Why John MacArthur became a Calvinist.

[aleshanee]

As it was in the days of Noe. Once the last of the elect have entered the Ark, that is, Christ; the Door will be shut and judgment poured out.

and what makes you so certain you will be inside that ark?... and not out there swimming with the fishes - or drowning with dinosaurs?.....

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

You're not answering the question. You answered the question of why my brother is not willing with "maybe your brother hasn't been willing." There is something prior to willing and underneath it. I say that it is that God has elected certain people, and then gives them the gift of faith. You say that it is within every person to choose. But why do you choose and he does not?

What makes you a better chooser than my brother?

That is what you want me to say, but I cannot speculate on a person I’ve never met or even know exists.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Which makes you a better person by nature than the one who isn't.

Wrong. Romans 3:23 clearly says that ALL have sinned and come short. I’m no better. You are no better. There’s the difference in our viewpoints. As a Calvinist, you indeed think you are better than others.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Sure. That seems to be the most natural reading of John 3:16, for example.

But does God love everyone in the same way, and without distinction? No.

OK, so that pretty much summarizes the difference between us. I believe God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone, while you maintain that God loves everyone on a scale and Jesus died for certain people as opposed to every person.

 

[Ekklesian]

and what makes you so certain you will be inside that ark?... and not out there swimming with the fishes - or drowning with dinosaurs?.....

God told me in the Scriptures that 'whosoever will' may come, and He promised to give the Holy Spirit to any who ask. He cannot lie, and I've found these things to be true.

How 'bout you?

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

no.... it;s not demonic... that;s very different than saying it;s just a matter of personality quirks or differences.... or even personality defects.. .. which we all have in one way or another or to some degree... ..... .... there are people of both calvinist and non-calvinist beliefs that are still devout christians and serving God in great way..... ... rmember most are all going to the same churches together.... . . we just see things differently.... and often for very different reasons.... ..

My own pastor has called Calvinism a “false doctrine” that is “not Scriptural.” He never used the word “demonic,” but if something is false and not Scriptural, I think it goes beyond “personality quirks.” Apparently there are others who agree with me and have even written books on the subject: https://www.theusreview.com/reviews-1/Demonic-Conspiracy-Known-As-Calvinism-by-Ronald-Craig.html

 

[Ekklesian]

Wrong. Romans 3:23 clearly says that ALL have sinned and come short. I’m no better. You are no better. There’s the difference in our viewpoints. As a Calvinist, you indeed think you are better than others.

If the Jews have taught us anything, it's that the doctrine of election in the carnal mind is indeed a windfall of pride and arrogance...a heap of self righteousness resulting in condemnation.

But in one who is spiritually minded, it is love divine and joy unspeakable and full of glory. It is because of that love and joy that the Calvinist preaches and prays, knowing that Christ's sheep know His voice, and will come when He calls.

I’m paraphrasing here, but he basically indicated that if he shares the Gospel with someone and they don’t accept it, then he’s done his job and that person probably wasn’t elected for salvation to begin with...I left the conversation thinking what a dark, twisted, depressing and diminutive view of God and the Scriptures.

I doubt that your friend expressed it as coldly as you're doing here, but if one's conversion depends upon the effort you are putting into it, how do you know when you've done enough? Can you do enough? Are you doing it right enough? What about your own conversion, are you believing just right? Were you earnest enough?

The answer must always be no.

 

[Ekklesian]

My own pastor has called Calvinism a “false doctrine” that is “not Scriptural.” He never used the word “demonic,” but if something is false and not Scriptural, I think it goes beyond “personality quirks.” Apparently there are others who agree with me and have even written books on the subject: https://www.theusreview.com/reviews-1/Demonic-Conspiracy-Known-As-Calvinism-by-Ronald-Craig.html

Saul thought he was serving God when killing Christians too.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

If the Jews have taught us anything, it's that the doctrine of election in the carnal mind is indeed a windfall of pride and arrogance...a heap of self righteousness resulting in condemnation.

But in one who is spiritually minded, it is love divine and joy unspeakable and full of glory. It is because of that love and joy that the Calvinist preaches and prays, knowing that Christ's sheep know His voice, and will come when He calls.


I doubt that your friend expressed it as coldly as you're doing here, but if one's conversion depends upon the effort you are putting into it, how do you know when you've done enough? Can you do enough? Are you doing it right enough? What about your own conversion, are you believing just right? Were you earnest enough?

The answer must always be no.

My last exchange with Ransom pretty much sums up the end of this conversation. Calvinists believe God loves people on a scale and that Jesus only sacrificed himself for some people. On the other hand, I believe God loves everyone equally and Jesus sacrificed himself for all people. People go to hell for rejecting Christ, not because Christ rejected them.

Anything beyond the scope of those points is just arguing in perpetuity.

 

[Ekklesian]

My last exchange with Ransom pretty much sums up the end of this conversation. Calvinists believe God loves people on a scale and that Jesus only sacrificed himself for some people. On the other hand, I believe God loves everyone equally and Jesus sacrificed himself for all people. People go to hell for rejecting Christ, not because Christ rejected them.

Anything beyond the scope of those points is just arguing in perpetuity.

When you stop spouting falsehoods about the doctrine of election, I'll stop correcting you.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

When you stop spouting falsehoods about the doctrine of election, I'll stop correcting you.

OK, cool

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

My own pastor has called Calvinism a “false doctrine” that is “not Scriptural.” He never used the word “demonic,” but if something is false and not Scriptural, I think it goes beyond “personality quirks.” Apparently there are others who agree with me and have even written books on the subject: https://www.theusreview.com/reviews-1/Demonic-Conspiracy-Known-As-Calvinism-by-Ronald-Craig.html

In my experience, those who say Calvinism is not Scriptural never have any actual scripture to back them up. It was through a study of scripture that I became a ‘Calvinist’.

There are many books written about Calvinism…as there are many books written about the King James Version being the one true Bible.

Anyone who studies Scripture can see that God is sovereign over everything and has ‘chosen’ according to the ‘good pleasure of His Will’ through the ages of time.

 

[aleshanee]

God told me in the Scriptures that 'whosoever will' may come, and He promised to give the Holy Spirit to any who ask. He cannot lie, and I've found these things to be true.

How 'bout you?

exactly the same..... so where;s the monkey?...... you claim the same belief learned from the same scriptures i do - yet at the same time you try to say it;s all predestined to be... and that we never had a choice in the matter........... ............. but before you jump into another sarcastic answer to that just understand it was a rhetorical question ..... .. i;ve watched the spinning ...double speak... and flipflops of calvinists when they bark away on this topic for 2 decades now..... and i;ve grown sick of it....... the more any of you calvinists talk about it the less i;m inclined to trust you - on anything.........i am not going to waste my time discussing it all again.... so i would advise you not to waste yours......

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

In my experience, those who say Calvinism is not Scriptural never have any actual scripture to back them up. It was through a study of scripture that I became a ‘Calvinist’.

There are many books written about Calvinism…as there are many books written about the King James Version being the one true Bible.

Anyone who studies Scripture can see that God is sovereign over everything and has ‘chosen’ according to the ‘good pleasure of His Will’ through the ages of time.

As I told Ransom, Ekk, etc., we could spitball pro & con verses back and forth until we develop carpel tunnel syndrome, and we’ll still be on separate sides of the fence. My former, longtime pastor has a doctorate degree in theology from an actual accredited, reputable university (rare in IFB circles), and he was always able to very plainly break down why Calvinism is a misapplication of the Bible. If that’s not good enough for you, we can delve into the Catholic Church with a couple thousand years worth of philosophy and theology that will make you Calvinist boys look like schoolyard children.

 

[Ekklesian]

exactly the same..... so where;s the monkey?...... you claim the same belief learned from the same scriptures i do - yet at the same time you try to say it;s all predestined to be... and that we never had a choice in the matter........... .............

You never had a free choice. By nature you love darkness more than light because your deeds are evil. Left up to you to choose, you will always choose darkness over the Light that has come into the world. So where did your will and love for the light come from?

John 3:21 - But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

but before you jump into another sarcastic answer to that just understand it was a rhetorical question ..... .. i;ve watched the spinning ...double speak... and flipflops of calvinists when they bark away on this topic for decades now..... and i;ve grown sick of it....... the more any of you calvinists talk about it the less i;m inclined to trust you - on anything.........i am not going to waste my time discussing it all again.... so i would advise you not to waste yours......

Calvinism is just the Gospel, and it is never a waste of time to discuss it, even with those who scoff at it.

 

[Ekklesian]

As I told Ransom, Ekk, etc., we could spitball pro & con verses back and forth until we develop carpel tunnel syndrome, and we’ll still be on separate sides of the fence. My former, longtime pastor has a doctorate degree in theology from an actual accredited, reputable university (rare in IFB circles), and he was always able to very plainly break down why Calvinism is a misapplication of the Bible. If that’s not good enough for you, we can delve into the Catholic Church with a couple thousand years worth of philosophy and theology that will make you Calvinist boys look like schoolyard children.

You're not taking any high road, LOL. You came out of the gate breathing accusations and slander, now you want to retreat like a sole clansman in Harlem. Just be a man and take your lumps.

 

[aleshanee]

My own pastor has called Calvinism a “false doctrine” that is “not Scriptural.” He never used the word “demonic,” but if something is false and not Scriptural, I think it goes beyond “personality quirks.” Apparently there are others who agree with me and have even written books on the subject: https://www.theusreview.com/reviews-1/Demonic-Conspiracy-Known-As-Calvinism-by-Ronald-Craig.html

and i can fully understand why he believes that too.... ..calvinism and arguments over "predestination" have been at the center of more church splits than any other cause.... .... many people see it as a false doctrine for that reason alone... ...others see it as a valid doctrine that is misapplied by arrogant men and used to harm fellow christians rather than build them in the faith.... like moses striking the rock for water rather than speaking to it as God commanded... ....

and then others see psychological defects at work in the calvinist mentality... and note that many calvinists were narcissists long before they became calvinists ... and rather than it changing anything in them in a positive way.. calvinism actually strengthened their narcissism.. ...making them intolerant of those around them and insufferable to any who try to interact with them...... .... proud and arrogant to the point of being a repellent to those would come to Christ rather than a shepherd who would lead them to Him......

i know from experience in working with homeless on the streets and victims of abuse for hours each week and sharing the gospel with them that the talking points of calvinism have very little to no use there... ... so why is it such a big issue for so many christians..and the only issue with some of them - to the point of being an obsession?.....

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

and i can fully understand why he believes that too.... ..calvinism and arguments over "predestination" have been at the center of more church splits that any other cause.... .... many people see it as a false doctrine for that reason alone... ...others see it as a valid doctrine that is misapplied by arrogant men and used to harm fellow christians rather than build them in the faith.... like moses striking the rock for water rather than speaking to it as God commanded... ....

and then others see psychological defects at work in the calvinist mentality... and note that many calvinists were narcissists long before they became calvinists ... and rather than it changing anything in them in a positive way.. calvinism actually strengthened their narcissism.. ...making them intolerant of those around them and insufferable to any who try to interact with them...... .... proud and arrogant to the point of being a repellent to those would come to Christ rather than a shepherd who would lead them to Him......

i know from experience in working with homeless on the streets and victims of abuse for hours each week and sharing the gospel with them that the talking points of calvinism have very little to no use there... ... so why is it such a big issue for so many christians..and the only issue some of them to the point of being an obsession?.....

You have made a few references to the relationship between Calvinism and the human psyche, which is very intriguing to me. I plan to research this when time allows. Thank you - this was something I hadn’t previously considered, but it seems to be relevant.

 

[aleshanee]

You never had a free choice. By nature you love darkness more than light because your deeds are evil. Left up to you to choose, you will always choose darkness over the Light that has come into the world. So where did your will and love for the light come from?

John 3:21 - But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

Calvinism is just the Gospel, and it is never a waste of time to discuss it, even with those who scoff at it.

spoken like a true narcissist .... obsessed with yourself and totally useless to the rest of the world... ..you spout scriptures as if they support your arrogant assumptions... but you have no understanding of what you are reading...... ... .. what about you makes up the salt of the earth Jesus spoke of?....... nothing i can see.... ..you have come off as nothing but an antagonist and a shock jockey here ... out to amuse yourself at the expense of the forum..... ....i;m not the only person here who has seen that... ..

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

You're not taking any high road, LOL. You came out of the gate breathing accusations and slander, now you want to retreat like a sole clansman in Harlem. Just be a man and take your lumps.

I’m not retreating, but anything I post is met with immediate denial. I have an army of supporters on my side (namely the RCC). You, friend, are part of the radical fringe group, not me. I’m playing chess while you’re playing marbles.