Why John MacArthur became a Calvinist.

[Bruh]

Exactly.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?"

So if salvation is dependent upon hearing and believing the Gospel, and calling on Jesus, then on what basis in your theology is an infant--who has no capacity to hear, believe, or call--saved?

He’s clearly speaking to adults. To say he’s speaking to or about infants and or the unborn is speculating.

 

[ALAYMAN]

To expand on what I said earlier, it appears Wesley changed his mind over time, coming to accept the doctrine.

That said, I don't see how one can accept the doctrine of imputation of Christ's righteousness and simultaneously believe you can fall from grace. Such entails that Christ's perfect merit was insufficient, or it only applied to past sins, or in some other sense renders the atonement unable to save someone fully.

Or, that such imputation is contingent upon a faith that is able to be abandoned.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Can anyone cite in Scripture the recording of a child’s conversion or baptism?

 

[Ransom]

He’s clearly speaking to adults. To say he’s speaking to or about infants and or the unborn is speculating.

As is any definitive assertion on the final disposition of the infant or unborn person's soul.

 

[brianb]

I don't think we can fully understand it all this side of heaven and I don't want to get into debate. I know the FFF has for a long time had strong Calvinist leanings.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

I don't think we can fully understand it all this side of heaven and I don't want to get into debate. I know the FFF has for a long time had strong Calvinist leanings.

I’ve long thought that most Calvinists are actually just afraid of the status of their own eternal souls, and Calvinism gives a person a sense of false security by virtue of believing that they are chosen for salvation—a type of pacifier for adults who are psychologically incapable of entertaining the thought of an eternity burning in a pit of fire. As a Calvinist, one must, deep in the recesses of mind, always have that tormenting thought of, “What if I’m not actually chosen, but just think I’m chosen?”

Tell me I’m wrong….Did I just say the quiet part out loud?

 

[aleshanee]

I’ve long thought that most Calvinists are actually just afraid of the status of their own eternal souls, and Calvinism gives a person a sense of false security by virtue of believing that they are chosen for salvation—a type of pacifier for adults who are psychologically incapable of entertaining the thought of an eternity burning in a pit of fire. As a Calvinist, one must, deep in the recesses of mind, always have that tormenting thought of, “What if I’m not actually chosen, but just think I’m chosen?”

Tell me I’m wrong….Did I just say the quiet part out loud?

that;s part of it..... and for some maybe all of it.... .. but there is also an element of calvinists who settled on that persuasion of belief due to being dyed in the wool narcissists.... .. and nothing else... ..... they see God the same way they see themselves... ...and they see themselves as the ultimate logical intellectuals - as near to perfect as mankind can be.... .. .....in their mind their logic is God's logic... .given to them directly by God.. .... .. so they can;t imagine God thinking in a way they couldn;t think themselves.... because in their way of thinking if He did - or could - He would have told them...... ..you might say they see that as a perk of their election....

i am not saying every calvinist is like that... ..not saying any on the forum are either.... .. but the ones i know personally are exactly like that......

 

[Ekklesian]

I’ve long thought that most Calvinists are actually just afraid of the status of their own eternal souls,

How ya copin' with that 'rapture anxiety?'

and Calvinism gives a person a sense of false security

Like the easy believism once-saved-always-saved ABC prayers?

by virtue of believing that they are chosen for salvation—a type of pacifier for adults who are psychologically incapable of entertaining the thought of an eternity burning in a pit of fire. As a Calvinist, one must, deep in the recesses of mind, always have that tormenting thought of, “What if I’m not actually chosen, but just think I’m chosen?”

Tell me I’m wrong….Did I just say the quiet part out loud?

It doesn't matter what brand of soteriology one is convinced of, I know of no true believer who hasn't been plagued with fear and doubt from time to time. Where one looks for assurance is the true test of faith. Are you looking to a Person or to a doctrine?

Many weak Christians perplex themselves with questions and doubts about their election, whether they are of the house of Israel or no; such had better mind their errand to God, and continue instant in prayer for mercy and grace; throw themselves by faith at the feet of Christ, and say, If I perish, I will perish here; and then that matter will by degrees clear itself. If we cannot reason down our unbelief, let us pray it down. A fervent, affectionate Lord, help me, will help us over many of the discouragements which are sometimes ready to bear us down and overwhelm us. — Matthew Henry​

Calvinism, properly understood, is actually very humiliating. It accepts the divine appraisal of man's condition, as totally depraved, at enmity with God, and beyond hope other than the grace of God.

Any other doctrine entertains a point of pride...God's grace plus my will, which must be better by some degree than that in the one unwilling.

But any doctrine, carnally received, is a fountain of pride. Just look at the pride and arrogance gushing from the posts quoted in this one.

that;s part of it..... and for some maybe all of it.... .. but there is also an element of calvinists who settled on that persuasion of belief due to being dyed in the wool narcissists.... .. and nothing else... ..... they see God the same way they see themselves... ...and they see themselves as the ultimate logical intellectuals - as near to perfect as mankind can be.... .. .....in their mind their logic is God's logic... .given to them directly by God.. .... .. so they can;t imagine God thinking in a way they couldn;t think themselves.... because if He did - or could - He would have told them...... ..you might say they see that as a perk of their election....

i am not saying every calvinist is like that... ..not saying any on the forum are either.... .. but the ones i know personally are exactly like that...... .

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

that;s part of it..... and for some maybe all of it.... .. but there is also an element of calvinists who settled on that persuasion of belief due to being dyed in the wool narcissists.... .. and nothing else... ..... they see God the same way they see themselves... ...and they see themselves as the ultimate logical intellectuals - as near to perfect as mankind can be.... .. .....in their mind their logic is God's logic... .given to them directly by God.. .... .. so they can;t imagine God thinking in a way they couldn;t think themselves.... because if He did - or could - He would have told them...... ..you might say they see that as a perk of their election....

i am not saying every calvinist is like that... ..not saying any on the forum are either.... .. but the ones i know personally are exactly like that...... .

I’ve known very few people who openly admit to believing in the idea of predestination. In the circles I grew up in, admission to Calvinism was on par with joining the Catholic Church. (I took some heat for attending Catholic school, but back in those days, there wasn’t a viable alternative nearby, and the public schools in the area weren’t the best. Fast forward thirty years and they do have some good Baptist-affiliated schools where I grew up.)

Anyway, I say all that to say this: as a kid, I didn’t know anyone who admitted to being a Calvinist—at my church or school. My first interaction with a Calvinist was a professor of a religious course I took in college—an elective course, I believe. He’s probably been deceased for years because I think he was near 80 years old way back then, but I definitely remember him for three things: being elderly, being a former Bob Jones University instructor and for being a Calvinist. Back in those days, I pretty much hated anything related to BJU, so I couldn’t believe it when I was sitting in a secular college classroom with a former professor from Bob Jones! I had a brief sidebar conversation with him once after class about predestination and I’ll never forget a comment he made. It went something like this: “Think about every Christian family you’ve ever known, with around an average of three or four kids per family. In every family, there always seems to be a couple of kids who go on to serve the Lord, but then there’s always that one kid who is called the “black sheep,” and she or he just always seems to be in trouble and not follow the same path as the siblings. That’s most likely the non-elected family member.” Many thoughts went through my head, but I left our conversation at that and went on to my next scheduled class.

The second example is a guy I grew up with in IFB church. He was a couple grades ahead of me. Extremely intelligent and talented guy. Whatever he did he was great at: academics, sports, singing, etc. He went on to become a theology professor at a private college in the South. It’s probably been close to fifteen years since we last interacted, but he had become such a staunch Calvinist that he seemed almost smug and indifferent about any type soul winning. I’m paraphrasing here, but he basically indicated that if he shares the Gospel with someone and they don’t accept it, then he’s done his job and that person probably wasn’t elected for salvation to begin with.

In both examples, I left the conversation thinking what a dark, twisted, depressing and diminutive view of God and the Scriptures. I’m no theologian, but I don’t know how in good conscience I could ever go up to a stranger and share with them the most famous verse of the Bible (John 3:16) without thinking it might not apply to the person I’m speaking to.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

How ya copin' with that 'rapture anxiety?'

No issues. You?

Calvinism, properly understood, is actually very humiliating

That hasn’t been my experience.

It doesn't matter what brand of soteriology one is convinced of, I know of no true believer who hasn't been plagued with fear and doubt from time to time.

It doesn’t seem to me you’re convinced you’re one of “the elected.”

 

[Ekklesian]

That hasn’t been my experience.

Yes. You appear quite adept at eluding understanding.

It doesn’t seem to me you’re convinced you’re one of “the elected.”

I know a lot of true believers.

 

[Ekklesian]

In both examples, I left the conversation thinking what a dark, twisted, depressing and diminutive view of God and the Scriptures. I’m no theologian, but I don’t know how in good conscience I could ever go up to a stranger and share with them the most famous verse of the Bible (John 3:16) without thinking it might not apply to the person I’m speaking to.

What a good boy you are!

 

[Ransom]

I’ve long thought that most Calvinists are actually just afraid of the status of their own eternal souls, and Calvinism gives a person a sense of false security by virtue of believing that they are chosen for salvation—a type of pacifier for adults who are psychologically incapable of entertaining the thought of an eternity burning in a pit of fire.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

Assurance, according to the Scriptures, is an objective fact. Which part of that do you think is "Calvinist"?

 

[aleshanee]

I’ve known very few people who openly admit to believing in the idea of predestination. In the circles I grew up in, admission to Calvinism was on par with joining the Catholic Church. (I took some heat for attending Catholic school, but back in those days, there wasn’t a viable alternative nearby, and the public schools in the area weren’t the best. Fast forward thirty years and they do have some good Baptist-affiliated schools where I grew up.)

Anyway, I say all that to say this: as a kid, I didn’t know anyone who admitted to being a Calvinist—at my church or school. My first interaction with a Calvinist was a professor of a religious course I took in college—an elective course, I believe. He’s probably been deceased for years because I think he was near 80 years old way back then, but I definitely remember him for three things: being elderly, being a former Bob Jones University instructor and for being a Calvinist. Back in those days, I pretty much hated anything related to BJU, so I couldn’t believe it when I was sitting in a secular college classroom with a former professor from Bob Jones! I had a brief sidebar conversation with him once after class about predestination and I’ll never forget a comment he made. It went something like this: “Think about every Christian family you’ve ever known, with around an average of three or four kids per family. In every family, there always seems to be a couple of kids who go on to serve the Lord, but then there’s always that one kid who is called the “black sheep,” and she or he just always seems to be in trouble and not follow the same path as the siblings. That’s most likely the non-elected family member.” Many thoughts went through my head, but I left our conversation at that and went on to my next scheduled class.

The second example is a guy I grew up with in IFB church. He was a couple grades ahead of me. Extremely intelligent and talented guy. Whatever he did he was great at: academics, sports, singing, etc. He went on to become a theology professor at a private college in the South. It’s probably been close to fifteen years since we last interacted, but he had become such a staunch Calvinist that he seemed almost smug and indifferent about any type soul winning. I’m paraphrasing here, but he basically indicated that if he shares the Gospel with someone and they don’t accept it, then he’s done his job and that person probably wasn’t elected for salvation to begin with.

In both examples, I left the conversation thinking what a dark, twisted, depressing and diminutive view of God and the Scriptures. I’m no theologian, but I don’t know how in good conscience I could ever go up to a stranger and share with them the most famous verse of the Bible (John 3:16) without thinking it might not apply to the person I’m speaking to.

you are right... it;s a very dark and twisted view of God and the scriptures... . . rooted in the belief that arrogant men can force an omnipotent and eternal God into the confines of human logic... their personal logic... and strutting around with their noses in the air as if they have successfully done it - thus having God completely figured out.....

but ask them to explain what they believe and they can;t.... .they will twist and turn like they are playing an elaborate shell game while telling you the reason you can;t understand calvinism is simply that you are not smart enough.. ... i rmember seeing calvinism described by a calvinist on one of the older versions of the fff as "christianity for intelligent christians".... ...and yet when we point out the pride and arrogance evident in statements like that they will turn it around and call us proud and arrogant..... then they get totally bent out of shape claiming we have misrepresented their calvinst beliefs - the very same beliefs they have never been able to successfully explain..... ....

what is really bad is when some of them claim that if we can;t understand calvinism then it indicates something much worse than we are simply not intelligent... . to them it means we are also not saved.... . not elect.. .... they claim anyone who is truly elect and saved will have a complete understanding of calvinism... and also full acceptance of it.. .. ..not quite an attitude reflective of being "the salt of the earth" Jesus spoke of.... leaves a sour taste in the mouths of most people they interact with....

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

I’ll take it one step further and call Calvinism demonic. To believe in Calvinism and predestination is to assert that God planned both good and bad events, and furthermore, that God allowed people to be born destined for hell. People go to hell for rejecting God, not because God rejected them. To say otherwise is a perversion of the Bible.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

Assurance, according to the Scriptures, is an objective fact. Which part of that do you think is "Calvinist"?

We could spitball verses back and forth until we develop carpel tunnel syndrome. People go to hell for rejecting God, not because God rejected them.

 

[Ransom]

I’ll take it one step further and call Calvinism demonic.

Then from my perspective, what you believe is, of necessity, demonic; and I must treat you as a lost and hellbound apostate, enslaved to a false religion. Is that what you want me to think?

To believe in Calvinism and predestination is to assert that God planned both good and bad events

Correct. "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

and furthermore, that God allowed people to be born destined for hell.

Correct. "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). And, "the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth'" (Romans 9:17).

People go to hell for rejecting God, not because God rejected them.

"Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has also rejected you from being king" (1 Samuel 15:13).

 

[Ransom]

We could spitball verses back and forth until we develop carpel tunnel syndrome.

Could we, though? You made no effort to prove what I said about assurance wrong.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Then from my perspective, what you believe is, of necessity, demonic; and I must treat you as a lost and hellbound apostate, enslaved to a false religion. Is that what you want me to think?

Honestly, it doesn’t bother me if you believe that. I don’t believe in the doctrine of limited atonement. I believe that Calvinism is demonic in the sense that it is a perversion of Scriptures. I’m sure you and the others are genuine Christians who are being influenced by a false teaching. That doesn’t mean you are hell bound. I never said anyone on here is unsaved or going to hell.

Correct. "I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

I don’t believe that the darkness here should be interpreted as evil. We see in 1 Timothy 2:1-4:

1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

When I read this, the idea of Jesus dying on the cross for some men doesn’t come to mind. The idea is for all men. Now, if man rejects the “knowledge of the truth,” then that is not by God’s doing.

 

[Ransom]

Honestly, it doesn’t bother me if you believe that. I don’t believe in the doctrine of limited atonement. I believe that Calvinism is demonic in the sense that it is a perversion of Scriptures. I’m sure you and the others are genuine Christians who are being influenced by a false teaching. That doesn’t mean you are hell bound. I never said anyone on here is unsaved or going to hell.

So believing in demonic doctrines isn't so bad?

I guess you would have to backpedal on that, once you realize the implications for your own doctrine relative to mine.

I don’t believe that the darkness here should be interpreted as evil. We see in 1 Timothy 2:1-4:

Was selling Joseph into slavery evil? God planned that (Genesis 50:20).

Was crucifying Jesus evil? God planned that (Acts 4:27-28).

When I read this, the idea of Jesus dying on the cross for some men doesn’t come to mind. The idea is for all men. Now, if man rejects the “knowledge of the truth,” then that is not by God’s doing.

When the Israelite priests burned the sacrifices brought to them, were they intended to cover the sins of everybody, or just the persons who brought their offering?

On the Day of Atonement, did the high priest make atonement for the Philistines and Amalekites, or just the Israelites?

Jesus is our high priest. Does he make intercession for his own people, the church, or for everyone, inside the faith or out? Did he present himself as an atoning sacrifice for all the pagans only for the Father to tell him it wasn't acceptable?

Put another way: does your church warn unbelievers to pass the Communion elements by? Why? If Christ's body was broken and his blood shed for them just as it was for the church, then every person, faithful or not, partakes in the New Covenant, no?

Put yet another way, every priest intercedes for some men, not all men.