Freedom as a Pastor

[Biker]

(SBC) has always had one mission—the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20). To fulfill its assigned part of this divine mandate, each SBC entity made special offering appeals to the churches

Cooperative Program — How it works

Simply put, it begins with you. You give yourself first to God (2 Cor. 8:5). Next, out of gratitude and obedience to God for what He has done for you, you commit to give back to Him, through your church, a portion of what He provides. This is commonly called a tithe and represents ten percent of your income (Lev. 27:30, Mal. 3:10)

The Manure sure reeks here!^^^  This is "Commonly called" a tithe  and represents 10% of your income. No, it doesn't represent 10% of my income because it DOESN'T APPLY TO ME and IF IT DID, IT WOULD APPLY TO GIVING TO THE LOCAL CHURCH. And not for the purpose of funneling money to secular organization.

You'd should really investigate how many SBC churches believe in the tithe. It might surprise you. Either way, such resolutions are not biding within the organization.

I don't know how to go about that. Not sure I want to. We only have two SBC churches here that I am aware of. Neither teach tithing.

 

[lnf]

Hmmm.  I'm confused. 

I thought that SBC churches maintained their independence, but that they came together to support certain ministries (missions) as a body of like believers.

I thought the result of the SBC model of pooling mission monies together was that a pool of missionaries would receive enough support to actually go to their mission fields in a shorter span of time.

I've heard the term "secular" bandied about.  Does this mean that the entity that decides how the mission money is divvied up is not of the church?

I ask these questions because I somewhat disagree with the way IFB churches support missions, mine included.  It seems to me that IFB missionaries spend years traveling to different churches across the country hoping to gather enough support to go to the mission field.  This just seems like wasted time to me.  Let's get these folks into the field as soon as possible!

I have other thoughts on effective missions programs, but I'll stick with this single issue today. 

 

[subllibrm]

It seems to me that IFB missionaries spend years traveling to different churches across the country hoping to gather enough support to go to the mission field.

And then with all of that "independence" if you take support from church A and church B doesn't approve they will drop you. So IFB missionaries aren't "independent" at all.

 

[lnf]

It seems to me that IFB missionaries spend years traveling to different churches across the country hoping to gather enough support to go to the mission field.

And then with all of that "independence" if you take support from church A and church B doesn't approve they will drop you. So IFB missionaries aren't "independent" at all.

So exactly how does church B know what church A is giving?  My church gives through the missionary's mission board.  Does the board share that information between supporting churches?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If our church joins the American Baptist Convention, are we still IFB?

Can I join both the ABC and the SBC? 

Would either have a problem with that?

How about if my church joins all of these listed below -- am I still really just an IFBaptist???

    United States:
        Alliance of Baptists
        American Baptist Association
        American Baptist Churches
        Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
        Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
        Baptist Bible Fellowship International
        Baptist General Conference
        Baptist Missionary Association of America
        Central Baptist Association
        Christian Unity Baptist Association
        Conservative Baptist Association of America
        Continental Baptist Churches
        Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
        Enterprise Association of Regular Baptists
        Evangelical Free Baptist Church
        Free Will Baptist
        Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
        Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association
        Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
        General Association of Baptists
        General Association of General Baptists
        General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
        General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
        General Six-Principle Baptists
        Independent Baptist Church of America
        Independent Baptist Fellowship International
        Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
        Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America
        Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
        Landmark Baptists
        Liberty Baptist Fellowship
        Macedonia Baptist World Missions
        Mainstream Baptist Network
        National Association of Free Will Baptists
        National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
        National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
        National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
        National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
        National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
        North American Baptist Conference
        Old Regular Baptist
        Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists
        Old Time Missionary Baptist
        Original Free Will Baptist Convention
        Primitive Baptists
        Progressive National Baptist Convention
        Reformed Baptist
        Regular Baptist
        Roger Williams Fellowship
        Separate Baptist
        Separate Baptists in Christ
        Seventh Day Baptist General Conference
        Southern Baptist Convention
        Southwide Baptist Fellowship
        Sovereign Grace Baptists
        Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
        United American Free Will Baptist Church
        United American Free Will Baptist Conference
        United Baptists
        Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
        World Baptist Fellowship
        Worldwide Baptist New Testament Missions

ONE of the advantages of our church joining the SBC after 30 years as an IFB church was no longer being listed with the loons in the IFB.
You clearly do not understand SBC...much like an older gentleman in our church who thought the SBC took possession of your buildings and told he church when to change Pastors....not your (or his) fault that you're ignorant and uninformed.
He learned better.
Sometimes ignorance isn't bliss it's just plain old ignorance.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

(SBC) has always had one mission—the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20). To fulfill its assigned part of this divine mandate, each SBC entity made special offering appeals to the churches

Cooperative Program — How it works

Simply put, it begins with you. You give yourself first to God (2 Cor. 8:5). Next, out of gratitude and obedience to God for what He has done for you, you commit to give back to Him, through your church, a portion of what He provides. This is commonly called a tithe and represents ten percent of your income (Lev. 27:30, Mal. 3:10)

The Manure sure reeks here!^^^  This is "Commonly called" a tithe  and represents 10% of your income. No, it doesn't represent 10% of my income because it DOESN'T APPLY TO ME and IF IT DID, IT WOULD APPLY TO GIVING TO THE LOCAL CHURCH. And not for the purpose of funneling money to secular organization.

You'd should really investigate how many SBC churches believe in the tithe. It might surprise you. Either way, such resolutions are not biding within the organization.

I don't know how to go about that. Not sure I want to. We only have two SBC churches here that I am aware of. Neither teach tithing.

Our church just spent the better part of a year examining and learning about he ins and outs of the SBC. You are misinformed. The SBC has NO requirement as to how much you give to the co-operative program. We give 1% or less of our annual budget to the SBC...but in the 9 months since we joined, we've had no less than 5 consultants visit our church to help us, at no cost to us. Our Pastors have also attended 7 different conferences and workshops, at no cost to us.

At he last IFB meeting I went to, I was taught that we need a choir, hymn books, only the KJV and a good coulotte pattern to build a good soul winning church. I'm using some hyperbole, but those are the points
That were made over and over at he conference. National Sword Conference at Gospel Light in Winston Salem, NC....2011.

That was really when I decided to begin to prayerfully move our church away from that idiocy. NOT that all IFBs are that way....but sadly, most are.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It seems to me that IFB missionaries spend years traveling to different churches across the country hoping to gather enough support to go to the mission field.

And then with all of that "independence" if you take support from church A and church B doesn't approve they will drop you. So IFB missionaries aren't "independent" at all.

So exactly how does church B know what church A is giving?  My church gives through the missionary's mission board.  Does the board share that information between supporting churches?

We are keeping our missions program as it was before we went with the SBC.
We actually have 2-3 IFB missionaries concerned that taking support from an SBC church will hurt their support with other IFB churches and one asked his board if he could keep taking our money.

If uber independents like Frag support a missionary thru a Board or have AWANA programs, they are no longer independent by Frags definition.
What a joke!

We also have our regions AWANA missionaries in our church....they didn't join because we were going SBC....but they still faithfully attend and give.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Since the church I pastor is autonomous and independent, is it all right if I still preach against the SBC?

OK by me....and the rest of them never heard of you.
You're obviously killing them.....

 

[subllibrm]

It seems to me that IFB missionaries spend years traveling to different churches across the country hoping to gather enough support to go to the mission field.

And then with all of that "independence" if you take support from church A and church B doesn't approve they will drop you. So IFB missionaries aren't "independent" at all.

So exactly how does church B know what church A is giving?  My church gives through the missionary's mission board.  Does the board share that information between supporting churches?

It wouldn't be about the money but that the missionary "affiliated" with the wrong church. Separation and compromise would be the rationale. The missionary becomes a pawn in a proxy war between IFB "camps".

 

[subllibrm]

I didn't see this:

We actually have 2-3 IFB missionaries concerned that taking support from an SBC church will hurt their support with other IFB churches and one asked his board if he could keep taking our money,

Before I wrote this:

It wouldn't be about the money but that the missionary "affiliated" with the wrong church. Separation and compromise would be the rationale. The missionary becomes a pawn in a proxy war between IFB "camps".

It isn't about the money. It's about control.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I'm not trying to get a stick started, just wandering if anyone had the same experience.

Sometime ago a friend that asked me how was my experience going back into a SBC church to pastor. I simply told him that I was more free as a SBC pastor than as an independent Baptist pastor to be and do as I believe God wanted me to do. He looked at me very strange and asked how's that?

I told him that I did not have to financially support anything that I did not want to support, had no one trying to tell me who to have come preach (and did not have to worry that any of my sbc pastor friends would call me either), I don't have to worry about anyone writing me up in a "Christian" newspaper and calling me a liberal (unless it is for pastoring an sbc church), I don't have to worry about being shunned at a pastor's fellowship, have been more encouraged than ever to be faithful to preach the would of God expositionally, to loving lead God's people, and believe that the work of God is God's business I just get to participate in obedience and faith.

Has anyone else had this experience, or am I just blessed.

Please note: I did not write this post to bash my Independent pastor friends. There are many great and Godly men that pastor Independent Baptist churches. In fact I still preach for and have them preach for me. This may shock you, but when I went back into the sbc, the very first words I heard from convention leadership was- "We are all independent Baptist churches that choose to cooperate on some level."
I'm not loyal to Nashville, Greenville, Pensacola, Lancaster, Hammond or Rome- Just Jesus!

Going back to the OP, rather than the bickering.

I would say your experience is the first I have heard like it.  Having been born and reared in FBCH and HAC, I had a natural distaste for the SBC.  One day, I began to ask why.  Over some years, I researched, spoke to people and came to some conclusions.

First, regarding the IFB groups:  There are several subsections of IFB (HAC, Sword, West Coast, BJU, etc) that are denominations, though they claim they are not a denomination (the NADD).  In these groups, a leader convinces others to follow his pattern through "loyalty," being "right with God," "God's will," and the "Us versus them" approach.  Regular attendance at conferences are expected.  Money is rarely requested, but sending teens from your church to their school is expected.  Each of these do keep lists of churches who support them and ask for those churches to remain in their movement, host their evangelists and engage in a buddy system.  So, the idea of independence in this group is nice, but somewhat of a misnomer.  Independence in the NADD can be both defended rightly and attacked rightly.

Regarding the SBC:  I have spoken to too many pastors who have been "encouraged" by SBC regional consultants to believe that the group does not seek to control your church.  When the SBC controls your retirement package, insurance, salary and building, they control the church.  Many pastors have told me of the warnings and even threats they have received if they leave the SBC and the cooperative program or don't take part in the programs promoted by the SBC.  Maybe it was misconstrued, but I was told what I was told.

Regarding the SBC:  I have learned that there are many good people who I would consider friends in the SBC.  Joining the SBC does not make one inherently evil in every motive.  Many SBC authors have researched and written actual books (not just typing up a sermon) on topics of which the IFB crowd has no understanding.  These books are very helpful for a counseling pastor who is seeking to help people, but are mere paperweights to the "Just come to church so I can scream at you and you will not have any more problems." crowd of the IFB.

Regarding the SBC:  The group has a natural affinity towards liberalism and calvinism that I oppose.  I find it odd that they need to re-affirm their stance every year at the convention.  At times the leadership is evangelistic and at times the leadership is calvinistic.  They change which version of Scripture they officially support with some frequency.  The national convention (according to some movers in the movement with whom I have spoken) is filled with strife and vain glory and arguments over which direction to take the movement.

My conclusion:  Both the IFB NADD and the SBC are incorrect.  I choose not to formally associate myself with either group.  I really like the whole "Autonomous" thing! 8)  I can learn from both groups and have friends in both groups, but not be a formal part of either.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm not trying to get a stick started, just wandering if anyone had the same experience.

Sometime ago a friend that asked me how was my experience going back into a SBC church to pastor. I simply told him that I was more free as a SBC pastor than as an independent Baptist pastor to be and do as I believe God wanted me to do. He looked at me very strange and asked how's that?

I told him that I did not have to financially support anything that I did not want to support, had no one trying to tell me who to have come preach (and did not have to worry that any of my sbc pastor friends would call me either), I don't have to worry about anyone writing me up in a "Christian" newspaper and calling me a liberal (unless it is for pastoring an sbc church), I don't have to worry about being shunned at a pastor's fellowship, have been more encouraged than ever to be faithful to preach the would of God expositionally, to loving lead God's people, and believe that the work of God is God's business I just get to participate in obedience and faith.

Has anyone else had this experience, or am I just blessed.

Please note: I did not write this post to bash my Independent pastor friends. There are many great and Godly men that pastor Independent Baptist churches. In fact I still preach for and have them preach for me. This may shock you, but when I went back into the sbc, the very first words I heard from convention leadership was- "We are all independent Baptist churches that choose to cooperate on some level."
I'm not loyal to Nashville, Greenville, Pensacola, Lancaster, Hammond or Rome- Just Jesus!

Going back to the OP, rather than the bickering.

Regarding the SBC:  I have spoken to too many pastors who have been "encouraged" by SBC regional consultants to believe that the group does not seek to control your church.  When the SBC controls your retirement package, insurance, salary and building, they control the church.  Many pastors have told me of the warnings and even threats they have received if they leave the SBC and the cooperative program or don't take part in the programs promoted by the SBC.  Maybe it was misconstrued, but I was told what I was told.

Regarding the SBC:  The group has a natural affinity towards liberalism and calvinism that I oppose.  I find it odd that they need to re-affirm their stance every year at the convention.  At times the leadership is evangelistic and at times the leadership is calvinistic.  They change which version of Scripture they officially support with some frequency.  The national convention (according to some movers in the movement with whom I have spoken) is filled with strife and vain glory and arguments over which direction to take the movement.

My conclusion:  Both the IFB NADD and the SBC are incorrect.  I choose not to formally associate myself with either group.  I really like the whole "Autonomous" thing! 8)  I can learn from both groups and have friends in both groups, but not be a formal part of either.

Certainly everyone has a right to be in any group or not be in that group if they choose.  But let's have our decisions be based in fact.  I have pastored 4 different SBC affliated churches in the last thirty plus years.  So let me deal with the statements in the first paragraph I copied from you.  Neither I nor any other church or pastor I know have the SBC controlling our retirement, our insurance, our salary, or own our buildings. This is such a misnomer...we are autonomous local churches...the local church determines my retirement (and I control it), provides my insurance coverage, determines my salary, and owns its own buildings and this is true of every SBC church I know of...so this information that is being provided is incorrect.  The only way this would be different is if the church is of mission status and the convention through the North American Mission Board was supporting the church to get it started.

As far as the group leaning liberal...again I would beg to differ with you.  Yes there have been liberal movements started in local churches that have tried to change the convention.  Every time they have been shot down, because the local churches are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology and practice.  The convention does not exist except on a few days each year when the member churches come together.  The highest entity in the SBC is the local autonomous church.  If our church chose to leave the SBC tomorrow, we could and there is nothing the convention could or would do about it.  I agree the local autonomous church is the way to go, and that is the way it is in the SBC...and any other statement is contrary to the truth, either because of ignorance or intentional misinformation.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I'm not trying to get a stick started, just wandering if anyone had the same experience.

Sometime ago a friend that asked me how was my experience going back into a SBC church to pastor. I simply told him that I was more free as a SBC pastor than as an independent Baptist pastor to be and do as I believe God wanted me to do. He looked at me very strange and asked how's that?

I told him that I did not have to financially support anything that I did not want to support, had no one trying to tell me who to have come preach (and did not have to worry that any of my sbc pastor friends would call me either), I don't have to worry about anyone writing me up in a "Christian" newspaper and calling me a liberal (unless it is for pastoring an sbc church), I don't have to worry about being shunned at a pastor's fellowship, have been more encouraged than ever to be faithful to preach the would of God expositionally, to loving lead God's people, and believe that the work of God is God's business I just get to participate in obedience and faith.

Has anyone else had this experience, or am I just blessed.

Please note: I did not write this post to bash my Independent pastor friends. There are many great and Godly men that pastor Independent Baptist churches. In fact I still preach for and have them preach for me. This may shock you, but when I went back into the sbc, the very first words I heard from convention leadership was- "We are all independent Baptist churches that choose to cooperate on some level."
I'm not loyal to Nashville, Greenville, Pensacola, Lancaster, Hammond or Rome- Just Jesus!

Going back to the OP, rather than the bickering.

Regarding the SBC:  I have spoken to too many pastors who have been "encouraged" by SBC regional consultants to believe that the group does not seek to control your church.  When the SBC controls your retirement package, insurance, salary and building, they control the church.  Many pastors have told me of the warnings and even threats they have received if they leave the SBC and the cooperative program or don't take part in the programs promoted by the SBC.  Maybe it was misconstrued, but I was told what I was told.

Regarding the SBC:  The group has a natural affinity towards liberalism and calvinism that I oppose.  I find it odd that they need to re-affirm their stance every year at the convention.  At times the leadership is evangelistic and at times the leadership is calvinistic.  They change which version of Scripture they officially support with some frequency.  The national convention (according to some movers in the movement with whom I have spoken) is filled with strife and vain glory and arguments over which direction to take the movement.

My conclusion:  Both the IFB NADD and the SBC are incorrect.  I choose not to formally associate myself with either group.  I really like the whole "Autonomous" thing! 8)  I can learn from both groups and have friends in both groups, but not be a formal part of either.

Certainly everyone has a right to be in any group or not be in that group if they choose.  But let's have our decisions be based in fact.  I have pastored 4 different SBC affliated churches in the last thirty plus years.  So let me deal with the statements in the first paragraph I copied from you.  Neither I nor any other church or pastor I know have the SBC controlling our retirement, our insurance, our salary, or own our buildings. This is such a misnomer...we are autonomous local churches...the local church determines my retirement (and I control it), provides my insurance coverage, determines my salary, and owns its own buildings and this is true of every SBC church I know of...so this information that is being provided is incorrect.  The only way this would be different is if the church is of mission status and the convention through the North American Mission Board was supporting the church to get it started.

As far as the group leaning liberal...again I would beg to differ with you.  Yes there have been liberal movements started in local churches that have tried to change the convention.  Every time they have been shot down, because the local churches are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology and practice.  The convention does not exist except on a few days each year when the member churches come together.  The highest entity in the SBC is the local autonomous church.  If our church chose to leave the SBC tomorrow, we could and there is nothing the convention could or would do about it.  I agree the local autonomous church is the way to go, and that is the way it is in the SBC...and any other statement is contrary to the truth, either because of ignorance or intentional misinformation.

Interesting comments about financial control.  I simply reported what was told me in personal conversation by many pastors who had left the SBC.  Regarding liberalism.  Your tolerance must be much different than mine.  Even SBC leadership who are calvinistic and ESV friends have told me how the convention is rife with strife but the mainstream church is pulling away from the traditional church.

 

[T-Bone]

I'm not trying to get a stick started, just wandering if anyone had the same experience.

Sometime ago a friend that asked me how was my experience going back into a SBC church to pastor. I simply told him that I was more free as a SBC pastor than as an independent Baptist pastor to be and do as I believe God wanted me to do. He looked at me very strange and asked how's that?

I told him that I did not have to financially support anything that I did not want to support, had no one trying to tell me who to have come preach (and did not have to worry that any of my sbc pastor friends would call me either), I don't have to worry about anyone writing me up in a "Christian" newspaper and calling me a liberal (unless it is for pastoring an sbc church), I don't have to worry about being shunned at a pastor's fellowship, have been more encouraged than ever to be faithful to preach the would of God expositionally, to loving lead God's people, and believe that the work of God is God's business I just get to participate in obedience and faith.

Has anyone else had this experience, or am I just blessed.

Please note: I did not write this post to bash my Independent pastor friends. There are many great and Godly men that pastor Independent Baptist churches. In fact I still preach for and have them preach for me. This may shock you, but when I went back into the sbc, the very first words I heard from convention leadership was- "We are all independent Baptist churches that choose to cooperate on some level."
I'm not loyal to Nashville, Greenville, Pensacola, Lancaster, Hammond or Rome- Just Jesus!

Going back to the OP, rather than the bickering.

Regarding the SBC:  I have spoken to too many pastors who have been "encouraged" by SBC regional consultants to believe that the group does not seek to control your church.  When the SBC controls your retirement package, insurance, salary and building, they control the church.  Many pastors have told me of the warnings and even threats they have received if they leave the SBC and the cooperative program or don't take part in the programs promoted by the SBC.  Maybe it was misconstrued, but I was told what I was told.

Regarding the SBC:  The group has a natural affinity towards liberalism and calvinism that I oppose.  I find it odd that they need to re-affirm their stance every year at the convention.  At times the leadership is evangelistic and at times the leadership is calvinistic.  They change which version of Scripture they officially support with some frequency.  The national convention (according to some movers in the movement with whom I have spoken) is filled with strife and vain glory and arguments over which direction to take the movement.

My conclusion:  Both the IFB NADD and the SBC are incorrect.  I choose not to formally associate myself with either group.  I really like the whole "Autonomous" thing! 8)  I can learn from both groups and have friends in both groups, but not be a formal part of either.

Certainly everyone has a right to be in any group or not be in that group if they choose.  But let's have our decisions be based in fact.  I have pastored 4 different SBC affliated churches in the last thirty plus years.  So let me deal with the statements in the first paragraph I copied from you.  Neither I nor any other church or pastor I know have the SBC controlling our retirement, our insurance, our salary, or own our buildings. This is such a misnomer...we are autonomous local churches...the local church determines my retirement (and I control it), provides my insurance coverage, determines my salary, and owns its own buildings and this is true of every SBC church I know of...so this information that is being provided is incorrect.  The only way this would be different is if the church is of mission status and the convention through the North American Mission Board was supporting the church to get it started.

As far as the group leaning liberal...again I would beg to differ with you.  Yes there have been liberal movements started in local churches that have tried to change the convention.  Every time they have been shot down, because the local churches are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology and practice.  The convention does not exist except on a few days each year when the member churches come together.  The highest entity in the SBC is the local autonomous church.  If our church chose to leave the SBC tomorrow, we could and there is nothing the convention could or would do about it.  I agree the local autonomous church is the way to go, and that is the way it is in the SBC...and any other statement is contrary to the truth, either because of ignorance or intentional misinformation.

Interesting comments about financial control.  I simply reported what was told me in personal conversation by many pastors who had left the SBC.  Regarding liberalism.  Your tolerance must be much different than mine.  Even SBC leadership who are calvinistic and ESV friends have told me how the convention is rife with strife but the mainstream church is pulling away from the traditional church.

I guess it is who you talk to.  People's view of where people stand on the spectrum of liberal vs conservative happens even in local fundamental churches.  I would say that if you have talked to pastors in the "Bible belt" you would get a different view than from us out here in the west.  Their struggle with liberalism is not within the mainstream of the SBC, but with splinter groups like the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship...Texas actually has two conventions that both claim SBC, one is considered more liberal than the other.  But once again the Convention has no control over the local autonomous church or pastor.  All that belongs to the local church and if you have been told different you have been told incorrectly, and I would love to talk with those who have fed you that incorrect information.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I'm not trying to get a stick started, just wandering if anyone had the same experience.

Sometime ago a friend that asked me how was my experience going back into a SBC church to pastor. I simply told him that I was more free as a SBC pastor than as an independent Baptist pastor to be and do as I believe God wanted me to do. He looked at me very strange and asked how's that?

I told him that I did not have to financially support anything that I did not want to support, had no one trying to tell me who to have come preach (and did not have to worry that any of my sbc pastor friends would call me either), I don't have to worry about anyone writing me up in a "Christian" newspaper and calling me a liberal (unless it is for pastoring an sbc church), I don't have to worry about being shunned at a pastor's fellowship, have been more encouraged than ever to be faithful to preach the would of God expositionally, to loving lead God's people, and believe that the work of God is God's business I just get to participate in obedience and faith.

Has anyone else had this experience, or am I just blessed.

Please note: I did not write this post to bash my Independent pastor friends. There are many great and Godly men that pastor Independent Baptist churches. In fact I still preach for and have them preach for me. This may shock you, but when I went back into the sbc, the very first words I heard from convention leadership was- "We are all independent Baptist churches that choose to cooperate on some level."
I'm not loyal to Nashville, Greenville, Pensacola, Lancaster, Hammond or Rome- Just Jesus!

Going back to the OP, rather than the bickering.

Regarding the SBC:  I have spoken to too many pastors who have been "encouraged" by SBC regional consultants to believe that the group does not seek to control your church.  When the SBC controls your retirement package, insurance, salary and building, they control the church.  Many pastors have told me of the warnings and even threats they have received if they leave the SBC and the cooperative program or don't take part in the programs promoted by the SBC.  Maybe it was misconstrued, but I was told what I was told.

Regarding the SBC:  The group has a natural affinity towards liberalism and calvinism that I oppose.  I find it odd that they need to re-affirm their stance every year at the convention.  At times the leadership is evangelistic and at times the leadership is calvinistic.  They change which version of Scripture they officially support with some frequency.  The national convention (according to some movers in the movement with whom I have spoken) is filled with strife and vain glory and arguments over which direction to take the movement.

My conclusion:  Both the IFB NADD and the SBC are incorrect.  I choose not to formally associate myself with either group.  I really like the whole "Autonomous" thing! 8)  I can learn from both groups and have friends in both groups, but not be a formal part of either.

Certainly everyone has a right to be in any group or not be in that group if they choose.  But let's have our decisions be based in fact.  I have pastored 4 different SBC affliated churches in the last thirty plus years.  So let me deal with the statements in the first paragraph I copied from you.  Neither I nor any other church or pastor I know have the SBC controlling our retirement, our insurance, our salary, or own our buildings. This is such a misnomer...we are autonomous local churches...the local church determines my retirement (and I control it), provides my insurance coverage, determines my salary, and owns its own buildings and this is true of every SBC church I know of...so this information that is being provided is incorrect.  The only way this would be different is if the church is of mission status and the convention through the North American Mission Board was supporting the church to get it started.

As far as the group leaning liberal...again I would beg to differ with you.  Yes there have been liberal movements started in local churches that have tried to change the convention.  Every time they have been shot down, because the local churches are overwhelmingly conservative in their theology and practice.  The convention does not exist except on a few days each year when the member churches come together.  The highest entity in the SBC is the local autonomous church.  If our church chose to leave the SBC tomorrow, we could and there is nothing the convention could or would do about it.  I agree the local autonomous church is the way to go, and that is the way it is in the SBC...and any other statement is contrary to the truth, either because of ignorance or intentional misinformation.

Interesting comments about financial control.  I simply reported what was told me in personal conversation by many pastors who had left the SBC.  Regarding liberalism.  Your tolerance must be much different than mine.  Even SBC leadership who are calvinistic and ESV friends have told me how the convention is rife with strife but the mainstream church is pulling away from the traditional church.

I can confirm that the people you talked to were wrong!
Our church joined the SBC last fall after 31 years as IFB.
Our Pastors were ALREADY in Guidestone as IFBs.
The only thing that changed is that now the SBC makes a matching contribution to our accounts.

Many IFB Pastors are in the SBC retirement program.

 

[Biker]

Christ knew Satan's time was limited. Even when he offered all this, the cities and nations upon the mountaintop. No scripture posted...it was countered with the SBC's beliefs instead. Despite the website itself, it's own admissions, opposing scripture. We just pretend that wasn't posted?

They even try to make the Christian Tithe, TO THE EARLY CHURCH applicable to fund their secular agenda. Unashamed of their sin posting it online for all to see!

How hot will hell be for these Church Leaders and the SBC? How many will be saved after this conspiracy? Only HE knows. We need to pray for them, their salvation. HE may have a mighty plan to use them down the line.

Matthew 4: 8-12  Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." 10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "


"Get AWAY From Me SBC. For it is written,worship the Lord your God and serve HIM only"

 

[Biker]

Our church just spent the better part of a year examining and learning about he ins and outs of the SBC.

No where in Scripture, iincluding 1 Timothy, is this allowed. It wastes time and defrauds your sheep. God commanded the Sheep be protected from exactly what you are infiltrating your church with.

You are misinformed. The SBC has NO requirement as to how much you give to the co-operative program.

I never stated it did.

We give 1% or less of our annual budget to the SBC...but in the 9 months since we joined,we've had no less than 5 consultants visit our church to help us, at no cost to us. Our Pastors have also attended 7 different conferences and workshops, at no cost to us.

  1% is too much. & that's a huge amout of SBC indoctrination.

At he last IFB meeting I went to, I was taught that we need a choir, hymn books, only the KJV and a good coulotte pattern to build a good soul winning church. I'm using some hyperbole, but those are the points

Yes, that's heresy. But you must not repeat the cycle. We are not talking about whether alcohol is permisable or whether to have a Choir w/Hymbooks.  You are actively opposing GOD. Dragging others to their demise. A Christian doesn't partner with the unsaved upon spiritual matters or guidance. The Great Commission was given TO THE LOCAL Church. It is implemented while under local church oversight.

That was really when I decided to begin to prayerfully move our church away from that idiocy.NOT that all IFBs are that way....but sadly, most are.

Prayerfully moving your church from one cesspool to another doesn't result in salvation. It only wastes precious time. Hopefully I've been gentle enough that when you are saved, I can be allowed to rejoice with you. And support you as you introduce the truth to the Sheep. How exciting that could be! What a great place you are in. I'll be praying. Blessings and strength to you.

 

[Izdaari]

Hmm. Being an SBC pastor just wouldn't work out for me.
I'd be expected to be several things I couldn't be.
A man and a conservative evangelical to start with.
I could be Baptist, but it'd have to be ABC.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I can confirm that the people you talked to were wrong!
Our church joined the SBC last fall after 31 years as IFB.
Our Pastors were ALREADY in Guidestone as IFBs.
The only thing that changed is that now the SBC makes a matching contribution to our accounts.

Many IFB Pastors are in the SBC retirement program.

This is just what I was told.  It sounds great to begin with, but once there is disagreement, you are in a bind.  Sure, you could withdraw membership, but your budget and building payments are reliant upon that matching contribution.  Hence, when you leave the denomination, you leave your buildings also.  Also, once you leave the denomination, you abandon your retirement.

What this does is to effectively allow the SBC's denominational board and its consultants to control the direction of the church, rather than the local congregation and its pastor.

 

[rsc2a]

Our church just spent the better part of a year examining and learning about he ins and outs of the SBC.

No where in Scripture, iincluding 1 Timothy, is this allowed. It wastes time and defrauds your sheep. God commanded the Sheep be protected from exactly what you are infiltrating your church with.

I don't find anywhere in Scripture where pianos or electric lights are allowed either.

[quote author=Biker]

We give 1% or less of our annual budget to the SBC...but in the 9 months since we joined,we've had no less than 5 consultants visit our church to help us, at no cost to us. Our Pastors have also attended 7 different conferences and workshops, at no cost to us.

  1% is too much. & that's a huge amout of SBC indoctrination. [/quote]

Would that be the tithe or no-tithe SBC doctrine? The congregational or elder-led doctrine? The Calvinist or Arminian doctrine? The contemporary or traditional-only doctrine?

(You are aware that there are SBC churches I could point to that follow each of these viewpoints (among many, many more).)

[quote author=Biker]

At he last IFB meeting I went to, I was taught that we need a choir, hymn books, only the KJV and a good coulotte pattern to build a good soul winning church. I'm using some hyperbole, but those are the points

Yes, that's heresy. But you must not repeat the cycle. We are not talking about whether alcohol is permisable or whether to have a Choir w/Hymbooks.  You are actively opposing GOD. Dragging others to their demise. A Christian doesn't partner with the unsaved upon spiritual matters or guidance. The Great Commission was given TO THE LOCAL Church. It is implemented while under local church oversight.[/quote]

A point all these independent, INDEPENDENT, INDEPENDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! people keep ignoring...

...maybe you'll answer it. How many books are in your Bible? Why?