What is modest?

[Smellin Coffee]

I live and work in the world, where people are people. Nowhere am I more objectified than in the church environment. At work, if I wish to speak to a man, I do. I call him by his first name and he calls me by mine. If I have an idea, I voice it. At church, first I am not encouraged to speak. And if I do, I must be properly deferential to a male, seeing as how I am but a female. The dichotomy is disturbing to me. I wish it could be the same as 'in the world', where I speak to my superiors as if we are colleagues -- for we are -- and where I am not looked upon as inferior for being female. I am judged solely on my merit and contribution, and I am allowed to have merit and contribution.

And this is the major blind spot we Christians tend to have. We tend to judge those who are different from us, whether they be of opposite sex, sexual preference, different religious belief, different standards, different Bible version, etc. And rather than making Christ paramount, we believe we are by setting up standards based on our perspectives and those standards become paramount. Then when anything even remotely differs, we tend to view it with suspicion.

That is just human nature and we are all guilty of it to a degree, I'm sure. However, we Christians do tend to take it too far but in fairness, we don't recognize we are doing it because we are more concerned with "standards" than "people".

(FWIW, the above is a generalization and one can have concerns for both. I just don't think we really do although we think we do.)

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I just wonder why a group of men want to have a discussion about what women to whom they are not married should be wearing?

It might seem like I am joking around with all my contributions to this thread, but my point is...what is your point?

We are attempting to have a discussion (both male and female posters) about Biblical modesty.  We are considering everyone's point of view.  What is the point of any thread?

RAIDER, I'm so disappointed. There is only ONE way, ONE truth. You need to make up the hedge and stand in the gap! Don't compromise by reading that lib'rul material! Put your HACker back on and be a man and not a p***y-footin, back-stabbin', yellow-bellied, compromisin' deadbeat!!!!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I don't know. Why should they be?

Maybe it is because I have daughters and am around sports and cheerleaders (not the NFL kind which I DO belive is immodest due to their attempting to look provocative) and frankly, when the girls don't flaunt, I don't even think about it. I don't believe I'm the only one. On rare occasion I might see a high school kid stare down a girl at a game but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that maybe our overemphasis on modesty makes us look for immodesty and rather than glossing over it, we tend to look for it (not necessarily in a bad way). When we look for a devil behind every rock, we will find one every time. That is just human nature.

Now when a woman dresses in a way to purposely be provocative, that changes the game completely. I don't think it is the attire itself as much as the way it is displayed.

But then again, I'm weird.

I just have trouble believing that God would be pleased with gals wearing glorified underwear while men watch them run.  Perhaps we have become desensitized.

But then again, I'm a stinkin' Hacker!! 

And that is an understandable point. But the way I look at it desensitizing isn't always a bad thing. In this case, being desensitized actually removes the temptation. Does this mean we should deliberately sin to avoid future temptation? Of course not. Take the position of a physician. Does a physician need to see the bodies of members of the opposite sex? Absolutely. It is a necessity for their occupation in the saving of lives. How many naked bodies did they have to be exposed to until they become desensitized?

To be honest, I think that with all the attention we Christians bring to the matter, the more we create in people the objectification of women, though that isn't the intent. Think about it, if you hadn't heard that "toe cleavage is bad", would it even have dawned on you (not suggesting you believe it is)? I believe the enemy has taken our nativity and sincerity in trying to avoid evil and twisted it into our inability to see people as creatures who are loved by our God and created in His image. In essence, like the physician who sees members of the opposite sex as patients in need, we should be looking at people of all genders, sexualities, races physical normalcies and deformities all as being created in God's image. I believe that a bigger problem than immodest attire is the way we look at and view other people.

When you hit your mid-fifties you will be desensitized whether you want to be or not.

Does this mean I am acting older than I am?

 

[bgwilkinson]

I just wonder why a group of men want to have a discussion about what women to whom they are not married should be wearing?

It might seem like I am joking around with all my contributions to this thread, but my point is...what is your point?

We are attempting to have a discussion (both male and female posters) about Biblical modesty.  We are considering everyone's point of view.  What is the point of any thread?

RAIDER, I'm so disappointed. There is only ONE way, ONE truth. You need to make up the hedge and stand in the gap! Don't compromise by reading that lib'rul material! Put your HACker back on and be a man and not a p***y-footin, back-stabbin', yellow-bellied, compromisin' deadbeat!!!!

Did you ever wonder what he meant by "p***y-footin"?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

I just wonder why a group of men want to have a discussion about what women to whom they are not married should be wearing?

It might seem like I am joking around with all my contributions to this thread, but my point is...what is your point?

We are attempting to have a discussion (both male and female posters) about Biblical modesty.  We are considering everyone's point of view.  What is the point of any thread?

RAIDER, I'm so disappointed. There is only ONE way, ONE truth. You need to make up the hedge and stand in the gap! Don't compromise by reading that lib'rul material! Put your HACker back on and be a man and not a p***y-footin, back-stabbin', yellow-bellied, compromisin' deadbeat!!!!

Did you ever wonder what he meant by "p***y footin"?

As a kid I did but then when I became an adult with all that was going on, well...


Remember Bill Harvey had a poem that got written into a song called "The P***Y-Footin' Preacher" Some of the lyrics are stuck in my memory bank:

"He's just a P***Y-footin' preacher and he's not right with God
He's afraid to preach against the sins of men
He'd rather please the crowd than walk where saints have trod
But someday when he faces God, what then?"

 

[prophet]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

Yups.

Tru Dat.

Anishinaabe

 

[Still There]

Many years ago in the workforce women were not allowed to wear pants or pantsuits, I being one of them.  It was suits with skirts or dresses,  no matter what your title was.  From secretary on up.  I worked for one of those companies.  Even up until about 10 years ago.  When the company bellied up I moved on to another company, still under the notion of wearing my business suits.  Boy did I get a rude awakening, called business casual and on Friday jeans.  Hmm.  It took me a long time - a couple of years to change my dress style (it was costly) to conform to their standards.  I still have my suits and even in my new company I still dress up but I don't wear suits.  In the company I work for now, unless BOD are in town no one dresses up.  I do and I like it.  On Friday's and when the boss is out of town, everyone wears jeans and I do too.  It is a totally different dress environment that what it was years ago.  Law firms  in the Chicago area you still have to dress up and jeans are not allowed, but in most corporate offices it's business casual and more peope really do cross that fine line.  Nothing is modest anymore.  I really do dread when summer comes because clothes come off and nothing is left to the imagination anymore and in offices, too.

Women who work in our plant are not allowed to wear dresses. The women in the office may but those that interact with plant machinery are not permitted to do so. Same thing with hoods on jackets and all jewelry (including wedding bands).

Loose clothing on both male and female alike is a higher risk in getting caught on equipment and is a safety hazard.

Plant work is very different than office work and I've worked in both.  I worked in an office of a steel mill where it was very dirty and loud.  You hear a piece of coil steel drop and you and your desk would shake.  I'd wear steel toed shoes to enter the mill.  I've had to wear protective eye and ear wear when I had to go out into the mill.  Jeans and mill wear were the only things allowed in that office. 

As a woman I do dread summer to see the skanky clad women and girls clothing.  It is really repulsing.  I do not allow my daughter to wear these type of clothing.  The sad thing is it's coming to churches too.  Parents are allowing their daughters wear these over board very questionable clothing to church.  Kids coming off the buses are wearing them and seeing the kids walk around the mall in them and seeing the stores selling them.  It just repulses me. 

Okay off the beaten path. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Many years ago in the workforce women were not allowed to wear pants or pantsuits, I being one of them.  It was suits with skirts or dresses,  no matter what your title was.  From secretary on up.  I worked for one of those companies.  Even up until about 10 years ago.  When the company bellied up I moved on to another company, still under the notion of wearing my business suits.  Boy did I get a rude awakening, called business casual and on Friday jeans.  Hmm.  It took me a long time - a couple of years to change my dress style (it was costly) to conform to their standards.  I still have my suits and even in my new company I still dress up but I don't wear suits.  In the company I work for now, unless BOD are in town no one dresses up.  I do and I like it.  On Friday's and when the boss is out of town, everyone wears jeans and I do too.  It is a totally different dress environment that what it was years ago.  Law firms  in the Chicago area you still have to dress up and jeans are not allowed, but in most corporate offices it's business casual and more peope really do cross that fine line.  Nothing is modest anymore.  I really do dread when summer comes because clothes come off and nothing is left to the imagination anymore and in offices, too.

Women who work in our plant are not allowed to wear dresses. The women in the office may but those that interact with plant machinery are not permitted to do so. Same thing with hoods on jackets and all jewelry (including wedding bands).

Loose clothing on both male and female alike is a higher risk in getting caught on equipment and is a safety hazard.

Plant work is very different than office work and I've worked in both.  I worked in an office of a steel mill where it was very dirty and loud.  You hear a piece of coil steel drop and you and your desk would shake.  I'd wear steel toed shoes to enter the mill.  I've had to wear protective eye and ear wear when I had to go out into the mill.  Jeans and mill wear were the only things allowed in that office. 

As a woman I do dread summer to see the skanky clad women and girls clothing.  It is really repulsing.  I do not allow my daughter to wear these type of clothing.  The sad thing is it's coming to churches too.  Parents are allowing their daughters wear these over board very questionable clothing to church.  Kids coming off the buses are wearing them and seeing the kids walk around the mall in them and seeing the stores selling them.  It just repulses me. 

Okay off the beaten path.

I don't allow my daughters to dress provocatively either, though it really hasn't been a battle with them to do so. I just teach my kids to dress not to cause attention or distraction, wherever they are as long as it is appropriate for the occasion.

 

[BALAAM]

I don't know. Why should they be?

Maybe it is because I have daughters and am around sports and cheerleaders (not the NFL kind which I DO belive is immodest due to their attempting to look provocative) and frankly, when the girls don't flaunt, I don't even think about it. I don't believe I'm the only one. On rare occasion I might see a high school kid stare down a girl at a game but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that maybe our overemphasis on modesty makes us look for immodesty and rather than glossing over it, we tend to look for it (not necessarily in a bad way). When we look for a devil behind every rock, we will find one every time. That is just human nature.

Now when a woman dresses in a way to purposely be provocative, that changes the game completely. I don't think it is the attire itself as much as the way it is displayed.

But then again, I'm weird.

I just have trouble believing that God would be pleased with gals wearing glorified underwear while men watch them run.  Perhaps we have become desensitized.

But then again, I'm a stinkin' Hacker!! 

And that is an understandable point. But the way I look at it desensitizing isn't always a bad thing. In this case, being desensitized actually removes the temptation. Does this mean we should deliberately sin to avoid future temptation? Of course not. Take the position of a physician. Does a physician need to see the bodies of members of the opposite sex? Absolutely. It is a necessity for their occupation in the saving of lives. How many naked bodies did they have to be exposed to until they become desensitized?

To be honest, I think that with all the attention we Christians bring to the matter, the more we create in people the objectification of women, though that isn't the intent. Think about it, if you hadn't heard that "toe cleavage is bad", would it even have dawned on you (not suggesting you believe it is)? I believe the enemy has taken our nativity and sincerity in trying to avoid evil and twisted it into our inability to see people as creatures who are loved by our God and created in His image. In essence, like the physician who sees members of the opposite sex as patients in need, we should be looking at people of all genders, sexualities, races physical normalcies and deformities all as being created in God's image. I believe that a bigger problem than immodest attire is the way we look at and view other people.

When you hit your mid-fifties you will be desensitized whether you want to be or not.

Does this mean I am acting older than I am?

When the time comes you won't have to act. Nature happens!

 

[Mathew Ward]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

This is what the text says. The rest is a discussion over a man made doctrine that folks need to perform in order to be right with God.

 

[Timotheus]

I don't know. Why should they be?

Maybe it is because I have daughters and am around sports and cheerleaders (not the NFL kind which I DO belive is immodest due to their attempting to look provocative) and frankly, when the girls don't flaunt, I don't even think about it. I don't believe I'm the only one. On rare occasion I might see a high school kid stare down a girl at a game but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that maybe our overemphasis on modesty makes us look for immodesty and rather than glossing over it, we tend to look for it (not necessarily in a bad way). When we look for a devil behind every rock, we will find one every time. That is just human nature.

Now when a woman dresses in a way to purposely be provocative, that changes the game completely. I don't think it is the attire itself as much as the way it is displayed.

But then again, I'm weird.

I just have trouble believing that God would be pleased with gals wearing glorified underwear while men watch them run.  Perhaps we have become desensitized.

But then again, I'm a stinkin' Hacker!! 

And that is an understandable point. But the way I look at it desensitizing isn't always a bad thing. In this case, being desensitized actually removes the temptation. Does this mean we should deliberately sin to avoid future temptation? Of course not. Take the position of a physician. Does a physician need to see the bodies of members of the opposite sex? Absolutely. It is a necessity for their occupation in the saving of lives. How many naked bodies did they have to be exposed to until they become desensitized?

To be honest, I think that with all the attention we Christians bring to the matter, the more we create in people the objectification of women, though that isn't the intent. Think about it, if you hadn't heard that "toe cleavage is bad", would it even have dawned on you (not suggesting you believe it is)? I believe the enemy has taken our nativity and sincerity in trying to avoid evil and twisted it into our inability to see people as creatures who are loved by our God and created in His image. In essence, like the physician who sees members of the opposite sex as patients in need, we should be looking at people of all genders, sexualities, races physical normalcies and deformities all as being created in God's image. I believe that a bigger problem than immodest attire is the way we look at and view other people.

When you hit your mid-fifties you will be desensitized whether you want to be or not.

So that is what happened to Jack - he hit his mid-fifties. 

 

[BALAAM]

I don't know. Why should they be?

Maybe it is because I have daughters and am around sports and cheerleaders (not the NFL kind which I DO belive is immodest due to their attempting to look provocative) and frankly, when the girls don't flaunt, I don't even think about it. I don't believe I'm the only one. On rare occasion I might see a high school kid stare down a girl at a game but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that maybe our overemphasis on modesty makes us look for immodesty and rather than glossing over it, we tend to look for it (not necessarily in a bad way). When we look for a devil behind every rock, we will find one every time. That is just human nature.

Now when a woman dresses in a way to purposely be provocative, that changes the game completely. I don't think it is the attire itself as much as the way it is displayed.

But then again, I'm weird.

I just have trouble believing that God would be pleased with gals wearing glorified underwear while men watch them run.  Perhaps we have become desensitized.

But then again, I'm a stinkin' Hacker!! 

And that is an understandable point. But the way I look at it desensitizing isn't always a bad thing. In this case, being desensitized actually removes the temptation. Does this mean we should deliberately sin to avoid future temptation? Of course not. Take the position of a physician. Does a physician need to see the bodies of members of the opposite sex? Absolutely. It is a necessity for their occupation in the saving of lives. How many naked bodies did they have to be exposed to until they become desensitized?

To be honest, I think that with all the attention we Christians bring to the matter, the more we create in people the objectification of women, though that isn't the intent. Think about it, if you hadn't heard that "toe cleavage is bad", would it even have dawned on you (not suggesting you believe it is)? I believe the enemy has taken our nativity and sincerity in trying to avoid evil and twisted it into our inability to see people as creatures who are loved by our God and created in His image. In essence, like the physician who sees members of the opposite sex as patients in need, we should be looking at people of all genders, sexualities, races physical normalcies and deformities all as being created in God's image. I believe that a bigger problem than immodest attire is the way we look at and view other people.

When you hit your mid-fifties you will be desensitized whether you want to be or not.

So that is what happened to Jack - he hit his mid-fifties. 

Well, I mean for most people!!!

 

[RAIDER]

I just wonder why a group of men want to have a discussion about what women to whom they are not married should be wearing?

It might seem like I am joking around with all my contributions to this thread, but my point is...what is your point?

We are attempting to have a discussion (both male and female posters) about Biblical modesty.  We are considering everyone's point of view.  What is the point of any thread?

RAIDER, I'm so disappointed. There is only ONE way, ONE truth. You need to make up the hedge and stand in the gap! Don't compromise by reading that lib'rul material! Put your HACker back on and be a man and not a p***y-footin, back-stabbin', yellow-bellied, compromisin' deadbeat!!!!

I stand humbled, sir!

 

[RAIDER]

Did you ever wonder what he meant by "p***y-footin"?

He was referring to a preacher walking softly around something on which he should preach harder.  He was comparring it to a cat walking softly and quietly.

 

[RAIDER]

As a woman I do dread summer to see the skanky clad women and girls clothing.  It is really repulsing.  I do not allow my daughter to wear these type of clothing.  The sad thing is it's coming to churches too.  Parents are allowing their daughters wear these over board very questionable clothing to church.  Kids coming off the buses are wearing them and seeing the kids walk around the mall in them and seeing the stores selling them.  It just repulses me. 

I don't allow my daughters to dress provocatively either, though it really hasn't been a battle with them to do so. I just teach my kids to dress not to cause attention or distraction, wherever they are as long as it is appropriate for the occasion.

Smellin, I notice you say, "appropriate for the occasion".  If the occasion was a female volleyball game would you feel comfortable with your daughters wearing the outfits that they wear today? 

 

[RAIDER]

I am sorry for being "bossy" and suggesting there is no point to your thread, Raider. It is, after all, your desire to discuss the matter. It is my desire that men would stop looking at women as objects, and I like how SC said it.

I agree with the desire you mentioned in the above post..  Realistically though, we live in a world where men are excited by sight.  Yes, some men are perverts and would lust after a woman if she was covered head to toe in a thick gunny sack.  On the other hand, purity of thought is a daily battle for the average man. 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

As a woman I do dread summer to see the skanky clad women and girls clothing.  It is really repulsing.  I do not allow my daughter to wear these type of clothing.  The sad thing is it's coming to churches too.  Parents are allowing their daughters wear these over board very questionable clothing to church.  Kids coming off the buses are wearing them and seeing the kids walk around the mall in them and seeing the stores selling them.  It just repulses me. 

I don't allow my daughters to dress provocatively either, though it really hasn't been a battle with them to do so. I just teach my kids to dress not to cause attention or distraction, wherever they are as long as it is appropriate for the occasion.

Smellin, I notice you say, "appropriate for the occasion".  If the occasion was a female volleyball game would you feel comfortable with your daughters wearing the outfits that they wear today?

Regular gym volleyball, yes. Beach volleyball, no.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Did you ever wonder what he meant by "p***y-footin"?

He was referring to a preacher walking softly around something on which he should preach harder.  He was comparring it to a cat walking softly and quietly.

Ah, yes. When you need a HACker definition, find a HACker for an answer!

 

[RAIDER]

Did you ever wonder what he meant by "p***y-footin"?

He was referring to a preacher walking softly around something on which he should preach harder.  He was comparring it to a cat walking softly and quietly.

Ah, yes. When you need a HACker definition, find a HACker for an answer!

And I nailed it!!

 

[RAIDER]

As a woman I do dread summer to see the skanky clad women and girls clothing.  It is really repulsing.  I do not allow my daughter to wear these type of clothing.  The sad thing is it's coming to churches too.  Parents are allowing their daughters wear these over board very questionable clothing to church.  Kids coming off the buses are wearing them and seeing the kids walk around the mall in them and seeing the stores selling them.  It just repulses me. 

I don't allow my daughters to dress provocatively either, though it really hasn't been a battle with them to do so. I just teach my kids to dress not to cause attention or distraction, wherever they are as long as it is appropriate for the occasion.

Smellin, I notice you say, "appropriate for the occasion".  If the occasion was a female volleyball game would you feel comfortable with your daughters wearing the outfits that they wear today?

Regular gym volleyball, yes. Beach volleyball, no.

I am seeking to get inside Smellin's mind.....be worried, be very worried! 

So you are ok with your daughter playing volleyball in the skin tight short shorts and skin tight tops while boys watch?