What could have been done?

[Bruh]

Well of course if they are of the FBCH stripe they know of them. The point is that there are many many IFB churches even in the 80's that didn't know of FBCH/HAC.

Who said anything different than this?

You said, "I somewhat disagree with you somewhat disagreeing.    FBCH/HAC were at the top of the mountain in the eyes of IFB churches OF LIKE BELIEF throughout America.  Yes, I'm sure there were IFB churches of a "different stripe" that had not heard of Jack Hyles and FBCH.  I do not believe this was the norm."

 

[RAIDER]

Well of course if they are of the FBCH stripe they know of them. The point is that there are many many IFB churches even in the 80's that didn't know of FBCH/HAC.

Who said anything different than this?

You said, "I somewhat disagree with you somewhat disagreeing.    FBCH/HAC were at the top of the mountain in the eyes of IFB churches OF LIKE BELIEF throughout America.  Yes, I'm sure there were IFB churches of a "different stripe" that had not heard of Jack Hyles and FBCH.  I do not believe this was the norm."

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  Let me rephrase my question, "Has FBCH said anything different that this?"

 

[cast.sheep]

You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it! 

I don't "come down" on people for the fact that they are bitter.  I come down on people for not also giving credit for any good that they received.  I have an issue with someone who says they attended HAC for 4 years and received nothing good whatsoever.  People read far more into it then I am saying.

During my Christian life I have left 2 churches because of pastoral issues.  I was at both churches for several years.  I was involved in several ministries at both churches.  I could easily be bitter.  I can tell you many problems with the pastors.  While I am glad I made the move to leave both churches, I must admit that I also learned many positive things and both places.

Why is it that bitter people want no one else saying anything good about an institution?

Some people have deep wounds that supersedes any good that was there.  Think of it like this:

A man has an affair.  He's not a bad man....he just gets in a situation and it ends up there.  The woman he has the affair with isn't a horrible woman either.  They are both good people who made a bad mistake.  They get caught and repent.  Both have spouses that want to make it work so they try.

Do you think the man's faithful wife wants to EVER hear anything good about the woman that was sleeping with her husband????  All she can see is the nearly unbearable hurt caused by the situation.  Any good the "other" woman may have done is lost forever in the eyes of the faithful wife.

I realize these two scenarios are not exactly the same.  I'm just trying to point out that hurt people react in ways that people who have never been there can never understand.  The hurt/bitter person needs time to grieve and get through it.  Some do and some don't.  We all should, of course.  We have the Lord.  But.....the reality is that people react different ways.  If FBCH/HAC/pastors/people/etc. never seriously wounded you....yay!  You have some great memories that you will take with you on your journey.  Other people...not so much.

By the way....my good hubby has never had an ounce of bitterness over his wounds.  And, yes, he has them.  He's the greatest!  He inspires me daily.

I appreciate the illustration, but I agree that it is not exactly the same.  Let me come from another angle.  I'll take a chance on this one.  Your husband has obviously been hurt by HAC/FBCH.  If I know him like I think I do, he would tell you the negative, but he would also tell you the good he learned.

BTW, I do have some bad HAC memories.  In my case they do not erase all of the good.

My husband has hurts, but not many.  Nothing compared to others.  He has mostly good memories and even with the hurts, he has never had an ounce of bitterness.  I think he has handled it all correctly and wisely.  But, he is a very wise and stable man.  Others are not so lucky.  And you know what, my own husband doesn't really understand why people are bitter.  haha!  But, I do.  And it is in my nature to stand up for hurting people.  I recognize the hurts and want to defend them.  If I feel like they are being attacked, I will step in and try to help.  I get scarred up in the process, but it's worth it to me.  And lest I make myself sound like I am some kind of saint....I'm not! ha!  I just "get it". 

 

[RAIDER]

And it is in my nature to stand up for hurting people.  I recognize the hurts and want to defend them.  If I feel like they are being attacked, I will step in and try to help.  I get scarred up in the process, but it's worth it to me.  And lest I make myself sound like I am some kind of saint....I'm not! ha!  I just "get it".

I guess this is what I am saying.  The hurting people need to be defended.  I definitely am not saying that there aren't people who have been hurt by HAC/FBCH.  There are many.  They need help, encouragement, and comfort.

On the other hand, because someone has been hurt (of which I had no idea) is not reason that I have to say that I did not learn anything at HAC.  There is a balance.

 

[cast.sheep]

I totally agree with you.  That's where my illustration came in....haha!  Some people are hurt so severely (in their minds) that it erases any of the good. 
I'm not saying it's right...I'm just saying that's how it is. 

I was bitter at my own parents for years because of hurts in my childhood.  After I had my own kids and I matured a lot, I realized that there was a lot of good in my parents that I had never seen before.  I got over it.  But it took years...like....decades.  My hurt was very real to me and I felt very damaged.  Until I worked through it all, I could see little good in them.  Looking at them only reminded me of the hurt I received by them. 

Again, I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying that I understand hurt people and how they deal with things.  It's a personal journey and until they get to that place, the good doesn't exist.  Have compassion on them.  And be thankful that you didn't have to go through it. Truthfully, sites like this are not healthy for the injured people.  Not really.

But, I get what you are saying, Raider.  And you are right.

 

[cast.sheep]

I have teased my husband forever that he came from a "Norman Rockwell" family.  He seriously had the most stable home life.  They weren't Christians, but they lived by Christian values and principles.  Dad was the head of the home and he represented God very well.  Especially seeings he didn't know Him. Mom was truly an accurate portrayal of the Holy Spirit in the home. 

Until my husband met me, he had NO idea how the other half lives.  He has had a real education being married to me! ha!

I often tell him that one of the reasons God brought us together was because if he was going to be in the ministry, he needed to know how the rest of the world lives.  Very few have the home and stability he grew up with. He had no ability to understand or relate to hurt people.  After over 30 years of being married to me and my crazy family, he has had a real eye-opening experience.  And he now has the ability to be much more compassionate.  Although he still doesn't totally "get it".  To him it's all so simple!  "Ok...you were hurt!  Just think of the good things instead of the bad things and everything will be better!"  hahaha!  So simple.  So true.  So hard for people who have emotional wounds.

 

[RAIDER]

I had a close friend that went through a great battle.  He had worked for another friend of mine for about 10 years.  He was not paid well, but he enjoyed the work.  He was a great employee and helped this guy's business tremendously.

Toward the end of the 10 years he did something that hurt his boss badly.  He was in the wrong and he willingly left the job.  He did everything within his power to make things right.  Someone said to the boss, "I know what he did was wrong and I understand you not being friends anymore.  You will have to say that he was a blessing to your business for many years".  The bosses reply was, "The way I view it, what he did disqualified all the good he did".

For some reason this statement cut to my heart and I have never forgotten it.

 

[RAIDER]

Mom was truly an accurate portrayal of the Holy Spirit in the home. 

You mean like "Woman the Completer"? 

 

[cast.sheep]

I had a close friend that went through a great battle.  He had worked for another friend of mine for about 10 years.  He was not paid well, but he enjoyed the work.  He was a great employee and helped this guy's business tremendously.

Toward the end of the 10 years he did something that hurt his boss badly.  He was in the wrong and he willingly left the job.  He did everything within his power to make things right.  Someone said to the boss, "I know what he did was wrong and I understand you not being friends anymore.  You will have to say that he was a blessing to your business for many years".  The bosses reply was, "The way I view it, what he did disqualified all the good he did".

For some reason this statement cut to my heart and I have never forgotten it.

Amazing how our life experiences make us into who we are, huh?  You are so right.  The good should not be disqualified. 

I am thinking that part of the problem, when it comes to FBCH/HAC, is that so many of us felt like it was all a lie.  A sham.  We feel betrayed.  We feel duped.  We feel like we were sold on being a part of a wonderful ministry, but in reality we were just pawns being used for their personal agenda.  That's how I feel.  And, sadly, I am one of those who doesn't remember a whole lot of good.  I have to think really, REALLY hard to come up with stuff.  To my shame.  Just being transparent.

 

[cast.sheep]

I'm gonna open a real can of worms here.....but.....

I know that Dave Hyles is a scoundrel.  I do.  But, he was the reason my husband and I came to Hyles-Anderson College.  In the tangled web of lies, sex, and videotape...haha...God used Dave Hyles to bring my husband and I together and into the will of God for us.  I have no use for Dave Hyles...at all...but I don't have the same hatred for him that others have...because of aformentioned reasons. 

But....I certainly understand the emotions that emerge in some people when his name is mentioned.  They were hurt much more deeply by him than I was. 

This is why we should just be compassionate with one another.  Note to self.  No one really knows what anyone else has been through and why they react the way they do.

 

[cast.sheep]

Now....back to the OP......

 

[RAIDER]

And, sadly, I am one of those who doesn't remember a whole lot of good.  I have to think really, REALLY hard to come up with stuff.  To my shame.  Just being transparent.

You met Teri and Patriotic!  Of course, that would need to be put in the "not a whole lot of good" category. 

 

[qwerty]

Quote from: Tennessean

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

qwerty

would you expound on that a little more. Bob Gray still contends he believed that till he died. Just curious.

If he still believes that, Bob is dumber that I thought.  JH updated that stance in public from the pulpit years before his passing. I honestly do not remember his exact wording, but something like they all have the same rooting, or roots? Hope somebody else could clarify his exact wording.

 

[qwerty]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

And that book is still in print. I believe that alone says a lot. If he changed his position why is it still in print??????

His schedule has been pretty light the past decade or so, maybe he will get around to update it.

 

[Bruh]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

And that book is still in print. I believe that alone says a lot. If he changed his position why is it still in print??????

His schedule has been pretty light the past decade or so, maybe he will get around to update it.

nice try, but when he was alive the book continued to print just the same. And no one would dare put it out of print now.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Norefund]

Just to take this a step further, imagine this. Let's say that you are EL or Duff or whomever you can think of at FBC that would be the 2nd most powerful person. You have heard the cursing, the bizarre sermons, the wasteful spending, the ridiculous theology, and on and on. The Lord lays it heavy on your heart that you should preserve the integry of FBC and use all of your skills to remove Schaap from the pulpit. Could it be done? If so, how?

I didn't use anyone 2nd in command during the Hyles years in that last paragraph because, come on, it could never have been achieved. Wasn't possible. But was it possible with Schaap?

 

[Bruh]

Just to take this a step further, imagine this. Let's say that you are EL or Duff or whomever you can think of at FBC that would be the 2nd most powerful person. You have heard the cursing, the bizarre sermons, the wasteful spending, the ridiculous theology, and on and on. The Lord lays it heavy on your heart that you should preserve the integry of FBC and use all of your skills to remove Schaap from the pulpit. Could it be done? If so, how?

I didn't use anyone 2nd in command during the Hyles years in that last paragraph because, come on, it could never have been achieved. Wasn't possible. But was it possible with Schaap?

Nope!

 

[prophet]

Mom was truly an accurate portrayal of the Holy Spirit in the home. 

You mean like "Woman the Completer"? 

Complete blasphemy.