Why John MacArthur became a Calvinist.

Ekklesian said:
Yeah...this article needs to be clipped from the confession and burned. As written it doesn't have anyone looking to Jesus at all. It doesn't send anyone boldly to the Throne of Grace. It takes one's focus off the Cross, and the worst thing is, it seems to make the gift of the Holy Spirit, that is, His witness to our spirits that we are the children of God, something to be worked for, instead of asked for, as if we can make up for our backsliding with a season of 'behaving,' as you put it.

It does have this...'and by the which [the Spirit], in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.' Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and the birthmark of election.

I said they were unfortunate monikers, because grace is free, and Christ's yoke is easy. What but a devil would rob fallen or weak and timid Christians of the strength those truths lend to their faith?
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Yes. You have been influenced by the Free Grace movement. You may reject their easy believism, but at this point I think you are making a distinction without a difference.

The Confession above is a traditional, biblically driven statement on Assurance of Salvation.

To put it simply, eternal security is guaranteed. Assurance of salvation is not.
 
FSSL said:
Yes. You have been influenced by the Free Grace movement. You may reject their easy believism, but at this point I think you are making a distinction without a difference.

The Confession above is a traditional, biblically driven statement on Assurance of Salvation.

To put it simply, eternal security is guaranteed. Assurance of salvation is not.
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St. John trumps FSSL and the Puritans. There is little difference between that article and the Roman doctrine of Penance.
 
Bob Jones VI said:
Calvinism Threads always cause so much convtroversy. I doubt that anyone will ever have their view changed by an argument on the 'ol FFF
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very true.... and over the years i;ve been involved in more of them than i can count... .joined with other non-cals to fight it out with dozens of calvinist keyboard warriors.. ... and never saw anyones view changed or even altered...

and from what i can see this thread on calvinism is progressing true to form - like so many of them do ... except that this time rather than a calvinist keyboard warrior we have a calvy cut and paste commando joining the fracas for the calvinist side.... a possible supralpsarian from the looks of it.... .

and contrary to what that C&P specialist asserts i have posted and expounded on hundreds of scriptures to support my beliefs in the past on a majority of those previous threads - only to see the calvinists claim i was spinning those scriptures then posting the very same scriptures themselves in return - and spinning them to support their own beliefs...

those would go on for weeks sometimes until eventually we would reach a stalemate on scriptural arguments and the calvinists would revert to arguing from human logic to prove their points... . offering the classic "if this then that - yada yada yada".... ... and 'if this cannot then that cannot either - yada ad nauseum"....

after this went on for a while most of the people on the non-calvinist side would get tired and drop out of the threads - having better things to do.... leaving the calvinists to argue amongst themselves about minor doctrinal disagreements within calvinism.... . until even they lost interest and the thread faded away ....

that is... until the next one got started .. usually by a newby or an old timer gone for a while coming back... and then we all went through it all over again........ but i decided enough is enough a long time ago....

Bob Jones VI said:
But it keeps the place alive.
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true.... but we have to remember that a fungus is also alive... and just like threads on calvinism it keeps coming back too no matter how hard you fight it....
 
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Ekklesian said:
St. John trumps FSSL and the Puritans.
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What John says in his first epistle is that you can have assurance if:

  • you believe the truth;
    Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (2:22-23)​
  • you obey Jesus's commandments; and
    By this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. (2:3-6)​
  • you love the brethren.
    Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. (2:9-10)​

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (5:13). It is possible to know, and hence be assured, that you have eteranl life. But someone who departs from the faith, by not believing the truth, not obeying the Son, or not loving the brethren, cannot be assured of this.
 
aleshanee said:
very true.... and over the years i;ve been involved in more of them than i can count... .joined with other non-cals to fight it out with dozens of calvinist keyboard warriors.. ... and never saw anyones view changed or even altered...

and from what i can see this thread on calvinism is progressing true to form - like so many of them do ... except that this time rather than a calvinist keyboard warrior we have a calvy cut and paste commando joining the fracas for the calvinist side.... a possible supralpsarian from the looks of it.... .

and contrary to what that C&P specialist asserts i have posted and expounded on hundreds of scriptures to support my beliefs in the past on a majority of those previous threads - only to see the calvinists claim i was spinning those scriptures then posting the very same scriptures themselves in return - and spinning them to support their own beliefs...

those would go on for weeks sometimes until eventually we would reach a stalemate on scriptural arguments and the calvinists would revert to arguing from human logic to prove their points... . offering the classic "if this then that - yada yada yada".... ... and 'if this cannot then that cannot either - yada ad nauseum"....

after this went on for a while most of the people on the non-calvinist side would get tired and drop out of the threads - having better things to do.... leaving the calvinists to argue amongst themselves about minor doctrinal disagreements within calvinism.... . until even they lost interest and the thread faded away ....

that is... until the next one got started .. usually by a newby or an old timer gone for a while coming back... and then we all went through it all over again........ but i decided enough is enough a long time ago....


true.... but we have to remember that a fungus is also alive... and just like threads on calvinism it keeps coming back too no matter how hard you fight it....
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LOL. I have always known you were not a Calvinist and I have never even tried to convince you otherwise. I respect you. I I know you don't hold to things you can't support, so I just leave it. even then, I hold my Calvinism lightly. However, I do not hold my gospel lightly.
Christ was born of a virgin.
The Scriptures are inspired and inerrant.
Jesus died for our sins on the cross.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Jesus rose from the dead bodily.
Jesus is coming again.

I'll fight for those.
 
aleshanee said:
very true.... and over the years i;ve been involved in more of them than i can count... .joined with other non-cals to fight it out with dozens of calvinist keyboard warriors.. ... and never saw anyones view changed or even altered...

and from what i can see this thread on calvinism is progressing true to form - like so many of them do ... except that this time rather than a calvinist keyboard warrior we have a calvy cut and paste commando joining the fracas for the calvinist side.... a possible supralpsarian from the looks of it.... .

and contrary to what that C&P specialist asserts i have posted and expounded on hundreds of scriptures to support my beliefs in the past on a majority of those previous threads - only to see the calvinists claim i was spinning those scriptures then posting the very same scriptures themselves in return - and spinning them to support their own beliefs...

those would go on for weeks sometimes until eventually we would reach a stalemate on scriptural arguments and the calvinists would revert to arguing from human logic to prove their points... . offering the classic "if this then that - yada yada yada".... ... and 'if this cannot then that cannot either - yada ad nauseum"....

after this went on for a while most of the people on the non-calvinist side would get tired and drop out of the threads - having better things to do.... leaving the calvinists to argue amongst themselves about minor doctrinal disagreements within calvinism.... . until even they lost interest and the thread faded away ....

that is... until the next one got started .. usually by a newby or an old timer gone for a while coming back... and then we all went through it all over again........ but i decided enough is enough a long time ago....


true.... but we have to remember that a fungus is also alive... and just like threads on calvinism it keeps coming back too no matter how hard you fight it....
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What a dove.
 
Bob Jones VI said:
LOL. I have always known you were not a Calvinist and I have never even tried to convince you otherwise. I respect you. I I know you don't hold to things you can't support, so I just leave it. even then, I hold my Calvinism lightly. However, I do not hold my gospel lightly.
Christ was born of a virgin.
The Scriptures are inspired and inerrant.
Jesus died for our sins on the cross.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Jesus rose from the dead bodily.
Jesus is coming again.

I'll fight for those.
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thanks..... and i agree... .. the fundamentals of the gospel held dear by all of us.... even if we are not a calvinist ... and even if we are not what the forum would consider a fundamentalist.... .
 
Ransom said:
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (5:13). It is possible to know, and hence be assured, that you have eteranl life. But someone who departs from the faith, by not believing the truth, not obeying the Son, or not loving the brethren, cannot be assured of this.
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Well, such aren't really worried about it now are they. Such are self-assured.

The ones who generally worry about it are those who do believe. They tend to be hyper-concious of their sin. They've looked into the mirror of the law, and they abhor themselves. They agonize and mourn over their sin.

Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

They cry out, O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? They must look in faith to the finished work of Christ. Looking to their own works leads only to despair. If your own works are giving you assurance, then you lack faith, because you don't have eyes to see the evil that is present with you in every 'good' you think you're doing.

Faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Faith and assurance are the same thing. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

It is all of Christ, and faith in Him. And faith alone. And it is the Spirit by which we cry Abba, Father! And it is the Spirit that bears witness with our spirits, that we are the children of God. He is called the Comforter for a reason.

And we rest knowing that HE will justify us...He WILL sanctify us...and HE WILL glorify us.

This comfort is there for the asking.

Gotta be well-behaved for a certain season...what a faithless miserable comfort that is. You can have it.
 
Ekklesian said:
Well, such aren't really worried about it now are they. Such are self-assured.

The ones who generally worry about it are those who do believe. They tend to be hyper-concious of their sin. They've looked into the mirror of the law, and they abhor themselves. They agonize and mourn over their sin.

Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

They cry out, O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? They must look in faith to the finished work of Christ. Looking to their own works leads only to despair. If your own works are giving you assurance, then you lack faith, because you don't have eyes to see the evil that is present with you in every 'good' you think you're doing.

Faith is the victory that overcomes the world. Faith and assurance are the same thing. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

It is all of Christ, and faith in Him. And faith alone. And it is the Spirit by which we cry Abba, Father! And it is the Spirit that bears witness with our spirits, that we are the children of God. He is called the Comforter for a reason.

And we rest knowing that HE will justify us...He WILL sanctify us...and HE WILL glorify us.

This comfort is there for the asking.

Gotta be well-behaved for a certain season...what a faithless miserable comfort that is. You can have it.
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... and still ZERO biblical references to a guarantee of assurance.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I meant instigator in its basic meaning - one who causes something to happen.

biscuit quoted John 6:44 earlier in the thread:
“No one can come to be except the Father draws him.”
The word draw" is the Greek word helkúō which has a range of meanings including "to draw, pull, or drag". In John 21:6, the word is used to describe hauling a net full of fish to shore and in Acts 16:19, it's used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace.

Who instigated those actions?
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Yes, of course God is the first mover, and in that sense I agree with your usage of "instigator". His first movement doesn't necessitate irresistibility though. The use of helkuo in Jn 6:44, and it's equivalent usage in Jn 12:32 where "all people" are drawn allow for a universal call.

That argument aside, how do you answer the Acts 17 text regarding some sense of people "seeking" God?
 
Ekklesian said:
The fallacious premise in both of these statements is that assurance is a fruit of something we do, instead of faith in what Christ has done. Faith is the birthmark of election as stated in the letter cited by Ransom, For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. - 1 John 5:4

Whatever builds one's faith, apart from works, builds one's assurance. This is true for everyone no matter one's soteriology. The 'Calvinist scheme' is only 'problematic' if one is looking to the wrong things.
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So, faith in what Christ has done, as you put it, as a basis for assurance, is, or could be, completely devoid of any relationship to obedience unto Christ?
 
ALAYMAN said:
That argument aside, how do you answer the Acts 17 text regarding some sense of people "seeking" God?
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Verse 27? It's not a positive picture. God is "actually not far from each one of us," but they stumble about, groping for him like blind men in the dark. He's right there, making himself known, so they are "without excuse" (Rom. 1:20). They can't find him, because their vision is obscured by a futile search for a god of their understanding, really a god of their imagination. "The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor. 4:4).

Paul didn't literally mean the Athenians had set up an idol to an Unknown God that was accidentally in honour of the true God. The Greeks worshipped a pantheon of idols, and that one was there in case they missed one. They were hedging their bets. He redefined the meaning of the idol for his sermon.
 
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FSSL said:
... and still ZERO biblical references to a guarantee of assurance.
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You wouldn't believe them anyway :LOL:

But don't be so dense. I provided many.

What is faith, but the assurance of things hoped for? You can't have one without the other.
 
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ALAYMAN said:
So, faith in what Christ has done, as you put it, as a basis for assurance, is, or could be, completely devoid of any relationship to obedience unto Christ?
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You bring nothing to the table but filthy rags. If you have a place in Heaven, it is only what Christ has done. If you possess any righteousness it is only what has been imputed to you by Christ.

That's what union with Christ is.
 
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