Another IFB preacher shows his fangs with the sheep

[rsc2a]

[quote author=kaba]I hold it together just by remembering what my parents taught me growing up as a child![/quote]

If you keep making that face, it'll get stuck like that?

 

[Frag]

James Hadinger took an underage girl to a ball game and then for a different kind of game.  Disgusting.  When will our crowd denounce these sorts of perverts and deal with them according to the millstone theory?  This fella's facebook profile says he held a Masters of Ministry from Mike Holloway's "Baptist College of America".  All the tapered haircuts in the world won't keep a heart clean.  Don't get me wrong, God's forgiveness is unmatched, and not out of reach for anybody or any sin, but we have to learn not to be so tolerating/accomodating of such behavior whilst screaming about the liberals and the lack of "standeeeeeeeerds".  Beam and mote and all that.

This church is a couple of hours from me, but a similar story unfolded about another West Virginia (Matt Jarrell) pastor who preached hot and hard to the congregation, then took weekend benders to the bars to pick up women so he could take them out in the woods and rape them.  He hung himself in his jail cell awaiting trial.  He had a previous sexual predator record in Texas, but that didn't stop people from accepting him as their pastor and a "man of God".  Hadinger, on a creepy sidenote, was not only fellow IFBer, but graduated highschool the same year (1987) I did and only about 15 minutes from me (Portsmouth East).


I realize that this sort of vile predatory filth occurs in other denoms, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be cleaning our own house, as judgment begins at the house of God (in our own camp first, before we thinking we've got some mandate to straighten out all the "NEOS".

James Hadinger is connected to Faith Gospel Church -- nondenominational. 


Baptist College of America is a correspondence college -- home study by mail.


But don't let the facts stand in the way of trying to smear Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches......

 

[qwerty]

James Hadinger took an underage girl to a ball game and then for a different kind of game.  Disgusting.  When will our crowd denounce these sorts of perverts and deal with them according to the millstone theory?  This fella's facebook profile says he held a Masters of Ministry from Mike Holloway's "Baptist College of America".  All the tapered haircuts in the world won't keep a heart clean.  Don't get me wrong, God's forgiveness is unmatched, and not out of reach for anybody or any sin, but we have to learn not to be so tolerating/accomodating of such behavior whilst screaming about the liberals and the lack of "standeeeeeeeerds".  Beam and mote and all that.

This church is a couple of hours from me, but a similar story unfolded about another West Virginia (Matt Jarrell) pastor who preached hot and hard to the congregation, then took weekend benders to the bars to pick up women so he could take them out in the woods and rape them.  He hung himself in his jail cell awaiting trial.  He had a previous sexual predator record in Texas, but that didn't stop people from accepting him as their pastor and a "man of God".  Hadinger, on a creepy sidenote, was not only fellow IFBer, but graduated highschool the same year (1987) I did and only about 15 minutes from me (Portsmouth East).


I realize that this sort of vile predatory filth occurs in other denoms, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be cleaning our own house, as judgment begins at the house of God (in our own camp first, before we thinking we've got some mandate to straighten out all the "NEOS".

James Hadinger is connected to Faith Gospel Church -- nondenominational. 


Baptist College of America is a correspondence college -- home study by mail.


But don't let the facts stand in the way of trying to smear Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches......

Killjoy....     

 

[Frag]

Don't get me wrong, if this guy is found guilty, I will personally provide the millstone, short-rope, and boat.  Could put a bullet in the puke and sleep that night. 

Just tired of everyone trying to connect every pervert in the world somehow to IFB.  It is like a game of Seven Degrees of Separation....

 

[kaba]

[quote author=kaba]I hold it together just by remembering what my parents taught me growing up as a child!

If you keep making that face, it'll get stuck like that?
[/quote]

HAHA

 

[Fresh Air]

The stories related by samspade and Boomer are a reflection of the lack of character in Christianity today.  "Be ye holy, as I am holy" has been replaced with "keep your judgmental nose out of my business."

Outstanding statement...

 

[ALAYMAN]

James Hadinger is connected to Faith Gospel Church -- nondenominational. 


Baptist College of America is a correspondence college -- home study by mail.


But don't let the facts stand in the way of trying to smear Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches......

The "facts" were reported by a news agency (WSAZ, at the 40 second mark of the video).  If they improperly identified the church he pastors (as they apparently did in the video) it was an easy mistake to make once I saw that his education was in the world of IFBs.  In addition to that, the area near me that he is from was a hotbed of IFB activity in the timeframe that he was in this area.

Regardless of those "facts",  I was not attempting to smear IFBs, as I am one.  My pastor is a Hyles Grad who still has a good relationship with them.  I could have pulled numerous examples that would fit the bill of my OP.  Those who think that "standards" are a badge of honor and will keep people from "getting too close to the edge" are theological fools.  The Bible is clear, that it takes God's grace and our walking in the Spirit to keep us from falling.  Pride stinks in the nostrils of God, and there are many who think that keeping the list (performance based Christianity) somehow garners them favor with God.  Anathema to that sort of dung.  The sooner our people realize that the sooner we'll have a Christ-centered walk and glorify Him by acknowledging His work in our lives, not our "fundamental militancy".

 

[ALAYMAN]

I offer no condemnation to anyone caught in sin. I've been shown too much grace to not show it to others.

As always, I appreciate the spirit of your posts.


What if those caught in sin are professed Christians, or even ministers, who are unrepentant?

And more to the point, your post (and others too) about the ease with which these wolves slink away and capitalize on the "I" of IFB (autonomy) shouldn't be so easy, and most definitely shouldn't be made easy by our shipping them off and foisting them onto some other unsuspecting congregation.  There needs to be accountability built into the restoration <to fellowship> process.

 

[Frag]

James Hadinger is connected to Faith Gospel Church -- nondenominational. 


Baptist College of America is a correspondence college -- home study by mail.


But don't let the facts stand in the way of trying to smear Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches......

The "facts" were reported by a news agency (WSAZ, at the 40 second mark of the video).  If they improperly identified the church he pastors (as they apparently did in the video) it was an easy mistake to make once I saw that his education was in the world of IFBs.  In addition to that, the area near me that he is from was a hotbed of IFB activity in the timeframe that he was in this area.

Regardless of those "facts",  I was not attempting to smear IFBs, as I am one.  My pastor is a Hyles Grad who still has a good relationship with them.  I could have pulled numerous examples that would fit the bill of my OP.  Those who think that "standards" are a badge of honor and will keep people from "getting too close to the edge" are theological fools.  The Bible is clear, that it takes God's grace and our walking in the Spirit to keep us from falling.  Pride stinks in the nostrils of God, and there are many who think that keeping the list (performance based Christianity) somehow garners them favor with God.  Anathema to that sort of dung.  The sooner our people realize that the sooner we'll have a Christ-centered walk and glorify Him by acknowledging His work in our lives, not our "fundamental militancy".

Forty seconds is about what it took me to google the church and get the FACTS.  Course, again, let's just blame Jack Hyles.  Easier that way.

As for fools, add to your list those who think the Bible sets no standards (nothing more than theological humanist), and those who are foolish enough to forget there is an edge.  Pride displays itself in many ways -- some for having standards, MANY more for NOT having standards.  Same ol stinkin pride either way.  If you do not believe that there is a life-style that forfeits favor with God, you might want to trade in your Evangelical books for a King James Holy Bible and actually study it.  This Christ you speak of "increased in favor with God and man."  Here's hoping you will learn what that means and do the same.

As for "fundamental militancy", never have apologized for that.  If you have never fought for defense of anything, but instead have spent your life giving up ground better men than you have fought to secure, then I don't expect you to understand what it means to be a "good soldier of Jesus Christ."  If you did, you would not have entangled yourself in your supposed sanctified worldliness. 

Keep surfing the web.  May find a story of a purse snatcher whose mother works with a lady whose son's girlfriend used to live across the street from the man who cut the hair of a customer whose brother attends an IFB church!  Then post another "gottcha!!!" thread about it.  Stinkin' standards caused it!!!!

 

[Frag]

I offer no condemnation to anyone caught in sin. I've been shown too much grace to not show it to others. I have to leave the millstones and drownings to God.

That being said, it's not condemnation to say that a pastor who abuses his position has forfeited his right to that position (at least for a while). If a lawyer abuses a client (or has an inappropriate relationship) they face disbarment. If a doctor abuses a patient they face loss of their medical license. Why should a pastor who abuses the trust given to him not face the same consequences?

A Baptist pastor (church of 2400) in my area was recently (in the last 6 months) exposed for having a five year affair with his secretary. After a 30 day rehab, and a couple of months for things to cool down, he has now started a church 5 miles from his old one. I don't believe it's condemnation to say this is wrong.

I totally agree with this post. In fact, I know a similar story about an IFB pastor in Illinois who left his wife for his secretary. He left his church, moved to a town about an hour down the road, and started another church with his new wife. Things like this ought not to be so.

I am all for punishment. Such men ought to be barred from ever pastoring a church, but many continue to do so. Spiritual leaders who engage in sexual misconduct with minors ought to (and do) have a stricter judgment in court. I stop short of condemning them to death. Perhaps castration...but not death.

and this is why so many people see some fundamentalists .. (notice i did not say all).. as being more concerned with the welfare of wolves than with protecting the sheep .... .

when a shepherd catches a wolf attacking the sheep he does not castrate it..  or lock it in a cage for life.. ..  he kills it..  .. he doesn;t even spare his own dogs if they turn from being guardians of the sheep to attackers of them.. .. they get the same reward as the wolf.. .  the shepherd kills them both without hesitation... then he hangs the carcasses from a tree as a warning to all predators..  . . .other wolves, and wolf minded dogs, see it and know what;s in store for them if they choose to attack the sheep.. ... ..  the sheep see it and know they have a shepherd that can defend them..  . ..  ..

unfortunately too many children and teenaged girls growing up in churches today... of many denominations.. don;t have that assurance ... but some denominations do a better job of ministering to the victims of such things than others do.. .  still other denominations put the majority of their efforts into rehabilitating and restoring the perpetrators.. treating the victims like collateral damage... or writing them off as acceptable sacrifices in the greater cause of reforming fallen pastors... and converting shepherds turned wolf back into a shepherds again... . ..... then one day a group of church leaders who have busied themselves in such a way looks up and sees that all the true sheep in their flock are gone ...  all that is left is dogs and wolves...  some of them still wearing the skins of sheep they slaughtered...  . ... and they wonder why...

Nothing here I couldn't say a hearty "AMEN" to.  God help us all do a better job in both prevention, and reaction to these tragedies. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Frag]As for fools, add to your list those who think the Bible sets no standards (nothing more than theological humanist), and those who are foolish enough to forget there is an edge.  Pride displays itself in many ways -- some for having standards, MANY more for NOT having standards.  Same ol stinkin pride either way.  If you do not believe that there is a life-style that forfeits favor with God, you might want to trade in your Evangelical books for a King James Holy Bible and actually study it. [/quote]

How about a NIV? An ESV? NLT?

[quote author=Frag]This Christ you speak of "increased in favor with God and man."  Here's hoping you will learn what that means and do the same.[/quote]

Here's hoping we all do the same.

[quote author=Frag]As for "fundamental militancy", never have apologized for that.  If you have never fought for defense of anything, but instead have spent your life giving up ground better men than you have fought to secure, then I don't expect you to understand what it means to be a "good soldier of Jesus Christ."  If you did, you would not have entangled yourself in your supposed sanctified worldliness.  [/quote]

If I recall, Jesus said that Christians win by dying, not by fighting. I think Paul said something like that too...

 

[Boomer]

I totally agree with this post. In fact, I know a similar story about an IFB pastor in Illinois who left his wife for his secretary. He left his church, moved to a town about an hour down the road, and started another church with his new wife. Things like this ought not to be so.

I am all for punishment. Such men ought to be barred from ever pastoring a church, but many continue to do so. Spiritual leaders who engage in sexual misconduct with minors ought to (and do) have a stricter judgment in court. I stop short of condemning them to death. Perhaps castration...but not death.

and this is why so many people see some fundamentalists .. (notice i did not say all).. as being more concerned with the welfare of wolves than with protecting the sheep .... .

when a shepherd catches a wolf attacking the sheep he does not castrate it..  or lock it in a cage for life.. ..  he kills it.. 

Are you saying that, when a pastor learns of sexual abuse in his congregation, he ought to actually murder the person responsible?
 
I think the wiser thing for him to do would be to call the police (the law requires it in most states) and offer as much disclosure, assistance, and cooperation as possible. If pastors would do this instead of covering up the issue "for the sake of the ministry," the problem would be less prevalent.

- It's one thing for a guy out in a field to shoot a wild animal. It is a whole new ballgame when a pastor guns down a guy in his church. When I say I would favor castration, I mean that the court should be able to order such things as punishment. That idea has actually been discussed in the pubic arena, but it probably will never be signed into law. I would favor it, though.

 

[BALAAM]

James Hadinger is connected to Faith Gospel Church -- nondenominational. 


Baptist College of America is a correspondence college -- home study by mail.


But don't let the facts stand in the way of trying to smear Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches......

The "facts" were reported by a news agency (WSAZ, at the 40 second mark of the video).  If they improperly identified the church he pastors (as they apparently did in the video) it was an easy mistake to make once I saw that his education was in the world of IFBs.  In addition to that, the area near me that he is from was a hotbed of IFB activity in the timeframe that he was in this area.

Regardless of those "facts",  I was not attempting to smear IFBs, as I am one.  My pastor is a Hyles Grad who still has a good relationship with them.  I could have pulled numerous examples that would fit the bill of my OP.  Those who think that "standards" are a badge of honor and will keep people from "getting too close to the edge" are theological fools.  The Bible is clear, that it takes God's grace and our walking in the Spirit to keep us from falling.  Pride stinks in the nostrils of God, and there are many who think that keeping the list (performance based Christianity) somehow garners them favor with God.  Anathema to that sort of dung.  The sooner our people realize that the sooner we'll have a Christ-centered walk and glorify Him by acknowledging His work in our lives, not our "fundamental militancy".

This is actually a rather good post.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Forty seconds is about what it took me to google the church and get the FACTS.

The church shown in the video (apparently erroneously) and the one Hadinger pastored are just minutes apart, and have very similar names.  It was an easy mistake to make.  I was wrong for not doing enough leg-work, but the things mentioned already are enough for a reasonable person to see how the error was made.  But as I said, even admitting to my error, the point of the OP still stands.  I could name dozens of IFB churches that have treated the mannagawd better than a southern baptist who goes to the movies and sings CCM.  There's something wrong with those weights and measures, and the lack of balance is enough for any thinking conscientious Christian to see the hypocrisy and ignorance.

  Course, again, let's just blame Jack Hyles.  Easier that way.

You introduced Hyles,  not me.  Having said that, what he did with Dave Hyles is repugnant and unexcusable.  It's part of the problem of IFBs not dealing Biblically with open and unrepentant sin.  Just as long as they've got the right Bible, high and tight, and support the soulwinning ministry then love covers a multitude of sins.

As for fools, add to your list those who think the Bible sets no standards (nothing more than theological humanist),...

Well, when you actually catch me stating or believing that we aren't to have any standards then you could make that claim against me, but until then, it's nothing more than fanciful imagination that takes the form of fallacious reasoning couched in ad hominem.  I believe that a Christian should live holy, but all the rules and external conformity to group-think in the world won't sanctify an individual. 

  If you do not believe that there is a life-style that forfeits favor with God,...

Yes, God's blessings are found in obedience to Him, but what you fail to apparently realize is that a person who lives that lifestyle of carnality does so because they stopped walking in the Spirit (and not because they quit doing some list of oblgations that preacher heaped on them in a sermon).  Our righteousness, imputed and practical, is because of Christ, not our obedience.  Our obedience results from a living relationship with the vine.  A good Crown graduate told me years ago, before I realized what was wrong with some of the externals performance-based variety of fundys a valuable tip to identify those who don't understand what we're talking about.  He said many of those <Hyles> guys get the fruit before the Root, and he was right.  Looking to a checklist to secure our standing is unadulterated pharisaism.

  This Christ you speak of "increased in favor with God and man."

Did Christ have to become sanctified?  Was Christ imperfect in His humanity?

As for "fundamental militancy", never have apologized for that.  If you have never fought for defense of anything, but instead have spent your life giving up ground better men than you have fought to secure, then I don't expect you to understand what it means to be a "good soldier of Jesus Christ."  If you did, you would not have entangled yourself in your supposed sanctified worldliness. 

"Sanctified worldliness"???  lol, you've went off the edge bro.  Demonizing anybody who dares to disagree with you is part and parcel of the wrong attitude that is at the fabric of the wrong kind of militant fundamentalism.  It's the kind of dung that says culottes are wrong, but gauchos are God's preferred fabric.  It's the insanity that says it's wrong to go to the movies, but it's okay to rent the DVD when it comes out.  It's the bizarre notion that all Christians who don't use the KJV are part of some nefarious plot to become part of a one world religious movement.  Any thinking people who read their Bibles ultimately realize the lunacy inherent in all the little chiefs/popes circling the wagons regarding things that can't even be discerned in the pages of Scripture.

Seriously, drawing such inane distinctions is driving our sect of Christianity into irrelevant oblivion.  The sooner somebody sounds the alarm and the sheeple awaken to the foolishness the better, and our ability to give a coherent defense of the fundamentals of the faith will be strengthened, not watered down.

 

[Boomer]

I totally agree with this post. In fact, I know a similar story about an IFB pastor in Illinois who left his wife for his secretary. He left his church, moved to a town about an hour down the road, and started another church with his new wife. Things like this ought not to be so.

I am all for punishment. Such men ought to be barred from ever pastoring a church, but many continue to do so. Spiritual leaders who engage in sexual misconduct with minors ought to (and do) have a stricter judgment in court. I stop short of condemning them to death. Perhaps castration...but not death.

and this is why so many people see some fundamentalists .. (notice i did not say all).. as being more concerned with the welfare of wolves than with protecting the sheep .... .

when a shepherd catches a wolf attacking the sheep he does not castrate it..  or lock it in a cage for life.. ..  he kills it.. 

Are you saying that, when a pastor learns of sexual abuse in his congregation, he ought to actually murder the person responsible?
 
I think the wiser thing for him to do would be to call the police (the law requires it in most states) and offer as much disclosure, assistance, and cooperation as possible. If pastors would do this instead of covering up the issue "for the sake of the ministry," the problem would be less prevalent.

- It's one thing for a guy out in a field to shoot a wild animal. It is a whole new ballgame when a pastor guns down a guy in his church. When I say I would favor castration, I mean that the court should be able to order such things as punishment. That idea has actually been discussed in the pubic arena, but it probably will never be signed into law. I would favor it, though.

that;s not what i am saying at all.. .. and i think you know that.. ...  i was using it as an example to show the difference between the attitude and heart of a shepherd guarding his flock and the average modern pastor more concerned with "restoring the wolf to fellowship"  than he is with guarding his sheep.. .. of course turning a perpetrator over the police and cooperating with authorities is the right thing to do.... and it;s the civilized equivalent of what a good shepherd has to do in the field... . but how many pastors have refused to do the right thing?.. and done like alayman said .. sending the perp somewhere else.. hiding the crime for the sake of the ministry and hoping the whole thing just goes away?.....  .. or.... turning them over the police and then hoping they get off easy with a minimum sentence or no sentence at all?..... 

Then we are in total agreement. Why did you take my first post to task? Or did I misinterpret the purpose of your post?

 

[samspade]

I offer no condemnation to anyone caught in sin. I've been shown too much grace to not show it to others.

As always, I appreciate the spirit of your posts.


What if those caught in sin are professed Christians, or even ministers, who are unrepentant?

And more to the point, your post (and others too) about the ease with which these wolves slink away and capitalize on the "I" of IFB (autonomy) shouldn't be so easy, and most definitely shouldn't be made easy by our shipping them off and foisting them onto some other unsuspecting congregation.  There needs to be accountability built into the restoration <to fellowship> process.

I think the key word here is "unrepentant." Scripture gives us very clear guidelines for dealing with an unrepentant brother caught in sin. The bigger problem today (as I see it) is a lack of clear understanding what repentance really looks like. It's not just being sorry for a little while, making a few apologies, and then moving on with life. Repentance is an attitude more than an action.

True repentance begins with a humbling. It's first realizing that, not only did I do wrong, my heart was wrong and I need God to change it. And that means a change in my thinking (Rom. 12:1-2), because that is what leads to a heart change. And that isn't an instant, or even quick thing. As a wise counselor put it to me, the environment God uses to change our thinking is time, truth and structure. We have to put ourselves in an environment (structure) where our thinking (as revealed by our behavior) is looked at in the mirror of God's word (truth), and we keep going back to that mirror (time) over and over and adjusting our thinking accordingly. There is nothing quick or easy about it. Reading Psalms 6, 38 and 51 you get a picture of what Godly sorrow and grief over sin means. And how true repentance looks.

What seems to be lacking in most all these cases is true repentance. A truly repentant person will care more about the people they've harmed than themselves. They will demand that the love and support of the church go to their victims, not themselves. They will realize that it is their duty to avoid, to sacrifice, to do whatever they can to not cause their victims any more harm. And it's that attitude that I don't see much of in any of these cases.

 

[Boomer]

I totally agree with this post. In fact, I know a similar story about an IFB pastor in Illinois who left his wife for his secretary. He left his church, moved to a town about an hour down the road, and started another church with his new wife. Things like this ought not to be so.

I am all for punishment. Such men ought to be barred from ever pastoring a church, but many continue to do so. Spiritual leaders who engage in sexual misconduct with minors ought to (and do) have a stricter judgment in court. I stop short of condemning them to death. Perhaps castration...but not death.

and this is why so many people see some fundamentalists .. (notice i did not say all).. as being more concerned with the welfare of wolves than with protecting the sheep .... .

when a shepherd catches a wolf attacking the sheep he does not castrate it..  or lock it in a cage for life.. ..  he kills it.. 

Are you saying that, when a pastor learns of sexual abuse in his congregation, he ought to actually murder the person responsible?
 
I think the wiser thing for him to do would be to call the police (the law requires it in most states) and offer as much disclosure, assistance, and cooperation as possible. If pastors would do this instead of covering up the issue "for the sake of the ministry," the problem would be less prevalent.

- It's one thing for a guy out in a field to shoot a wild animal. It is a whole new ballgame when a pastor guns down a guy in his church. When I say I would favor castration, I mean that the court should be able to order such things as punishment. That idea has actually been discussed in the pubic arena, but it probably will never be signed into law. I would favor it, though.

that;s not what i am saying at all.. .. and i think you know that.. ...  i was using it as an example to show the difference between the attitude and heart of a shepherd guarding his flock and the average modern pastor more concerned with "restoring the wolf to fellowship"  than he is with guarding his sheep.. .. of course turning a perpetrator over the police and cooperating with authorities is the right thing to do.... and it;s the civilized equivalent of what a good shepherd has to do in the field... . but how many pastors have refused to do the right thing?.. and done like alayman said .. sending the perp somewhere else.. hiding the crime for the sake of the ministry and hoping the whole thing just goes away?.....  .. or.... turning them over the police and then hoping they get off easy with a minimum sentence or no sentence at all?..... 

Then we are in total agreement. Why did you take my first post to task? Or did I misinterpret the purpose of your post?

we are in a measure of agreement.... but not total agreement.... unless i totally misunderstood you....

alaymans first post in this thread was about a church leader committing sex crimes against children... ... . you stated you do not believe criminals guilty of such crimes should be put to death...  and agreed with another poster who said he could offer no condemnation to anyone caught in sin... ... ... but to defend your stand you quoted 2 scriptures showing where Jesus did not condemn 2 woman guilty of adultery... a sin of fornication between 2 consenting adults.. ... . .. something that is totally different.. . not even worthy of comparison in my opinion .... ... . .

i realize the conversation probably got confusing at some point... but with all that was being argued and posted it appeared as if you were saying, or at least agreeing with those who said, that there is little or no difference between the sin of adultery and the rape of a child .. ...  and that the same leniency granted to one should be extended to the other... ...... i know that is not what you were saying.... but that is how it started to come across... .. 

it is very hard, sometimes, for the victims of childhood sexual abuse to see fundamental baptists as their friends... .  i explained why in another thread where i wrote about the way fundamentalists, on too many occasions, go all out to reform, and restore, the man who has been a sexual predator.... but leave his many victims, with ruined lives, to fend for themselves.... ..or, send them off to a williams/rolloff type home where they will be abused further, and be taught they are partly to the blame for the crime that was committed against them... .. there they will be taught that the way they dressed or acted, or the music they listened to, caused the "man of god" to lose control of himself and rape them.... . in other words it was all their fault...  ???  ... . the only other group of people i know of that tries to make the victim look guilty in a sex crime, is the lawyers for the defense... .  and they are not the friends of the victims of childhood sexual abuse either....  :-\

We do have a little bit of a breakdown in communication then. It does get confusing the way the quotes work on this new forum compared to the old one.

If I gave the impression that I agree with the man in not condemning someone caught in this type of sin, then I gave the wrong impression. I absolutely condemn such men. I believe they should be brought before a court and then put in jail for a long time. I even advocate castration as a possible punishment in some instances (along with jail - not in place of it).

I also believe that no man guilty of adultery should be allowed to be the pastor of a church. Ever. Such a man has violated the qualifications of a bishop laid out by Paul in the New Testament. I believe that no man who has been caught in a sex crime involving a minor ought to be allowed to serve in any leadership capacity in a church (and should be barred from interaction with any minors). Even if the man has served a jail sentence and repented of his sin, such sins should still disqualify him from serving in a leadership role.

I had a little disagreement with one of the other posters who stated that churches ought to have tanks of water in the parking lot where they drown the perpetrators of sex crimes. This poster also said that the "stoning of adulterers" should take place at the same time (which is why I quoted what Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery).

I disagree with Prophet on the issue of how to punish those caught in the crime. He says kill 'em. I say call the police.

 

[prophet]

I totally agree with this post. In fact, I know a similar story about an IFB pastor in Illinois who left his wife for his secretary. He left his church, moved to a town about an hour down the road, and started another church with his new wife. Things like this ought not to be so.

I am all for punishment. Such men ought to be barred from ever pastoring a church, but many continue to do so. Spiritual leaders who engage in sexual misconduct with minors ought to (and do) have a stricter judgment in court. I stop short of condemning them to death. Perhaps castration...but not death.

and this is why so many people see some fundamentalists .. (notice i did not say all).. as being more concerned with the welfare of wolves than with protecting the sheep .... .

when a shepherd catches a wolf attacking the sheep he does not castrate it..  or lock it in a cage for life.. ..  he kills it.. 

Are you saying that, when a pastor learns of sexual abuse in his congregation, he ought to actually murder the person responsible?
 
I think the wiser thing for him to do would be to call the police (the law requires it in most states) and offer as much disclosure, assistance, and cooperation as possible. If pastors would do this instead of covering up the issue "for the sake of the ministry," the problem would be less prevalent.

- It's one thing for a guy out in a field to shoot a wild animal. It is a whole new ballgame when a pastor guns down a guy in his church. When I say I would favor castration, I mean that the court should be able to order such things as punishment. That idea has actually been discussed in the pubic arena, but it probably will never be signed into law. I would favor it, though.

that;s not what i am saying at all.. .. and i think you know that.. ...  i was using it as an example to show the difference between the attitude and heart of a shepherd guarding his flock and the average modern pastor more concerned with "restoring the wolf to fellowship"  than he is with guarding his sheep.. .. of course turning a perpetrator over the police and cooperating with authorities is the right thing to do.... and it;s the civilized equivalent of what a good shepherd has to do in the field... . but how many pastors have refused to do the right thing?.. and done like alayman said .. sending the perp somewhere else.. hiding the crime for the sake of the ministry and hoping the whole thing just goes away?.....  .. or.... turning them over the police and then hoping they get off easy with a minimum sentence or no sentence at all?..... 

Then we are in total agreement. Why did you take my first post to task? Or did I misinterpret the purpose of your post?

we are in a measure of agreement.... but not total agreement.... unless i totally misunderstood you....

alaymans first post in this thread was about a church leader committing sex crimes against children... ... . you stated you do not believe criminals guilty of such crimes should be put to death...  and agreed with another poster who said he could offer no condemnation to anyone caught in sin... ... ... but to defend your stand you quoted 2 scriptures showing where Jesus did not condemn 2 woman guilty of adultery... a sin of fornication between 2 consenting adults.. ... . .. something that is totally different.. . not even worthy of comparison in my opinion .... ... . .

i realize the conversation probably got confusing at some point... but with all that was being argued and posted it appeared as if you were saying, or at least agreeing with those who said, that there is little or no difference between the sin of adultery and the rape of a child .. ...  and that the same leniency granted to one should be extended to the other... ...... i know that is not what you were saying.... but that is how it started to come across... .. 

it is very hard, sometimes, for the victims of childhood sexual abuse to see fundamental baptists as their friends... .  i explained why in another thread where i wrote about the way fundamentalists, on too many occasions, go all out to reform, and restore, the man who has been a sexual predator.... but leave his many victims, with ruined lives, to fend for themselves.... ..or, send them off to a williams/rolloff type home where they will be abused further, and be taught they are partly to the blame for the crime that was committed against them... .. there they will be taught that the way they dressed or acted, or the music they listened to, caused the "man of god" to lose control of himself and rape them.... . in other words it was all their fault...  ???  ... . the only other group of people i know of that tries to make the victim look guilty in a sex crime, is the lawyers for the defense... .  and they are not the friends of the victims of childhood sexual abuse either....  :-

We do have a little bit of a breakdown in communication then. It does get confusing the way the quotes work on this new forum compared to the old one.

If I gave the impression that I agree with the man in not condemning someone caught in this type of sin, then I gave the wrong impression. I absolutely condemn such men. I believe they should be brought before a court and then put in jail for a long time. I even advocate castration as a possible punishment in some instances (along with jail - not in place of it).

I also believe that no man guilty of adultery should be allowed to be the pastor of a church. Ever. Such a man has violated the qualifications of a bishop laid out by Paul in the New Testament. I believe that no man who has been caught in a sex crime involving a minor ought to be allowed to serve in any leadership capacity in a church (and should be barred from interaction with any minors). Even if the man has served a jail sentence and repented of his sin, such sins should still disqualify him from serving in a leadership role.

I had a little disagreement with one of the other posters who stated that churches ought to have tanks of water in the parking lot where they drown the perpetrators of sex crimes. This poster also said that the "stoning of adulterers" should take place at the same time (which is why I quoted what Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery).

I disagree with Prophet on the issue of how to punish those caught in the crime. He says kill 'em. I say call the police.

  If you knew English, you'd realize that 'condemn' means 'sentence to death, and Hell afterwards'.  You don't 'absolutely condemn' anyone.  You don't 'absolutely' anything.  You are a coward. 
Show me where Jesus taught that the Jews were no longer to stone adulterers.
Show me the context in John 8...the Pharisees intended to trap Him, and He turned the tables.
Show me His purpose for coming...it wasn't as an authority, that trip.
Why is it, do you think, that the Pharisees thought that this situation would provide ought to take Him with?

Anishinabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think the key word here is "unrepentant." Scripture gives us very clear guidelines for dealing with an unrepentant brother caught in sin. The bigger problem today (as I see it) is a lack of clear understanding what repentance really looks like. It's not just being sorry for a little while, making a few apologies, and then moving on with life. Repentance is an attitude more than an action.

True repentance begins with a humbling. It's first realizing that, not only did I do wrong, my heart was wrong and I need God to change it. And that means a change in my thinking (Rom. 12:1-2), because that is what leads to a heart change. And that isn't an instant, or even quick thing. As a wise counselor put it to me, the environment God uses to change our thinking is time, truth and structure. We have to put ourselves in an environment (structure) where our thinking (as revealed by our behavior) is looked at in the mirror of God's word (truth), and we keep going back to that mirror (time) over and over and adjusting our thinking accordingly. There is nothing quick or easy about it. Reading Psalms 6, 38 and 51 you get a picture of what Godly sorrow and grief over sin means. And how true repentance looks.

What seems to be lacking in most all these cases is true repentance. A truly repentant person will care more about the people they've harmed than themselves. They will demand that the love and support of the church go to their victims, not themselves. They will realize that it is their duty to avoid, to sacrifice, to do whatever they can to not cause their victims any more harm. And it's that attitude that I don't see much of in any of these cases.

Mostly agree.

As Boomer said, if the case is one of legal issue, due to a minor being involved, the fella should be jailed and castrated.  I also wouldn't have a problem with the civil authorities making it a capital offense. 

In the case of adults, when clergy prey on those in the pew, without being verbose, the repentant perpertator ought to demonstrate the humility you mentioned, under the umbrella of accountability to the congregation he offended, unless the church (mainly victim) believes that would do more harm than good.  In the event that he goes elsewhere at the church's request, it ought to be agreed upon by the perp that his deeds will be made known to the leader(s) of the church where he will be discipled and restored via an accountability process.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=prophet]If you knew English, you'd realize that 'condemn' means 'sentence to death, and Hell afterwards'.  You don't 'absolutely condemn' anyone.  You don't 'absolutely' anything.  You are a coward.  [/quote]


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