Would you be so ecumenical so as to...

BTW, don't most church covenants have wording to the effect that members ought to be present for at least Sunday morning services, "unless hindered by circumstances beyond their control"?

I believe sickness, travel, and "works of necessity" (or mercy) are the usual circumstances where not attending church is reasonable.

I'd call being on a boat in the middle of the ocean a justifiable circumstance for not attending worship, if no suitable alternative to your home church can be found.
 
[quote author=brianb]That's not what I meant. Catholics for example don't worship like we worship - they worship through visuals like crosses and rosaries - things based on their Tradition - true worshipers worship God in Spirit and in truth based on the Bible.[/quote]

Every church has symbols. Every church has a liturgy. Every church has tradition, even if it isn't Tradition.

[quote author=brianb]In most Catholic churches you may find one or two that are saved but most often it's not the minister. [/quote]

Fixed.


Although I do hope it is higher than "one or two".

[quote author=brianb]Most of them have a different view of justification - justification through a mix of faith and works.[/quote]

This is untrue for orthodox Catholic beliefs.

And, if this was true, it's no less true among many other churches. What is preached from many pulpits is not grace, but moralistic therapeutic deism, where you better hope you work hard enough to please God or else its judgment, punishment, and eventually damnation for you.

[quote author=brianb]Typically those who are ecumenical are aware that the Roman Catholic church believes this but see it is secondary and not an essential to divide over.[/quote]

My personal essentials: the ecumenical creeds on either side of the filioque clause.

If you wanted to throw in a question of grace vs works, I wouldn't be able to worship with Arminians and a host of others in good conscience. I have serious issues with some matters of Catholic theology, enough where Catholicism would likely be the last Christian church I would join, but if there were no other Christian churches, I would join a Catholic group.

I'm convinced enough in my theology where I will discuss it with others, even debate it. I am not so convinced that I am unwilling to give fair consideration to other viewpoints. I know enough to know that I know very little. The day a man claims to understand God is the day that man has placed God under him.

[quote author=brianb]But there are other reasons I wouldn't worship with someone or some group. For example the pastor could be abusive - I can always find out through other members what it's like visit a church. I can even do an online search - the bad churches are usually the ones that are the most talked about. All these churches believe the five fundamentals but that doesn't mean I would worship with them. There are many that don't want to worship at our church just because they don't like our conservative hymn book music. Music is just as important to those who like contemporary music in church as it is to those who like the older music. I've met few people on both sides of the issue who tolerate or like all kinds of music - not that I'm saying one should like all kinds of music - I don't expect people to listen to Slayer or some of this newer music like from Lamb of God which is a new death metal band - there is a limit.  When you say that one doesn't have to like the same things I agree. There are a few things I don't like about my church but there are many more things I don't like about other churches I've been to which is why I've been at my current church for so many years.[/quote]

Pastoral abuse and music style aren't even remotely in the same category.  :o
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=brianb]That's not what I meant. Catholics for example don't worship like we worship - they worship through visuals like crosses and rosaries - things based on their Tradition - true worshipers worship God in Spirit and in truth based on the Bible.
Click to expand...

Every church has symbols. Every church has a liturgy. Every church has tradition, even if it isn't Tradition.

[quote author=brianb]In most Catholic churches you may find one or two that are saved but most often it's not the minister. [/quote]

Fixed.


Although I do hope it is higher than "one or two".

[quote author=brianb]Most of them have a different view of justification - justification through a mix of faith and works.[/quote]

This is untrue for orthodox Catholic beliefs.

And, if this was true, it's no less true among many other churches. What is preached from many pulpits is not grace, but moralistic therapeutic deism, where you better hope you work hard enough to please God or else its judgment, punishment, and eventually damnation for you.

[quote author=brianb]Typically those who are ecumenical are aware that the Roman Catholic church believes this but see it is secondary and not an essential to divide over.[/quote]

My personal essentials: the ecumenical creeds on either side of the filioque clause.

If you wanted to throw in a question of grace vs works, I wouldn't be able to worship with Arminians and a host of others in good conscience. I have serious issues with some matters of Catholic theology, enough where Catholicism would likely be the last Christian church I would join, but if there were no other Christian churches, I would join a Catholic group.

I'm convinced enough in my theology where I will discuss it with others, even debate it. I am not so convinced that I am unwilling to give fair consideration to other viewpoints. I know enough to know that I know very little. The day a man claims to understand God is the day that man has placed God under him.

[quote author=brianb]But there are other reasons I wouldn't worship with someone or some group. For example the pastor could be abusive - I can always find out through other members what it's like visit a church. I can even do an online search - the bad churches are usually the ones that are the most talked about. All these churches believe the five fundamentals but that doesn't mean I would worship with them. There are many that don't want to worship at our church just because they don't like our conservative hymn book music. Music is just as important to those who like contemporary music in church as it is to those who like the older music. I've met few people on both sides of the issue who tolerate or like all kinds of music - not that I'm saying one should like all kinds of music - I don't expect people to listen to Slayer or some of this newer music like from Lamb of God which is a new death metal band - there is a limit.  When you say that one doesn't have to like the same things I agree. There are a few things I don't like about my church but there are many more things I don't like about other churches I've been to which is why I've been at my current church for so many years.[/quote]

Pastoral abuse and music style aren't even remotely in the same category.  :o
[/quote]

You are correct in that many Protestant churches have a lot of unsaved people but the OP was referring to only Catholic so that's what I'm sticking to.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=brianb]That's not what I meant. Catholics for example don't worship like we worship - they worship through visuals like crosses and rosaries - things based on their Tradition - true worshipers worship God in Spirit and in truth based on the Bible.
Click to expand...

Every church has symbols. Every church has a liturgy. Every church has tradition, even if it isn't Tradition.

[quote author=brianb]In most Catholic churches you may find one or two that are saved but most often it's not the minister. [/quote]

Fixed.


Although I do hope it is higher than "one or two".

[quote author=brianb]Most of them have a different view of justification - justification through a mix of faith and works.[/quote]

This is untrue for orthodox Catholic beliefs.

And, if this was true, it's no less true among many other churches. What is preached from many pulpits is not grace, but moralistic therapeutic deism, where you better hope you work hard enough to please God or else its judgment, punishment, and eventually damnation for you.

[quote author=brianb]Typically those who are ecumenical are aware that the Roman Catholic church believes this but see it is secondary and not an essential to divide over.[/quote]

My personal essentials: the ecumenical creeds on either side of the filioque clause.

If you wanted to throw in a question of grace vs works, I wouldn't be able to worship with Arminians and a host of others in good conscience. I have serious issues with some matters of Catholic theology, enough where Catholicism would likely be the last Christian church I would join, but if there were no other Christian churches, I would join a Catholic group.

I'm convinced enough in my theology where I will discuss it with others, even debate it. I am not so convinced that I am unwilling to give fair consideration to other viewpoints. I know enough to know that I know very little. The day a man claims to understand God is the day that man has placed God under him.

[quote author=brianb]But there are other reasons I wouldn't worship with someone or some group. For example the pastor could be abusive - I can always find out through other members what it's like visit a church. I can even do an online search - the bad churches are usually the ones that are the most talked about. All these churches believe the five fundamentals but that doesn't mean I would worship with them. There are many that don't want to worship at our church just because they don't like our conservative hymn book music. Music is just as important to those who like contemporary music in church as it is to those who like the older music. I've met few people on both sides of the issue who tolerate or like all kinds of music - not that I'm saying one should like all kinds of music - I don't expect people to listen to Slayer or some of this newer music like from Lamb of God which is a new death metal band - there is a limit.  When you say that one doesn't have to like the same things I agree. There are a few things I don't like about my church but there are many more things I don't like about other churches I've been to which is why I've been at my current church for so many years.[/quote]

Pastoral abuse and music style aren't even remotely in the same category.  :o
[/quote]

I never said pastoral abuse and music style were in the same category. I only mentioned music style because it is important to a lot of people. I knew people who left churches including ours because they weren`t conservative enough or because they brought in new music. This is why some churches will have separate services or venues for different styles of music. I can have fellowship with someone who likes a different kind of music - we have them even in our IFB churches but that doesn`t mean I`ll listen to their music or go to their church if they play that kind of music - Usually that`s not the case with IFB churches - most of them have only older styles of music. But some of them may just like listening to contemporary music at home.
 
Ransom said:
BTW, don't most church covenants have wording to the effect that members ought to be present for at least Sunday morning services, "unless hindered by circumstances beyond their control"?

I believe sickness, travel, and "works of necessity" (or mercy) are the usual circumstances where not attending church is reasonable.

I'd call being on a boat in the middle of the ocean a justifiable circumstance for not attending worship, if no suitable alternative to your home church can be found.
Click to expand...

I do think it`s strange that Alayman being an IFB church member would consider going on a sea cruise that includes Sunday. Before I was an IFB it didn`t matter to me what I did on vacation but now I feel differently. The IFB Bible Camp that young people in my church go to every year in fact only has camp from Monday to Friday. This wasn`t the case when I was in Evangelical Fellowship Baptist churches. Camp was always Sunday to Sunday at the camp I went to. Now I don`t know if there is some religious reason for it being on Monday to Friday - it could just be they need a little break between the junior camp and teen camp.

Here`s a question to think about. Better yet what does the Bible say?
Should a married man put his bride first or Christ`s bride first? I know the local church isn`t Christ`s bride but it is supposed to represent Christ`s bride in a small way on earth if it follows his teachings.
 
Ransom said:
BTW, don't most church covenants have wording to the effect that members ought to be present for at least Sunday morning services, "unless hindered by circumstances beyond their control"?
Click to expand...

As I elected to travel on Sunday, it really wouldn't be something that was legitimately "outside of their control", and as such, I also choose to make a reasonable effort to gather with like-minded evangelicals to worship on the Lord's day.  If that's not possible, I'll opt for #3.
 
[quote author=brianb]You are correct in that many Protestant churches have a lot of unsaved people but the OP was referring to only Catholic so that's what I'm sticking to.[/quote]

Fair enough.  :)

[quote author=brianb]I never said pastoral abuse and music style were in the same category. I only mentioned music style because it is important to a lot of people. I knew people who left churches including ours because they weren`t conservative enough or because they brought in new music. This is why some churches will have separate services or venues for different styles of music. I can have fellowship with someone who likes a different kind of music - we have them even in our IFB churches but that doesn`t mean I`ll listen to their music or go to their church if they play that kind of music - Usually that`s not the case with IFB churches - most of them have only older styles of music. But some of them may just like listening to contemporary music at home.[/quote]

Yes. But one is sin and the other is personal preference. In my opinion, to create division over a personal preference is sinful and contrary to the high priestly prayer that "they be one even as we are one". I'm not saying that choosing a church that more closely aligns with your personal preference is bad; I'm saying to refuse to associate with a church because they don't align with your personal preferences is bad.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=brianb]You are correct in that many Protestant churches have a lot of unsaved people but the OP was referring to only Catholic so that's what I'm sticking to.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.  :)

[quote author=brianb]I never said pastoral abuse and music style were in the same category. I only mentioned music style because it is important to a lot of people. I knew people who left churches including ours because they weren`t conservative enough or because they brought in new music. This is why some churches will have separate services or venues for different styles of music. I can have fellowship with someone who likes a different kind of music - we have them even in our IFB churches but that doesn`t mean I`ll listen to their music or go to their church if they play that kind of music - Usually that`s not the case with IFB churches - most of them have only older styles of music. But some of them may just like listening to contemporary music at home.[/quote]

Yes. But one is sin and the other is personal preference. In my opinion, to create division over a personal preference is sinful and contrary to the high priestly prayer that "they be one even as we are one". I'm not saying that choosing a church that more closely aligns with your personal preference is bad; I'm saying to refuse to associate with a church because they don't align with your personal preferences is bad.
[/quote]

I agree with this.  :)
 
As I elected to travel on Sunday, it really wouldn't be something that was legitimately "outside of their control", and as such, I also choose to make a reasonable effort to gather with like-minded evangelicals to worship on the Lord's day.

If we're to take that to its logical end, then we'd have to conclude that it was wrong to travel far enough away from your church to prevent you from returning for the next Sunday. That's obviously silly.
 
ALAYMAN said:
worship with Roman Catholics?


For a little context:
Going on a sea cruise to celebrate ALAYWIFE being gullible enough to stay with me for 20 years :D.  On board the ship they don't have formal organized Christian worship meetings, on Sunday or any other day.  We sail out on Saturday and I don't want to not gather with other believers on the Lord's day.  Some forum chatter has revealed that the Roman Catholics do often have a priest on board who serves the Eucharist and mass.  Questions....


1) Would you attend their service?
2) Would you try to make an attempt at getting other evangelical Christians onboard to meet on Sunday morning?
3) Have "church" with you and your family in your room?
4) Do nothing about Sunday worship, sleep in, get up and go play the slots and have a few extra celebratory beers and rum punch at the day's port of call?
5) Other?
Click to expand...

It isn't obligatory to worship in church on a Sunday. Just spent the morning reading your bible, pray, thank God for the day then enjoy your holiday. Do not go to an idolatrous church service that prays to Mary and sees their leader as God on Earth.

You may as well go to a Synagogue or Mosque instead.
 
Ransom said:
As I elected to travel on Sunday, it really wouldn't be something that was legitimately "outside of their control", and as such, I also choose to make a reasonable effort to gather with like-minded evangelicals to worship on the Lord's day.

If we're to take that to its logical end, then we'd have to conclude that it was wrong to travel far enough away from your church to prevent you from returning for the next Sunday. That's obviously silly.
Click to expand...

Yes. This kind of thing reminds me of the extraneous Sabbath laws that Jesus so blatantly violated time and time again.
 
Ransom said:
As I elected to travel on Sunday, it really wouldn't be something that was legitimately "outside of their control", and as such, I also choose to make a reasonable effort to gather with like-minded evangelicals to worship on the Lord's day.

If we're to take that to its logical end, then we'd have to conclude that it was wrong to travel far enough away from your church to prevent you from returning for the next Sunday. That's obviously silly.
Click to expand...

But I have nowhere stated that it is a commandment of Scripture that one has to be in the church where they hold membership on the Lord's day, so such a "logical end" shouldn't be inferred by my stated preference to be with God's people in joyous corporate worship at least one day in a week.
 
[quote author=thethinkingrebel ]
It isn't obligatory to worship in church on a Sunday. Just spent the morning reading your bible, pray, thank God for the day then enjoy your holiday. Do not go to an idolatrous church service that prays to Mary and sees their leader as God on Earth.

You may as well go to a Synagogue or Mosque instead.
[/quote]

I wasn't actually asking for opinions so that I could form my plan of action, but rather just sampling the crowd to see what their philosophy of worship is, and what *they* would do, but thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.  I'd never participate in the idolatrous mass as a matter of worship.
 
ALAYMAN said:
[quote author=thethinkingrebel ]
It isn't obligatory to worship in church on a Sunday. Just spent the morning reading your bible, pray, thank God for the day then enjoy your holiday. Do not go to an idolatrous church service that prays to Mary and sees their leader as God on Earth.

You may as well go to a Synagogue or Mosque instead.
Click to expand...

I wasn't actually asking for opinions so that I could form my plan of action, but rather just sampling the crowd to see what their philosophy of worship is, and what *they* would do, but thanks for your input and welcome to the forum.  I'd never participate in the idolatrous mass as a matter of worship.
[/quote]

Okay, was just worried you would throw yourself in at the deep end and start carrying a rosary ;)
 
Izdaari said:
Jesus did go to synagogues, and even preached in them! The Messiah was a Jewish rabbi! :P
Click to expand...
But he preachedthe truth that they had rejected. Is this what you are implying one should do if they were to attend a catholic mass, Get up and preach the gospel as no doubt Jesus would do if he was in attendance?
 
Izdaari said:
Jesus did go to synagogues, and even preached in them! The Messiah was a Jewish rabbi! :P
Click to expand...

Yes he did, but there's a new covenant in town, its sealed in Jesus' blood. It works on grace through faith.

To use an analogy: going to a synagogue is like using a broken Nintendo NES when you have a perfectly good Nintendo Wii.

The law is fulfilled! By Jesus!

Not only that, Judaism is corrupted by Pharisaical addons just like Catholicism is corrupted by Papal decrees.

If it don't preach the gospel it ain't worth attending.
 
Ozzy, rebel,

I agree with both you guys. I would really like to hear Jesus preach in a Catholic church, and Catholics should be eager to listen to Him, according to their own doctrine. I agree that He fulfilled the Law.
 
ALAYMAN said:
worship with Roman Catholics?


For a little context:
Going on a sea cruise to celebrate ALAYWIFE being gullible enough to stay with me for 20 years :D.  On board the ship they don't have formal organized Christian worship meetings, on Sunday or any other day.  We sail out on Saturday and I don't want to not gather with other believers on the Lord's day.  Some forum chatter has revealed that the Roman Catholics do often have a priest on board who serves the Eucharist and mass.  Questions....


1) Would you attend their service?
2) Would you try to make an attempt at getting other evangelical Christians onboard to meet on Sunday morning?
3) Have "church" with you and your family in your room?
4) Do nothing about Sunday worship, sleep in, get up and go play the slots and have a few extra celebratory beers and rum punch at the day's port of call?
5) Other?
Click to expand...

I could not. I would try 2 first and, failing that, do 3.
 
ALAYMAN said:
worship with Roman Catholics?


For a little context:
Going on a sea cruise to celebrate ALAYWIFE being gullible enough to stay with me for 20 years :D.  On board the ship they don't have formal organized Christian worship meetings, on Sunday or any other day.  We sail out on Saturday and I don't want to not gather with other believers on the Lord's day.  Some forum chatter has revealed that the Roman Catholics do often have a priest on board who serves the Eucharist and mass.  Questions....


1) Would you attend their service?
2) Would you try to make an attempt at getting other evangelical Christians onboard to meet on Sunday morning?
3) Have "church" with you and your family in your room?
4) Do nothing about Sunday worship, sleep in, get up and go play the slots and have a few extra celebratory beers and rum punch at the day's port of call?
5) Other?
Click to expand...



1) 
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top