Dictatorial Preacher Rule - Where It All Began

[ALAYMAN]

It depends on who your king is. Is it Jesus? Or is it comfort and safety and retirement security. I am all for planning, I saved for retirement, but there's the question of "What were we left here for? If he saved us just so we could go to heaven, why doesn't he just rapture us the moment we're saved." Anyhow.

Where'd ya get that notion from?

 

[ALAYMAN]

You make some good points. I’ve had some bad experiences with pastors living above the average persons in their town and I just believe that’s wrong.

They were able to go on nice vacations and put back for retirement when the average person in the church couldn’t do either because they were giving 10% of their gross income, giving to missions and every other thing that had to do with the building programs and the such.

Were their needs met? Of course, because they worked 50-60 hours a week and didn’t have the house that the pastor and his family lived in.

Are there churches that do not operate this way? I don’t know, I haven’t walked into one that doesn’t.

I’m not bitter I’m not angry as some would say. At this point in my life I’m just scratching my head and saying….hold up, wait a minute, are y’all seeing what I’m seeing here

Unfortunately in my church, I have been there for over 25 years and never seen one of the three pastors during that tenure, retire and prosper in the way that you described above. Quite the opposite. They served in quiet submission to their calling and sacrificed financially. They were men that had been successful in business and other ventures and could have easily made a lot more money if they didn't answer the call. Some of them became bi-vocational when necessary.

I don't believe the teaching of tithing is a biblical New testament mandate. But I also believe that many Christians do exactly what you're saying about the pastors you've been acquainted with as they live comfortably on their income, to the detriment of giving to the work of the Gospel.

 

[Bruh]

Unfortunately in my church, I have been there for over 25 years and never seen one of the three pastors during that tenure, retire and prosper in the way that you described above. Quite the opposite. They served in quiet submission to their calling and sacrificed financially. They were men that had been successful in business and other ventures and could have easily made a lot more money if they didn't answer the call. Some of them became bi-vocational when necessary.

I don't believe the teaching of tithing is a biblical New testament mandate. But I also believe that many Christians do exactly what you're saying about the pastors you've been acquainted with as they live comfortably on their income, to the detriment of giving to the work of the Gospel.

Sad really. We like the church we go to now. No pressure as in, extra biblical, whatever.

it’s big though and I never would’ve thought I’d be saying that churches can get to big but I believe that now.

I don’t blame the leadership. What are they supposed to do tell the people….no I’m sorry you can’t come in only the first 150 people only

 

[Bob Jones VI]

Where'd ya get that notion from?

Probably heard it from Piper. I was there 15 years. He instilled in me a belief that Missions, the Great Commission is the task that Jesus left us here for. I don't disagree with Bruh, that we should live before people and be a consistent witness. I work for United healthcare. I also believe heartily that I should be involved in the task of getting the gospel to the nations as well as my neighbor. But there are ubengaged people groups. My daughter and son in law are trying to reach one. My son and his wife are preparing to go as well. But the rest of us stay here, and we give to help them do that task.

They're the goers. we are the senders. I love all of you guys and hope I don't come off as angry, ever.

 

[Bruh]

Where'd ya get that notion from?

I’d like to know how many square feet his house is. How about sell it and move into a 500sqft. House and whatever his salary is give 85% to missions. Look all I’m saying is you need to close your eyes and figure out that this world is not what we are to live for.

Oh I’m sorry that would be extreme now wouldn’t it. Take your retirement and give it all to missions. Oh I’m sorry that’s for other people.

Oh I already know you didn’t say it was wrong to save for retirement. So which is it? Give all to Christ or a portion?

People that talk this way usually have a nice nest egg. And if you would’ve been as diligent as they are you could’ve done both. As if all people have the same IQ and are able to make as much as others.

Again, not bitter or angry just have noticed these things the older I’ve gotten.

 

[Ekklesian]

I’d like to know how many square feet his house is. How about sell it and move into a 500sqft. House and whatever his salary is give 85% to missions. Look all I’m saying is you need to close your eyes and figure out that this world is not what we are to live for.

Oh I’m sorry that would be extreme now wouldn’t it. Take your retirement and give it all to missions. Oh I’m sorry that’s for other people.

Oh I already know you didn’t say it was wrong to save for retirement. So which is it? Give all to Christ or a portion?

People that talk this way usually have a nice nest egg. And if you would’ve been as diligent as they are you could’ve done both. As if all people have the same IQ and are able to make as much as others.

Again, not bitter or angry just have noticed these things the older I’ve gotten.

God loveth a cheerful giver. If you can't turn loose of it, God would rather you keep it.

 

[Bruh]

God loveth a cheerful giver. If you can't turn loose of it, God would rather you keep it.

True.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I’d like to know how many square feet his house is. How about sell it and move into a 500sqft. House and whatever his salary is give 85% to missions. Look all I’m saying is you need to close your eyes and figure out that this world is not what we are to live for.

Oh I’m sorry that would be extreme now wouldn’t it. Take your retirement and give it all to missions. Oh I’m sorry that’s for other people.

Oh I already know you didn’t say it was wrong to save for retirement. So which is it? Give all to Christ or a portion?

People that talk this way usually have a nice nest egg. And if you would’ve been as diligent as they are you could’ve done both. As if all people have the same IQ and are able to make as much as others.

Again, not bitter or angry just have noticed these things the older I’ve gotten.

I think you may be mischaracterizing Piper's position. He wasn't saying "Give everything you have" or, "give more than the guy next to you", nor was he saying "give beyond your ability". He was simply saying don't tune out of giving/supporting the gospel just because you get old and quit your day job.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I’d like to know how many square feet his house is. How about sell it and move into a 500sqft. House and whatever his salary is give 85% to missions. Look all I’m saying is you need to close your eyes and figure out that this world is not what we are to live for.

Oh I’m sorry that would be extreme now wouldn’t it. Take your retirement and give it all to missions. Oh I’m sorry that’s for other people.

Oh I already know you didn’t say it was wrong to save for retirement. So which is it? Give all to Christ or a portion?

People that talk this way usually have a nice nest egg. And if you would’ve been as diligent as they are you could’ve done both. As if all people have the same IQ and are able to make as much as others.

Again, not bitter or angry just have noticed these things the older I’ve gotten.

Piper? He lives it. He has never taken one penny of any book royalties. He could be a multi millionaire. He has always given away books for free or whatever people can afford at both the church bookstore and their website. And he lives in the hood and has in the same house for 45 years. He has the smallest salary of anyone at Desiring God (it's public), his current employer, and I know he helps street people all the time. And here's his house in the hood. It's basic.

 

[Bruh]

I think you may be mischaracterizing Piper's position. He wasn't saying "Give everything you have" or, "give more than the guy next to you", nor was he saying "give beyond your ability". He was simply saying don't tune out of giving/supporting the gospel just because you get old and quit your day job.

As long as he understands that’s gonna look different for everyone.

 

[Bruh]

Piper? He lives it. He has never taken one penny of any book royalties. He could be a multi millionaire. He has always given away books for free or whatever people can afford at both the church bookstore and their website. And he lives in the hood and has in the same house for 45 years. He has the smallest salary of anyone at Desiring God (it's public), his current employer, and I know he helps street people all the time. And here's his house in the hood. It's basic.

I’m sure he’s a good man like you and @ALAYMAN and others. I’m sure everything your saying is true.

As I said, I’ve just seen way to much of, give and the leader himself doesn’t. They believe there’re making this huge sacrifice for being in the ministry and the ministry is the highest form of sacrifice for the Lord. And it’s not that just absurd.

I don’t know Piper, he’s never sat at my kitchen table. I’ve enjoyed this back and forth with you and @ALAYMAN

It also makes for good conversations between my wife and I.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I’m sure he’s a good man like you and @ALAYMAN and others. I’m sure everything your saying is true.

As I said, I’ve just seen way to much of, give and the leader himself doesn’t. They believe there’re making this huge sacrifice for being in the ministry and the ministry is the highest form of sacrifice for the Lord. And it’s not that just absurd.

I don’t know Piper, he’s never sat at my kitchen table. I’ve enjoyed this back and forth with you and @ALAYMAN

It also makes for good conversations between my wife and I.

I know Piper. I have lunch with him a couple times a year. He's sat across my kitchen table and talked. Not everyone is in it for grift.

 

[Bruh]

I know Piper. I have lunch with him a couple times a year. He's sat across my kitchen table and talked. Not everyone is in it for grift.

I’m sure you’re correct. I’ve just learned not to put people in that category if I’ve never sat with them.

My place of employment the owner is a big MAGA guy and we talk politics all the time. One day he looks at me and says, Trumps a good guy. I look and him and say, how do you know that?

 

[Walt]

I still say that there are senders and goers, and we should be doing what we can to complete the worldwide mission of Jesus.

True, but this is a far cry from the screeching preachers that browbeat everyone into doing cold-calling because otherwise they are fruitless Christians who are not right with God.

 

[Walt]

Well, I understand what you’re saying, I get it. It that’s a complete different conversation in my mind. And that’s the money it takes to go.

IF, I pay 15% in taxes, let’s just say for example I give to missions, give to the church and thats a total of another 10%.

Combined that with taxes that’s a grand total of 25% gone out of my net income and I haven’t paid for groceries and other living expenses. And I haven’t put back for retirement. Or health insurance

I’m just saying.

Regarding taxes, there is the ~7.5% for Social Security (FICA); most states have an additional tax on what you spend (sales tax). As far as income tax goes, I started years ago of getting into the habit of computing my "real" income tax rate, which is INCOME_TAX_OWED divided by GROSS_INCOME. That's never been anywhere near 15% for me; it has fluctuated between 8.5% and 10.5%.

I do have a serious problem with the screeching preachers who demand that we give to missions from vacation or retirement money, but then the supported missionaries use that money for their own retirement and vacations.

As a preacher once said (and I'm sure many have said this): "It's a heart matter" - if one wants to, one can give SOMETHING to missions.

 

[Walt]

Missionary’s today do not operate by the example giving in scripture.

Perhaps, but some countries forbid people entering as missionaries from taking jobs from the native people, and thus cannot work in the country.

I don't mind totally supporting a missionary, but I don't like to read on social media about all of the wonderful vacations they are having around, say, Europe while I have to struggle to put together a small vacation for the family.

 

[Walt]

Barnabas traveled with Paul. There is nothing to indicate that he worked a full time job.

It doesn't say he didn't, either. He may have been a wealthy believer.

 

[Walt]

You make some good points. I’ve had some bad experiences with pastors living above the average persons in their town and I just believe that’s wrong.

They were able to go on nice vacations and put back for retirement when the average person in the church couldn’t do either because they were giving 10% of their gross income, giving to missions and every other thing that had to do with the building programs and the such.

Were their needs met? Of course, because they worked 50-60 hours a week and didn’t have the house that the pastor and his family lived in.

Are there churches that do not operate this way? I don’t know, I haven’t walked into one that doesn’t.

I’m not bitter I’m not angry as some would say. At this point in my life I’m just scratching my head and saying….hold up, wait a minute, are y’all seeing what I’m seeing here

So true. I remember churches like this. The pastor lived VERY high -- better than the highest wage earners in the church. Plus, because he was "THE PASTOR", he was given a lot of stuff.

But I DO know of churches/pastors the other way: I know a church that the pastor started, and worked multiple jobs while it was starting up. Even after it was established, it was on shaky ground, and the pastor would often skip his salary, or not run his heat in the winter (admittedly mild winters) - his house was chilly, but he didn't want the church to go under. Last I heard, the church is now doing well. I think such rewards will be great for such a man.

I'm not bitter or jealous either... I just thinks something is wrong with the pastor whose standard of living is so high above the others.

 

[Bruh]

Perhaps, but some countries forbid people entering as missionaries from taking jobs from the native people, and thus cannot work in the country.

I don't mind totally supporting a missionary, but I don't like to read on social media about all of the wonderful vacations they are having around, say, Europe while I have to struggle to put together a small vacation for the family.

Ok so, this is exactly all I’m saying. Thank you! Trust me I have very close people in my circle that do just that. And it’s absolutely absurd!!

Don’t get me started

They want you to help their kid go to some foreign land on a missions trip to see if that’s what God wants them to do.

Years ago my wife asked me if we should give to someone to help them go. I told her, if we do something like that it’s gonna be for our kid to have that life experience not theirs.

And at the end of the day that’s all we’re paying for……for them and their children to have great life experiences traveling the country and the world.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I’m sure he’s a good man like you and @ALAYMAN and others. I’m sure everything your saying is true.

As I said, I’ve just seen way to much of, give and the leader himself doesn’t. They believe there’re making this huge sacrifice for being in the ministry and the ministry is the highest form of sacrifice for the Lord. And it’s not that just absurd.

I don’t know Piper, he’s never sat at my kitchen table. I’ve enjoyed this back and forth with you and @ALAYMAN

It also makes for good conversations between my wife and I.

In my years on the FFF, I used to stagger in disbelief at all of the abuse and dictatorial manipulation testimonials. I came to realize that a lot of it was accurate, like that stuff about Bob Gray of Texas. However, just like Bob Jones VI has already told you, not everybody in the ministry is like those bad examples you've dealt with. I have seen three men lead the church that I assist in, and none of them fit the stereotypes of a money grubber and abuser of the sheep.