Are the numerous mass shootings an evidence of America's moral decline?

[The Rogue Tomato]

Great insight. I used to listen to Michael Savage who was quite libertarian in many ways but not towards Cannibis; he was totally opposed to it despite his political leanings. With a PhD in a pertinent field of study he had his reasons well studied and documented. He sited some of the same facts that you did.

Yeah, I noted that about Michael Savage, and he seems to know his stuff.

But like most other things, I say label it, and the individual has to take responsibility for what he/she does.  If someone wants to screw up his body, there are lots of other legal ways to do it, so why not pot?  It's like blaming ice cream for diabetes. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Yes, I'm for legalizing pot and if you understood all the ramification you might too.  And there's a reason why people of all moral stances can agree on the gay marriage question.  It's because we all agree on the most important aspect of the question; no marriage whether gay or straight has got the slightest thing to do with the government.  Get the government out of the business of regulating/licensing/defining personal relationships.

Also, I didn't say that shacking up isn't a problem in our society.  I said it isn't "the standard" as you say it is.  6,000 women between the ages of 15-44 cohabitating at some point within a 4 year span does not constitute a "standard".

i agree with you on a lot of issues.... but not on the issue of legalizing marijuana.... when i did my research on medical marijuana for a term paper in premed, years ago, i found out that when you strip away all the political talking points from both sides of the issue... and look specifically at what the drug thc does in the human body... and how it makes changes in dna that effect even the offspring of a casual user ... the ramifications for legalizing it and making its use as common as alcoholic beverages are today is much worse than current cost of trying to control it...and when compared to moderate alcohol use the moderate use of marijuana is many times more dangerous with longer lasting effects......  .

i could go into a more detailed description about absorption rates... targeted tissues... pharmacodynamics etc. etc.... but it be would like writing my term paper all over again..... and would take up several pages of the forum.....  but for most people just to learn that it is many times more cancerous than tobacco is enough.... especially in a world where even staunch liberals have declared war on the tobacco industry because of the long term health care costs being passed on to non smokers through increased insurance premiums and the issue of second hand smoke effecting bystanders...........  legalize marijuana and health care costs related to marijuana use will rise for both users an nonusers alike to the point they will make current costs for problems related to other recreational substance use look minor by comparison.....

and on the other issue...  it;s too late to get the government out of the marriage business....  they should have never been invited in....  but what you have to ask yourself is are you comfortable with your church being forced to open it;s doors and make it;s facilities available for gay weddings?...... and are you comfortable with your pastor being told he must either perform such weddings or risk subjecting both himself and the church to lawsuits that could put him out of the ministry and the church out of business?....... because that is what it will come to if gay marriage is legalized .... the gay advocates even admit that;s the next step in their political agenda ..... .. . is that what you want?..... 

I disagree.  There is plenty of information regarding the use of marijuana being safer and less addictive than alcohol or tobacco use.  The facts it, it is the most commonly used illicit drug in the US.  Basically, if you see someone under age fifty, flip a coin. Heads, they’ve smoked pot, tails, they haven’t.  LOL!  It is in wide use and the only ones making money off it being illegal are the drug dealers and the government.  The bigger issue again is, allowing the government to dictate to people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.  It's an individual choice.  Not to mention the fact that cannabis has a lot of medical uses that are being denied to people because it is illegal.  That's something huge to consider. 

And it's not too late to get the government out of the marriage business.  But like anything else it takes time and education because a lot of people don't even realize that it doesn't belong in our personal relationships.  I think that the "gay agenda" thing has been blown completely out of proportion.  It's not about putting churches out of business.  Many of them identify as Christians and attend churches of their own.  And in states where it has been made legal they weren't lining up at churches demanding that they marry them.  They were at courthouses and churches that opened their doors to them.  The fact is, churches have always denied marriage to certain people either because they weren't ready or poor motives or a plethora of other reasons.  They have the right to do that.  I'm not the slightest bit concerned about that but if it happens then churches will have to stand up and fight for their rights just as anyone else whose rights are being trampled. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Basically, you don't continue to infringe on others lives just because they may or may not someday infringe on yours. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Great insight. I used to listen to Michael Savage who was quite libertarian in many ways but not towards Cannibis; he was totally opposed to it despite his political leanings. With a PhD in a pertinent field of study he had his reasons well studied and documented. He sited some of the same facts that you did.

i wrote more posts yesterday in another thread ... that gave a lot more detail.... but then got upset and deleted them all...  :-\ ... but what i wrote today is basically the same.... i;ll never forget the conversation i over heard at the fish auction block when i was working on the boat a couple years ago...... two "bruddahs".. as we call them were talking about the upcoming presidential election.....  one of them said.... "i voted obama the first time.... cuz i thot he was gonna let us smoke weed..... ..but he nevah..... so now i like vote romney cuz at least den we can have gun... "...... somebody should have told them the first time that obama had done his homework on thc and it wasn;t going to happen.... i wonder how many others thought about it they way they did?....  :-\

Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government? 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Basically, you don't continue to infringe on others lives just because they may or may not someday infringe on yours.

"Infringe"???

They've been doin' the tube-steak boogie all along, and nothing has changed that.  Enacting laws just gives them what they want, approval from society, via government sponsorship.  And if you don't think that there's a gay agenda I've got oceanfront property here in southern Ohio to sell you.  The only infringement will be when you call their "love" a sin and find out how long the judge sentences you for hate speech.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ThatGirl]Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government?
[/quote]

Conservatives: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals
Liberals: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals

 

[ALAYMAN]

Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government?

You think the answer to immorality is education?  Adrian Rogers said it best <paraphrased>....."educate a thief and all you have is a smarter criminal".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government?

Yes.  The government has assumed the role of controlling behavior that isn't (potentially) harmful to anyone except the person who partakes.  That's wrong.  This is supposed to be the land of liberty. 

We all know the dangers of smoking tobacco.  Some people choose to ignore them, and some don't.  Some people smoke and live to 100 or more.  Others die of lung cancer.  They were educated on the risks and they should take responsibility for the consequences. 

I don't drink sugary sodas (haven't for decades), but I don't want my government telling me how many ounces of sugary soda I'm allowed to buy. 

As an aside, the government often gets these things wrong, too.  I recently read more people die from low-sodium diets than people who use salt normally.  And yet nanny Bloomberg is still on a crusade to reduce salt in restaurants. 

 

[JrChurch]

Moral decline....in America? 

Someone on a forum asks if numerous mass shootings are an evidence of America's moral decline and people on a fundamental forum declare their support of marijuana and gay marriage. 

What moral decline?

 

[ThatGirl]

Basically, you don't continue to infringe on others lives just because they may or may not someday infringe on yours.

"Infringe"???

They've been doin' the tube-steak boogie all along, and nothing has changed that.  Enacting laws just gives them what they want, approval from society, via government sponsorship.  And if you don't think that there's a gay agenda I've got oceanfront property here in southern Ohio to sell you.

Sure they want approval from society.  Most groups do.  They also want the special rights granted to couples who choose to combine their lives.  Including the right to divorce.  If a gay couple has to part ways for whatever reason, it can be really difficult extracting their lives from each other because they don't have the rights that you and I have if we were faced with the need to dissolve our once committed relationships.  And once again you are misquoting me.  I didn't say there isn't a gay agenda.  I said it's blown out of proportion.  The church is notorious for scare mongering in it's congregations.  It helps to whip people into a frenzy even if it's not completely warranted.  It gets people on your side, at least for a time. 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

[quote author=ThatGirl]Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government?

Conservatives: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals
Liberals: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals
[/quote]

I don't think that's always true. 

There's a graphic that circulates that's mostly true and goes something like this:

When a conservative doesn't like a radio talk show, he changes the station.  Liberals want the talk show host boycotted and taken off the air.

When a conservative doesn't like smoking, he doesn't smoke.  Liberals want smoking banned.

When a conservative is worried about too much salt, he uses less.  Liberals want salt shakers banned from the tables of restaurants.

And so on.

Conservatives DO want some things banned, like abortion.  But that is in keeping with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Conservatives want gay unions banned.  Well, I don't agree with that.  But it's not quite the same thing.  These are generally moral issues, even when Conservatives are wrong.  Liberals just want to control the behavior of everyone. 

 

[ThatGirl]

Moral decline....in America? 

Someone on a forum asks if numerous mass shootings are an evidence of America's moral decline and people on a fundamental forum declare their support of marijuana and gay marriage. 

What moral decline?

You're confusing supporting these things with supporting legalizing these things.  There is a difference.  It's not about whether or not I morally oppose or support gay marriage.  It's about whether I think it's a governments job to be involved in those matters.  Same with pot.  It's not the governments business if people want to smoke flowers no matter what it may or may not do to them.  It DOES have medical properties that are denied to people in states where it is not legal and that is wrong. 

I happen to think that empowering a corrupt, nanny government is immoral.   

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I happen to think that empowering a corrupt, nanny government is immoral. 

Amen and amen.

 

[JrChurch]

I happen to think that empowering a corrupt, nanny government is immoral. 

Absolutely agree.  It is also dangerous.

 

[ThatGirl]

I happen to think that empowering a corrupt, nanny government is immoral. 

Absolutely agree.  It is also dangerous.

And the truth is, the things we've talked about just now are things that people are doing anyway.  The fact that the government is sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong doesn't change the fact that people still get high on pot and live in same sex relationships...so why give the government the power to have say in it? 

 

[ThatGirl]

I have done my homework.  Several decades of it which is why I'm at the conclusion that I'm at now.  I disagree with your conclusions on both counts, Alesh.  You feel passionate about your position and so do I and that's okay.  I'm not here to try to change your perspective.  Just know that there are other ideas on the subject than just the ones you're bringing up.   

 

[ThatGirl]

Moral decline....in America? 

Someone on a forum asks if numerous mass shootings are an evidence of America's moral decline and people on a fundamental forum declare their support of marijuana and gay marriage. 

What moral decline?

nah... there is no moral decline ... :.... .. and none evidenced by anything happening on this christian forum.... unless you consider the fact that 9 years ago when i first joined the old fff i was considered one of the most liberal people there.... and now.... after not changing one single thing that i believe .... i am now considered an ultra conservative and even got called a fundamentalist xer the other day.....  ??? ....... but nah...... no moral decline at all.... :


;D

You?  An Xer?  That made me smile. 

 

[Ransom]

Mass shootings had their beginnings in the 1960s. No you never heard of the mass shootings then,

• Andrew Kehoe, 1926.
• Leung Ying, 1928.
• Howard Unruh, 1949.
• Charles Starkweather, 1958.

There are plenty of instances prior to the 1960s in the U.S. of spree killings of co-workers, neighbours, schoolchildren and the like.

I suspect it gets more press now because with 24-hour news reporting, everything gets more press now.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Moral decline....in America? 

Someone on a forum asks if numerous mass shootings are an evidence of America's moral decline and people on a fundamental forum declare their support of marijuana and gay marriage. 

What moral decline?

nah... there is no moral decline ... :.... .. and none evidenced by anything happening on this christian forum.... unless you consider the fact that 9 years ago when i first joined the old fff i was considered one of the most liberal people there.... and now.... after not changing one single thing that i believe .... i am now considered an ultra conservative and even got called a fundamentalist xer the other day.....  ??? ....... but nah...... no moral decline at all.... :


;D

Me and ale, like many others are to her, are friends.  As such, I may have a little fun and sporting alongside her at others expense, but such is not the case with what I am about to say.  I'm dead serious. Her post is one of the most demonstrative illustrations of how things change, culturally, and religiously.  The fact that the composition of this site thinks that tattoos, boozing, cigarettes, dope-smoking, and a host other things that used to be condemned taboo at best by the evangelical Christian community are now acceptable serves the same purpose.  And watchful young impressionable eyes are reading this forum and ones like it where justification for such things are daily given.  Imagine what they are reading on non-Christian sites, things that lead them into rationalizing Bill Clintonesque sorts of immorality.  She is right on the money, and JrChurch's sarcastic post drives the point home all the more.  A fundamentalist forum where pot and gay marriage are essentially advocated.  It would be laughable if it was not so incredibly sad.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ThatGirl]Don't you think education would be a more effective tool than empowering an already too big nanny government?

Conservatives: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals
Liberals: people who scream about the other side for infringing on the liberty of individuals while doing their best to infringe on the liberty of individuals

I don't think that's always true. 

There's a graphic that circulates that's mostly true and goes something like this:

When a conservative doesn't like a radio talk show, he changes the station.  Liberals want the talk show host boycotted and taken off the air.

When a conservative doesn't like smoking, he doesn't smoke.  Liberals want smoking banned.

When a conservative is worried about too much salt, he uses less.  Liberals want salt shakers banned from the tables of restaurants.

And so on.

Conservatives DO want some things banned, like abortion.  But that is in keeping with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Conservatives want gay unions banned.  Well, I don't agree with that.  But it's not quite the same thing.  These are generally moral issues, even when Conservatives are wrong.  Liberals just want to control the behavior of everyone. [/quote]

Things conservatives want to legislate
private bedroom activities
personal drug use
individual medical decisions
control of education
"conserving" a two-party system
snooping and control of our communications (Hi NSA!)
best practices for torture
family choices
religious practices
transfers of wealth from our citizens to pet States

Yup....they are just as guilty as wanting to control the lives of citizens as the other side. They just choose different things to control.