically preach against homosexuality?

If you can't find it, your entire synopsis of what a Christ-follower is, is skewed. In fact, I would contend that there are gay Christ-followers.

 

[SwampHag]

Maybe we should ask the forum moderator to open a Westboro Baptist sub-forum.

Maybe y'all should just admit the Bible is right and you are wrong.

Sodomy is sin.

And yeah, I know, hate the sin love the sinner.  If you knew ANYTHING about me, you would know I do.  I am just SICK TO DEATH of Christians excusing sin.  Confess and forsake people.  Repentance is important.

 

[Fresh Air]

OK, here is a chance to prove yourself. In the teachings of Christ, where did He specifically preach against homosexuality?

If you can't find it, your entire synopsis of what a Christ-follower is, is skewed. In fact, I would contend that there are gay Christ-followers.

I feel sorry for you, Dan, I really, really do...

 

[rsc2a]

Although I agree with your general premise regarding the church's treatment of homosexuals,  to claim that Jesus never had anything to say about it is,  quite simply,  wrong. 

Jesus quite explicitly defined marriage and appealed back to the creation account.  In fact,  the whole idea presented here is kind of mind-boggling. Are you really saying that Jesus would advocate for a disordered state of being.

Even more so, the order inherent in the universe is itself derived From God, who is by definition,  Being... ergo to the degree that one is disordered,  they are also "not".

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Smellin:
Wait. I thought proper hermeneutics involved comparing Scripture with Scripture. When you compare the verses in the OT concerning Sodom, there is nil comment that they were destroyed due to stritctly homosexual activity.

Dan, scripture is filled with references to Sodomy....not exactly rocket science to anyone who:
Can read.
Is not seeking to justify perversion.
Is not biblically illiterate.
Someone who doesn't read Scripture and then declare 'it didn't say what it meant on mean what it said'.


Do you believe Sodomy is a sin?

Yes, Sodomy is a sin. But your definition of Sodomy would not match the biblical view.

Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Certainly doesn't seem like God destroyed Sodom because of a society of gay sex. They were borderline for God's judgement and a particular act pushed them over the line. Unless God was watching their unfair treatment of the the needy and stranger and totally overlooked they were a "homosexual" city (as you seem to believe).

Oh, and this verse clearly goes with the way they were treating strangers (sojourners) in their city as found in Genesis 19 and Jude.

Don't forget Isaiah's condemnation involving their luxury:

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.

There is not a single verse in the Bible that says the sin of Sodom was consensual gay sex.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Although I agree with your general premise regarding the church's treatment of homosexuals,  to claim that Jesus never had anything to say about it is,  quite simply,  wrong. 

Jesus quite explicitly defined marriage and appealed back to the creation account.  In fact,  the whole idea presented here is kind of mind-boggling. Are you really saying that Jesus would advocate for a disordered state of being.

Even more so, the order inherent in the universe is itself derived From God, who is by definition,  Being... ergo to the degree that one is disordered,  they are also "not".

I agree Jesus defined marriage.

What I am saying is that "being gay" is different than the homosexual act. We Christians tend to lump them together.

For example, prisons are filled with "straight" men who perform homosexual acts. They get back to the outside and practice heterosexual lifestyles. Why? Because they are not looking for the close, intimate relationships in a member of the same sex, because they were not born that way.

I believe "being gay" is different than committing homosexual acts. And yes, I do believe that Jesus did not ordain marriage to be between two members of the same sex. The only reason that I am for gay marriage is not because I am condoning homosexuality, but rather it is not an illegal act and to not allow gay marriage in this country is discriminatory.

BTW, Jesus description of marriage of monogamy (which I believe AND practice) totally destroys the "biblical view" of marriage.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Maybe we should ask the forum moderator to open a Westboro Baptist sub-forum.

Maybe y'all should just admit the Bible is right and you are wrong.

Sodomy is sin.

And yeah, I know, hate the sin love the sinner.  If you knew ANYTHING about me, you would know I do.  I am just SICK TO DEATH of Christians excusing sin.  Confess and forsake people.  Repentance is important.

And here we go again. Depends on the definition of Sodomy. The sins of Sodom WERE NOT a city full of homosexuals (though I don't know if that were the case or not). The sin of Sodom was their mistreatment to those in need and their desire to rape sojourners in their cities. To use the Bible story of Sodom as a homosexual city is a stretch, taking things out of their context.

Sodom was a whole lot like America, just not in the way you interpret it.

 

[SwampHag]

I never reference the city.  Just the SIN.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Dan, scripture is filled with references to Sodomy....not exactly rocket science to anyone who:
Can read.
Is not seeking to justify perversion.
Is not biblically illiterate.
Someone who doesn't read Scripture and then declare 'it didn't say what it meant on mean what it said'.

And yet NO ONE has proven from the Bible that the sins of Sodom were strictly about the propagation of homosexual lifestyles. See, you have assigned a definition to a term before studying out the subject matter and make claim that all references were based on your predetermined definition. Rather than going to ALL verses that mention Sodom's sin and defining "Sodomy" on those ideals, you have assigned your personal definition and want us to believe that was exactly what all biblical penman had in mind when they wrote what they did. And you accuse me of being biblically illiterate and seeking to justify an immoral activity? You are the one who chooses to approach the Scriptures with a particular viewpoint (mostly a traditionally Protestant view) and assume that the Scriptures apply as you want to see them interpreted. There is NOWHERE in the Bible that says the sin of Sodom was homosexuality.

We all approach life and literature and theology with a particular bent. That is human nature. I have attempted to wipe the slate clean, and come to my own conclusions rather than take the 66 book canon as I was taught it, with the lens I was give to look at it. I don't have an issue with one coming to a different conclusion than I as long as he searches it out and doesn't spew traditional theology based on theological fathers of yore.

Do you believe Sodomy is a sin?

Yes, and I believe that committing homosexual acts is a form of immorality and immorality is a sin. So yes, even with your definition I believe committing those acts is sinful.

And to add, I believe adultery is a worse issue in this country than is homosexuality. It destroys more families than does homosexuality, displaces more children, creates more debt and damages more lives. IMHO of course.