I'll put it into context for you, when I get some time.
Are You Ready for the Next World War? (Morphed to Don't Question Zionism)
- Thread starter Ekklesian
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Do you see how upside down you are? It's the Jews that hate Christ. It was they who killed the prophets. (A prophet can't die outside of Jerusalem) and God will bring upon them all the righteous blood spilled in the earth, from the blood of Abel to Zacharias, whom they slew between the temple and the alter. It's the Church that is hated in the world. That's the testimony of Christ, Himself, which testimony you are here denying, and you call His servants liars. You carry a torch for the blasphemers, who would in a millisecond if they had the power to do so, to bring Christ down from Heaven and crucify Him all over again, and you raise the stake for Christians.
I still work for a living, so I don't have time to give myself to the tomes of LeHayesian hogwash and the vomitus of other purveyors of propaganda and Jewish fables which have obviously been your staple diet for decades.
But I do have the Scriptures, and you can't answer my arguments. You don't even try. You bring in irrelevant claptrap (which I will answer in time) to avoid the subject and throw shade.
So, while you're waiting, maybe you can tell me who, according to Paul, a true Jew is. Use only the Scriptures and universally accepted pre-Darbian commentators.
Thank you.
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So, who are 'the Jews'?
Christ made a distinction between His 'little children', meaning His disciples, and those whom He called 'the Jews.'
Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. - John 13:33
So there is a distinction to be made between whom Christ called Jews in the above verse, and those who are simply biological descendants of Abraham, as were all of Christ's 'little children' at the time.And that is a distinction observed by Luther in his writings, and also in the one writing which is oft-cited, but little read, when he speaks of The Jews and Their Lies, which was admonition to the rulers of Saxony who were establishing the Reformation in civil law.
Luther advised...
...that you prohibit their Rabbis to teach. For they have forfeited the right to such an office, because they keep the poor Jews captive with the passage of Moses 7:11, 12, who there commands them to obey their teachers under threat of losing body and soul.
Moses clearly adds, "What they teach you according to the law of the Lord."
This the profilgates pass over , and use the obedience of the poor people for their own wilfulness against the law of the Lord, and pour out for them such poison and blasphemy.
Luther was so far from anti-semetic, that he spoke up for the 'poor Jew' who was held in bondage by the rabbis, pointing out the hypocrisy and blasphemy, or, in other words, The Lies of the rabbis, the Jews.He was anti-antichrist.
It's not the biological descendants of Abraham, who was an uncircumcised dog himself when God called him, in view in Luther's writing.
It was what we would call today, the Zionists.
(more to come)
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Not that they had a real desire to return to Jerusalem:
Land and highways are open to them; they may move to their country whenever they care to do so!
...but by a perversion of the Messianic prophecy of the Desire of Nations, they considered themselves the heirs of the wealth of the Gentiles, no matter where they settled, which is how they justified their oppressive and confiscatory practices in money lending.For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts. - Haggai 2:6-7
The Jews deny that He came when the temple was still standing and claim that He shall still come, as they now have been waiting 1568 years after the destruction of that same temple—and cannot be called a "little while," because they do not yet know the end of the such a "long while."
...
But here they squirm out of it in this way: since they cannot deny the "little while," they take the expression: "Desire of Nations," in Hebrew "Hemdath," by itself, and crucify it. Say it should not designate "Messiah," but should denote all gold and silver of the heathen. Because the word "Hemdath," according to the grammar, really means "Desire and love for," as that which the heathen desire and love. And now the text shall read thus: "After a little while the disire of all heathen shall come." What is that? What do the heathen desire? Gold, silver, and jewels.
...
They also find comfort with this: "When Messiah comes, He shall take all the gold and silver in the world and distribute it among them (the Jews)." Thus wherever they can direct Scripture to their insatiable avarice they wickedly do so.
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Ekklesian- “Zionism is a defacto doctrine in a majority of Evangelical denominations, and especially in Baptist and Pentecostal churches, in large part due to the influence of John Darby and the proliferation of the Scofield Bible.”
In regards to the Jews returning to their homeland and the battle of Gog and Magog, John Gill (Calvinistic Baptist) who wrote many years before Darby or Scofield came on the scene does not agree with your symbolical interpretation of these prophesies and as to the literal regathering of the Jews to their homeland in the last days. I will not be so arrogant as to state I have perfect knowledge of these end time things but I do believe Christians can disagree without falling apart with someone's differing interpretation.John Gill (1697 1771) Commentary
Eze 38:1 And the word of the Lord came unto me,.... At the same time as the preceding prophecy did, as the copulative and shows; which predicts the restoration and conversion of the Jews; the union of their tribes under the King Messiah; and their settlement in their own land: and this respects some disturbance they should meet with upon it, for a short time, by a powerful enemy hereafter described:
Eze 38:2 “...it is certain that the prophecy refers to what should be in "latter years", and in the "latter days", Eze_38:8, phrases which respect the times of the Messiah, the Gospel dispensation, and oftentimes the latter part of that; and even those times when the Jews shall return to their own land, and continue in it for ever, as the preceding prophecy, with which this is connected, shows; and so the Jews always understand it of an enemy of theirs yet to come.” John Gill (1697 1771)
38:16 it shall be in the latter days; of the Gospel state, or kingdom of the Messiah, when the Jews shall be converted, and are returned to their own land, Hos_3:5,
38:20 and the mountains shall be thrown down; as they are sometimes by earthquakes; and as the mount of Olives will at this time cleave asunder; and perhaps other mountains will, as Kimchi observes, see Zec_14:2,
Rom 11:26 “And so all Israel shall be saved,.... Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fulness" of them, Rom_11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once (May 14, 1948); when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come.”
Charles Spurgeon on the Millennialism
“Nazareth, the Son of David, as their King, and that they will return to their own land. . . . It is certain also that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, and that he will reign amongst his ancients gloriously, and that there will be a thousand years of joy and peace such as were never known on this earth before. It is also certain that there will be a great and general judgment, when all nations shall be gathered before the Son of man sitting upon the throne of his glory; and his final award concerning those upon his left hand will be. . . . How all these great events are to be chronologically arranged, I cannot tell.”
"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be post-millennial — that is, after the thousand years of his reign. I cannot think so. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that he will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]
https://www.reformedreader.org/spurgeon/mview.htm
Pre-millennial theologians don’t have a general consensus on when the events of Ezekiel 38 will occur, either before the Tribulation, shortly into the Tribulation, before the Rapture of the Church etc. This video explains both the Pre-millennial and Post-millennial views and the sovereignty of God in salvation and all other events taking place in the world today.
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Quoted from John Gill, who died in 1771 - obviously someone else added in the reference to May 14, 1948, the date when a nation would be born at once, presumably in fulfillment of the prediction of Isaiah 66:8. Gill couldn't have known that Israel would declare independence on that date.
So did Gill believe that a future restoration of Israel as a political, national entity, would be the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8? Clearly, he did not - he believed that Isaiah's prediction began to be fulfilled by the mass conversion of Jews to Christ recorded in Acts. Gill's commentary on that passage does not say or hint anything about a restoration of the national Israeli state - it is entirely about spiritual conversion of individual Jews. Go and read Gill's original, unedited teaching:
Isaiah 66:8 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
What does Isaiah 66:8 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
www.biblestudytools.com
Isaiah 66:8
"'Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?' &c.] Such numerous conversions, as after related; suggesting that they were wonderful and surprising, unheard of, what had never been seen in the world before, and which were amazing and astonishing to the church herself; see ( Isaiah 49:21 ) ( 60:8 ) , 'shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? . . . or shall a nation be born at once?' was ever such a thing heard of? yet this will be the case of the Jews in the latter day, when they shall be all converted and saved; and which shall be done suddenly and at once; see ( Hosea 1:10 Hosea 1:11 ) ( Romans 11:25 Romans 11:26 ) , of which the conversion of them, in the first times of the Gospel, was an earnest and pledge, when three thousand were convinced, converted, and regenerated, in one day, under one sermon; and at another time, under the word, two thousand, if not five thousand: thus Christ had, from the womb of the morning, or at the first break of the Gospel day, 'the dew of his youth,' or numbers of souls born again to him, like the drops of the morning dew; see ( Acts 2:41 ) ( 4:4 ) ( Psalms 110:3 ) : 'for as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children.'"
Commentaries by Matthew Poole, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, John Wesley, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Philip Mauro and Wycliffe Bible Commentary all take the view that Isaiah 66:6-8, predicting the birth of a nation in one day, refer to or pre-figure the birth and growth of Christianity in the First Century AD - some of the commentators make special reference to the day of Pentecost.
Philip Mauro, in "The Hope of Israel:" "And beyond all question the 'one day' here foretold is that great day of Pentecost, which was the birthday of that marvellous 'nation,' the like whereof had never been in the world before."
For those who say it was a prediction of May 14, 1948, how many Jews were born again by faith in Christ on that day?
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Whether Gill was referring to Pentecost or the latter days of the Church you cite has made me unsure. You do have a point as far as that aspect. However, in Rom 11:26 after Pentecost John Gill was definitely talking about a future event in which he says, "relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; "when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come."Quoted from John Gill, who died in 1771 - obviously someone else added in the reference to May 14, 1948, the date when a nation would be born at once, presumably in fulfillment of the prediction of Isaiah 66:8. Gill couldn't have known that Israel would declare independence on that date.
So did Gill believe that a future restoration of Israel as a political, national entity, would be the fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8? Clearly, he did not - he believed that Isaiah's prediction began to be fulfilled by the mass conversion of Jews to Christ recorded in Acts. Gill's commentary on that passage does not say or hint anything about a restoration of the national Israeli state - it is entirely about spiritual conversion of individual Jews. Go and read Gill's original, unedited teaching:
Isaiah 66:8 - Bible Verse Meaning and Commentary
What does Isaiah 66:8 mean? Read commentary on this popular Bible verse and understand the real meaning behind God's Word using John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
Isaiah 66:8
"'Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?' &c.] Such numerous conversions, as after related; suggesting that they were wonderful and surprising, unheard of, what had never been seen in the world before, and which were amazing and astonishing to the church herself; see ( Isaiah 49:21 ) ( 60:8 ) , 'shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? . . . or shall a nation be born at once?' was ever such a thing heard of? yet this will be the case of the Jews in the latter day, when they shall be all converted and saved; and which shall be done suddenly and at once; see ( Hosea 1:10 Hosea 1:11 ) ( Romans 11:25 Romans 11:26 ) , of which the conversion of them, in the first times of the Gospel, was an earnest and pledge, when three thousand were convinced, converted, and regenerated, in one day, under one sermon; and at another time, under the word, two thousand, if not five thousand: thus Christ had, from the womb of the morning, or at the first break of the Gospel day, 'the dew of his youth,' or numbers of souls born again to him, like the drops of the morning dew; see ( Acts 2:41 ) ( 4:4 ) ( Psalms 110:3 ) : 'for as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children.'"
Commentaries by Matthew Poole, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, John Wesley, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Philip Mauro and Wycliffe Bible Commentary all take the view that Isaiah 66:6-8, predicting the birth of a nation in one day, refer to or pre-figure the birth and growth of Christianity in the First Century AD - some of the commentators make special reference to the day of Pentecost.
Philip Mauro, in "The Hope of Israel:" "And beyond all question the 'one day' here foretold is that great day of Pentecost, which was the birthday of that marvellous 'nation,' the like whereof had never been in the world before."
For those who say it was a prediction of May 14, 1948, how many Jews were born again by faith in Christ on that day?
On May 14, 1948, in one day Israel was declared a nation once again that had not been in existence for 2500 years as far as being counted among the nations of the world. Concerning Charles Spurgeon, I believe it is clear he didn't hold to a Post-millennial view as I often read about.
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Uh, what does anything that happened on May 14, 1948 have to do with Gill's prediction that "they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come." Answer, nothing.
If the case for Zionism is so airtight, why is it necessary to misquote and misrepresent John Gill?
Seems like the case for Christian Zionism consists of Old Testament verses yanked totally out of context, predictions that were already fulfilled in ancient times, and citations of verses that do not even exist in the Bible, such as "I will bless them that bless Israel."
If the case for Zionism is so airtight, why is it necessary to misquote and misrepresent John Gill?
Seems like the case for Christian Zionism consists of Old Testament verses yanked totally out of context, predictions that were already fulfilled in ancient times, and citations of verses that do not even exist in the Bible, such as "I will bless them that bless Israel."
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If the verses Gill commented on concerning Ezekiel 38 is referring to Pentecost you are right. Concerning Romans 11 it is obvious the apostle Paul is not referring to Pentecost and there is no reason to believe Gill is either since that was a past event. There is no question that Amos 9:15 referring to Israel being regathered "never to be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God" did not have reference to the Babylonian Captivity because they were driven out again. The Jews make up 0.2% of the world's population. It is a miracle that they have been preserved though scattered around the world for the past 2000 years and in spite of being outnumbered a hundred to one by those who would drive them into the sea they can't be destroyed. To deny the birth of the nation of Israel which took place in 1948 is a miracle is asking everyone to not believe their lying eyes.
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A true Jew is what today is called a “completed Jew” or Jews who have recognized Jesus as their Messiah. In other words a “true Jew” is a physical descendant of Abraham who has converted to Christianity but being a spiritual child of Abraham doesn’t make me a physical Jew. Being one in Christ doesn't mean there are no men and women, Jew and Gentile (Gal 3:28). Equality in Christ doesn’t mean sameness. The prophecies concerning the regathering of physical Jews to their homeland never to be driven out again is literal. The prophecies concerning the physical offspring of Abraham will take place literally. That is just something we will have to disagree on. Peace.
I believe, based on Romans, that Israel will be grafted back into the thing called God's people. Whether they inhabit the land is another thing. I held to that as a rabid dispensationalist, but not any more.
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I'm just curious. You aren't related to Bob Jones Sr. are you? He was born in 1883, the same year as my grandmother was but you don't look young enough to be Bob Jones VI. I had a girlfriend who went to Bob Jones back in the 70's and was intending on enrolling there after my stint with the Army but eventually enrolled later in the Marine Corps.
No, There is a Bob Joens IV who was an editor at Workd Magazine but turned gay. My previous name on here was Bob Jones V, just to keep the name alive. I had to stop posting for a few months and was unable to revive that account, so I made a new one called Bob Jones VI.
You're right. It makes you a real one.
Try as you might to disguise it behind all the trappings of the law, when forced to apply the Scriptures of the New Testament, one cannot escape the eternal fact that the true child of Abraham is the one who would do the works of Abraham, whether he be Egyptian or Hebrew.
Those works are to believe God, and to rejoice to see Christ's Day. In other words, faith. And it was always about faith. It was never about genetics.
The sign of that faith was circumcision, Rom. 4:11. When God called Israel out of Egypt, the stranger that was among them could draw near and eat of the Passover, if he were circumcised. And that stranger was initiated by circumcision into the Abrahamic Covenant, and identified with the congregation of Israel as if he were homeborn. In other words he was no longer a stranger, but a child of Abraham by faith (which is the only way anyone can be reckoned a child of Abraham). And he went out with Israel, and passed through the Red Sea, and was baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and did eat the same spiritual meat; and did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
The true Israel was always spiritual Israel.
Under the law, the thing that made one a 'physical' Jew, to use your words, was circumcision, which was the sign God gave of the Covenant He made with Abraham. Stephen called it 'the Covenant of Circumcision.' If those promises have yet to be fulfilled, if that covenant is still in effect, then circumcision would still be something.
But it isn't. Circumcision is nothing. 1 Cor. 7:19
Why is that?
Because the true circumcision was always spiritual circumcision, for circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, Romans 2:29. Ye [believers] are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: - Colossians 2:11
The true sign of the covenant being spiritual, the true covenant being spiritual, then the true fulfillment of that covenant must be spiritual as well. And indeed we're told just that. Abraham was expecting a city with a firm foundation, whose builder and maker was God. Hebrews 11:10
And here we are.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. - Galatians 4:26
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. - Titus 2:13-14
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, - Hebrews 12:22-23
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. - Revelation 21:2
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You need to go back to Vacation Bible School.
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. - John 19:30
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. - Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. - Revelation 21:6
One day was the work of the Cross. And that was the day that Abraham rejoiced to see. Christ gave birth to the Church, a 'holy nation, a royal priesthood.'
And any who are athirst may come, and take of the water of life freely.
Also, Spurgeon is not pre-Darbian.
The tree (Israel) was never cut down. It was only pruned of her dead branches. There is no promise to graft anyone 'back in.' There is only the warning against the boasting of the newly grafted in branches, lest they think God somehow was a respecter of persons and was making room for them.