What is modest?

[RAIDER]

I realize that we have a host of beliefs on the HAC FFF when it comes to dress standards on ladies.  Some believe that a lady shoud not wear pants.  Some believe it is ok for a lady to wear pants.  Some believe that nothing should be worn above the knee.  Others believe that showing the knee and thigh is ok.  I'm sure I have only covered a fraction of the different beliefs.

I know we could debate all day about Deuteronomy 22:5.  I'm not necessarily wanting this thread to go that direction.  Of course, when has any thread ever gone the direction we want.

I would like us to discuss our thoughts on the following passage:

1 Timothy 2:9-12
King James Version (KJV)

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Where do you draw the line of modesty in woman's dress?  What say ye, Hacker Nation?!!

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

 

[rsc2a]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

Yups.

 

[RAIDER]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

So God was considering the gaudy apperal and excessive jewelry immodest?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

First two definitions from Dictionary.com:

1. having or showing a moderate or humble estimate of one's merits, importance, etc.; free from vanity, egotism, boastfulness, or great pretensions.
2. free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/modest

Paul's definition was exactly in context with the two above definitions.

When we think modest we should think appropriate for the occasion. I wouldn't go to meet the president for a business meeting in a polo shirt and khakis nor would I go to the park to play volleyball in a tuxedo. Neither situation would represent modesty and neither situation is one underdressed.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

So God was considering the gaudy apperal and excessive jewelry immodest?

Well, Paul was.

 

[RAIDER]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

So God was considering the gaudy apperal and excessive jewelry immodest?

Well, Paul was.

Stirring it up again!! 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Paul's admonition in that verse was their OVERDRESSING in gaudy apparel/jewelry.

So God was considering the gaudy apperal and excessive jewelry immodest?

Well, Paul was.

Stirring it up again!! 

Yeah, but that is another argument for another day.

In actuality, I think modesty is defined by the culture and that standard changes.

Now one CAN be underdressed and be considered gaudy by revealing parts of the body that draws inappropriate attention. So in essence, immodesty can mean either underdressed or overdressed.

 

[brainisengaged]

 

[CONSPIRATOR]

Gen. 38

"14 And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face."

So he thought she was a harlot because she covered her face?  Kinda seems counter-intuitive.

People can argue modesty ALL DAY LONG and there will be little consensus regarding what is truly Bible based.  Dresses can be tight, but according to some, still preferred to "mom jeans."  When terms such as "toe cleavage" and "two finger rule" enter in the discussion, look out!  A preacher can preach against shorts because "Psalm 147:10
He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man,"----well, he found a verse to misuse. 

Highly subjective. 

 

[brainisengaged]

I can't BELIEVE they are showing their feet...sheesh, what is this world coming to?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Gen. 38

"14 And she put her widow’s garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face."

So he thought she was a harlot because she covered her face?  Kinda seems counter-intuitive.

<snip>

Highly subjective.

Exactly. Culture plays a part in determining what is or isn't modest. And that changes. 60 years ago, wearing suits to a professional baseball game was commonplace and a part of the culture. Today, people would think you were an exec for one of the ball clubs playing that day.

Culture changes and so does social convention. That is what determines what is modest and what isn't. In Paul's day, perhaps the wealthy who dressed like they were uppity was deemed immodest whereas today in America, driving a Mercedes while flashing bling isn't as much a big deal.

 

[brainisengaged]

 

[brainisengaged]

(sorry, I guess I am having a little too much fun with photos...)

 

[RAIDER]

Here is what "Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible" has to say:

that women adorn themselves in modest apparel: the word rendered "apparel" signifies a long robe, which reaches down to the feet; and the word translated "modest" signifies that which is clean, neat, and decent, yea, beautiful and ornamental; and the sense of the apostle is, that he would not have them to come to public worship in rags, and in dirty and filthy garments, but that their bodies should be covered with clean and decent raiment; so the Israelites washed their clothes that they might be ready to meet the Lord at Mount Sinai, Exodus 19:14. The Jews always appeared in their best clothes on the sabbath day; this is one of their rules: .

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Here is what "Gills Exposition of the Entire Bible" has to say:

that women adorn themselves in modest apparel: the word rendered "apparel" signifies a long robe, which reaches down to the feet; and the word translated "modest" signifies that which is clean, neat, and decent, yea, beautiful and ornamental; and the sense of the apostle is,  so the Israelites washed their clothes that they might be ready to meet the Lord at Mount Sinai, Exodus 19:14. The Jews always appeared in their best clothes on the sabbath day; this is one of their rules: .

I realize you are quoting and it may not necessarily be your opinion but it seems Gill is not interpreting the passage as Paul said it:

Gill:"...that he (Paul) would not have them to come to public worship in rags, and in dirty and filthy garments, but that their bodies should be covered with clean and decent raiment..."

Paul: "...not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array..."

I think Gill is suggesting the opposite of what Paul said.

 

[brainisengaged]

All I know is that my instincts are so often right. I have always found it creepy and controlling when a man says that he purchases/ oversees his wife's clothing. In each case of a man stating this is his practice, he has turned out to be a creep. Most prominent example, Jack Schaap. Other examples are people in my life you would not know. I believe Giada DiLaurentiis' husband is one of those (I buy her clothes and lay out her outfit) types, as well.....

 

[RAIDER]

Just another "copy and paste" thought:

The Scripture says that a woman is to dress modestly, but what exactly does that mean in modern society? Does a woman have to be covered from head to toe? There are cults and religions in the world that demand this of women. But is that the biblical meaning of modesty? Again, we have to go back to the matter of the attitudes of the heart. If a woman’s heart is inclined toward godliness, she will wear clothing that is neither provocative nor revealing in public, clothing that does not reflect negatively upon her personal testimony as a child of God. Even when everyone else in her circle is dressing immodestly, she resists the temptation to go along with the crowd. She knows these types of clothes are designed to draw attention to her body and cause men to lust, but she is wise enough to know that type of attention only cheapens her. The idea of causing men to sin against God because of her dress is abhorrent to her because she seeks to love and honor God and wants others to do the same. Modesty in dress reveals a modesty and godliness of the heart, attitudes that should be the desire of all women who live to please and honor God.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Just another "copy and paste" thought:

The Scripture says that a woman is to dress modestly, but what exactly does that mean in modern society? Does a woman have to be covered from head to toe? There are cults and religions in the world that demand this of women. But is that the biblical meaning of modesty? Again, we have to go back to the matter of the attitudes of the heart. If a woman’s heart is inclined toward godliness, she will wear clothing that is neither provocative nor revealing in public, clothing that does not reflect negatively upon her personal testimony as a child of God. Even when everyone else in her circle is dressing immodestly, she resists the temptation to go along with the crowd. She knows these types of clothes are designed to draw attention to her body and cause men to lust, but she is wise enough to know that type of attention only cheapens her. The idea of causing men to sin against God because of her dress is abhorrent to her because she seeks to love and honor God and wants others to do the same. Modesty in dress reveals a modesty and godliness of the heart, attitudes that should be the desire of all women who live to please and honor God.

Concerning the highlighted, there is some truth to it but it really isn't a blanket truth. For example, some swimwear for men/women are meant to be provocative. Some meant to make the swimmer competetive (in the case of water sports). Some meant simply for comfort at the pool. Each person has to decide for themselves what it is exactly that is modest and what isn't.

 

[brainisengaged]

I think men in suits are very attractive. Maybe if men don't wish to lead me down the lust highway, they had best stop wearing suits...