What could have been done?

[cast.sheep]

I remember when hubby was asked to be on staff.  Oh, what a privilege that was back in the day!  As the years went by and he climbed the ladder, one thing was for certain: declaring blind loyalty and handing your life over was the only way to the "top".  I am thankful hubby never went that far.  But there were plenty that did and plenty more that would.  Yes, in the eyes of the IFB, we were at the top.  What a privilege it was.  Etc.  And we were told that if we left, we would have far less opportunity to influence people than we would by staying there.  Bro. Hyles told that to my hubby.

I honestly think I could write a book.  Ha!  But, I won't.  Would rather leave it all behind....except on here....ha!  And soon enough I'll do that too. 

 

[RAIDER]

You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it! 

I don't "come down" on people for the fact that they are bitter.  I come down on people for not also giving credit for any good that they received.  I have an issue with someone who says they attended HAC for 4 years and received nothing good whatsoever.  People read far more into it then I am saying.

During my Christian life I have left 2 churches because of pastoral issues.  I was at both churches for several years.  I was involved in several ministries at both churches.  I could easily be bitter.  I can tell you many problems with the pastors.  While I am glad I made the move to leave both churches, I must admit that I also learned many positive things and both places.

Why is it that bitter people want no one else saying anything good about an institution?

 

[RAIDER]

I remember when hubby was asked to be on staff.  Oh, what a privilege that was back in the day!  As the years went by and he climbed the ladder, one thing was for certain: declaring blind loyalty and handing your life over was the only way to the "top".  I am thankful hubby never went that far.  But there were plenty that did and plenty more that would.  Yes, in the eyes of the IFB, we were at the top.  What a privilege it was.  Etc.  And we were told that if we left, we would have far less opportunity to influence people than we would by staying there.  Bro. Hyles told that to my hubby.

I honestly think I could write a book.  Ha!  But, I won't.  Would rather leave it all behind....except on here....ha!  And soon enough I'll do that too.

You are spot on!!  I also remember when your husband became a staff member.  I remember thinking that it was great to have one of the "good guys" on staff. 

I still remember being at a high school basketball tournament at HAC.  I hadn't seen your husband for 20 years.  I was in the stands and I saw him walk into the gym during a game.  I let out a loud call of his name like we use to do from the balcony in the college chapel.  He looked up with a huge grin and headed for the stands.

He always got nervous when I would call him a stinkin' Hacker.  He had to keep his image. 

 

[kaba]

I don't know why either.  But, perhaps it may have had something to do with the fact that once you got to "inner-inner circle" status, you were taken care of well.  And, the thing most everyone craved there was "status" and they had that.  Why didn't Scott Gray leave sooner?  I guess only he knows, but maybe it had to do with the fact that he had status.  He was in the "in-crowd" of staff members.  He was in the K Schaap, S Mason, C Tefft, S Gray "group" and they were inseparable.  Oh, and that crowd was close to JS and EL too.

Let's face it, if you were an IFB working for HAC or FBCH you were at the top of the ladder in the eyes of the IFB world.  Perhaps that is why some chose top turn a blind eye.  Maybe they were hoping it would go away.

I somewhat disagree... I think HAC/FBCH are only big in their own eyes. They do not "own" the IFB world. You can go to many IFB churches and they have never heard of some of these "BIG" names. HJAC/FBCH are really not that important in the normal IFB World.

We have had "preachers" from Crown come and try to drop names but it goes nowhere. Or we have had Toby Weaver try and drop names, just makes him look silly. We have a no-name "pastor" from TN that comes to visit our church that likes to drop names and act like he is our Pastors best friend----big deal!

Always makes me laugh when HAC tries to say the book Hyles wrote are "classics" - down right laughable!

 

[RAIDER]

I somewhat disagree... I think HAC/FBCH are only big in their own eyes. They do not "own" the IFB world. You can go to many IFB churches and they have never heard of some of these "BIG" names. HJAC/FBCH are really not that important in the normal IFB World.

We have had "preachers" from Crown come and try to drop names but it goes nowhere. Or we have had Toby Weaver try and drop names, just makes him look silly. We have a no-name "pastor" from TN that comes to visit our church that likes to drop names and act like he is our Pastors best friend----big deal!

Always makes me laugh when HAC tries to say the book Hyles wrote are "classics" - down right laughable!

I somewhat disagree with you somewhat disagreeing.    FBCH/HAC were at the top of the mountain in the eyes of IFB churches OF LIKE BELIEF throughout America.  Yes, I'm sure there were IFB churches of a "different stripe" that had not heard of Jack Hyles and FBCH.  I do not believe this was the norm.

In my hometown there were three Baptist churches that would even be considered close to IFB.  One church was a GARBC.  It was a church pastored by a BJU grad.  The pastor had Dr. Hyles Church Manual in his library.  He attended a couple of Pastor's Schools.  The second church classified itself at IFB but was nowhere near the same stripe at FBCH.  The pastor attended some Pastor's schools.  The third church was also classified as an IFB church.  The pastor was anti-Hyles because Hyles was not strong on repentance.  He preached against Hyles' "ways".  Funny, this preacher's son attended HAC, graduated, and is pastoring today.

IFB churches OF THE FBCH STRIPE throughout the nation had heard about Jack Hyles and FBCH.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Why is it that bitter people want no one else saying anything good about an institution?

Some people are not naturally-born optimists and others...not so much.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Always makes me laugh when HAC tries to say the book Hyles wrote are "classics" - down right laughable!

My daughter was watching TV yesterday when my wife and I happened to be walking in the room. A commercial for some kind of women's makeup was on and all my wife and I heard was "strength and beauty". Be both looked at each other and just cracked up and my daughter looked at us as if we were nuts!

 

[Bruh]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

 

[RAIDER]

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

While I didn't agree with JH on this one I don't consider it "bizarre".  It is definitely out there.

"Bizarre" to me was Schaap's actions in the "Polished Shaft" sermon.  Schaap's teaching on the Lord's Supper.  His constant references to sexual things.  That's the bizarre of which I am speaking.

 

[qwerty]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

 

[Tennessean]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

qwerty

would you expound on that a little more. Bob Gray still contends he believed that till he died. Just curious.

 

[cast.sheep]

You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it! 

I don't "come down" on people for the fact that they are bitter.  I come down on people for not also giving credit for any good that they received.  I have an issue with someone who says they attended HAC for 4 years and received nothing good whatsoever.  People read far more into it then I am saying.

During my Christian life I have left 2 churches because of pastoral issues.  I was at both churches for several years.  I was involved in several ministries at both churches.  I could easily be bitter.  I can tell you many problems with the pastors.  While I am glad I made the move to leave both churches, I must admit that I also learned many positive things and both places.

Why is it that bitter people want no one else saying anything good about an institution?

Some people have deep wounds that supersedes any good that was there.  Think of it like this:

A man has an affair.  He's not a bad man....he just gets in a situation and it ends up there.  The woman he has the affair with isn't a horrible woman either.  They are both good people who made a bad mistake.  They get caught and repent.  Both have spouses that want to make it work so they try.

Do you think the man's faithful wife wants to EVER hear anything good about the woman that was sleeping with her husband????  All she can see is the nearly unbearable hurt caused by the situation.  Any good the "other" woman may have done is lost forever in the eyes of the faithful wife.

I realize these two scenarios are not exactly the same.  I'm just trying to point out that hurt people react in ways that people who have never been there can never understand.  The hurt/bitter person needs time to grieve and get through it.  Some do and some don't.  We all should, of course.  We have the Lord.  But.....the reality is that people react different ways.  If FBCH/HAC/pastors/people/etc. never seriously wounded you....yay!  You have some great memories that you will take with you on your journey.  Other people...not so much.

By the way....my good hubby has never had an ounce of bitterness over his wounds.  And, yes, he has them.  He's the greatest!  He inspires me daily.

 

[Bruh]

I somewhat disagree... I think HAC/FBCH are only big in their own eyes. They do not "own" the IFB world. You can go to many IFB churches and they have never heard of some of these "BIG" names. HJAC/FBCH are really not that important in the normal IFB World.

We have had "preachers" from Crown come and try to drop names but it goes nowhere. Or we have had Toby Weaver try and drop names, just makes him look silly. We have a no-name "pastor" from TN that comes to visit our church that likes to drop names and act like he is our Pastors best friend----big deal!

Always makes me laugh when HAC tries to say the book Hyles wrote are "classics" - down right laughable!

I somewhat disagree with you somewhat disagreeing.    FBCH/HAC were at the top of the mountain in the eyes of IFB churches OF LIKE BELIEF throughout America.  Yes, I'm sure there were IFB churches of a "different stripe" that had not heard of Jack Hyles and FBCH.  I do not believe this was the norm.

In my hometown there were three Baptist churches that would even be considered close to IFB.  One church was a GARBC.  It was a church pastored by a BJU grad.  The pastor had Dr. Hyles Church Manual in his library.  He attended a couple of Pastor's Schools.  The second church classified itself at IFB but was nowhere near the same stripe at FBCH.  The pastor attended some Pastor's schools.  The third church was also classified as an IFB church.  The pastor was anti-Hyles because Hyles was not strong on repentance.  He preached against Hyles' "ways".  Funny, this preacher's son attended HAC, graduated, and is pastoring today.

IFB churches OF THE FBCH STRIPE throughout the nation had heard about Jack Hyles and FBCH.

Well of course if they are of the FBCH stripe they know of them. The point is that there are many many IFB churches even in the 80's that didn't know of FBCH/HAC.

 

[cast.sheep]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

qwerty

would you expound on that a little more. Bob Gray still contends he believed that till he died. Just curious.

Bob Gray thought he knew everything there was to know about Jack Schaap.  He didn't.  Oops...I'm not qwerty.

 

[cast.sheep]

I remember when hubby was asked to be on staff.  Oh, what a privilege that was back in the day!  As the years went by and he climbed the ladder, one thing was for certain: declaring blind loyalty and handing your life over was the only way to the "top".  I am thankful hubby never went that far.  But there were plenty that did and plenty more that would.  Yes, in the eyes of the IFB, we were at the top.  What a privilege it was.  Etc.  And we were told that if we left, we would have far less opportunity to influence people than we would by staying there.  Bro. Hyles told that to my hubby.

I honestly think I could write a book.  Ha!  But, I won't.  Would rather leave it all behind....except on here....ha!  And soon enough I'll do that too.

You are spot on!!  I also remember when your husband became a staff member.  I remember thinking that it was great to have one of the "good guys" on staff. 

I still remember being at a high school basketball tournament at HAC.  I hadn't seen your husband for 20 years.  I was in the stands and I saw him walk into the gym during a game.  I let out a loud call of his name like we use to do from the balcony in the college chapel.  He looked up with a huge grin and headed for the stands.

He always got nervous when I would call him a stinkin' Hacker.  He had to keep his image. 

Thank you for saying that, Raider.  He truly was. 

 

[Bruh]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

And that book is still in print. I believe that alone says a lot. If he changed his position why is it still in print??????

 

[Bruh]

I know that the majority of us are making "long distance" suggestions.  We were not physically there during Schaap's time as pastor.  I know it sometimes makes a difference.

On the other hand, we read the heresy in Schaap's books.  We heard sermons where obvious stupidity was being preached.  We saw him go to bizarre places in his thought pattern.  We heard the stories of his temper tantrums and foul language.  We all watched as things became stranger and stranger.

We kept wondering, "How can the staff and deacons allow this to continue?"  "Why is there not a great exodus of staff members and deacons?"  To this day I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

Would you agree that they were taught by JH not to question the pastor? And this is the reason they did nothing?

I would agree with you to a point.  When Schaap reached the "bizarre" level I would think that another level of common sense would have kicked in.  When the foul language started you would think the questioning would have started.

To a point? Bizarre? What about when JH, said a person can only be saved with a KJV bible?  Is that not bizarre? Unless you believe this as well?

No one (as far as I know) challenged him on this. Why? Bc you don't question the pastor, right?

FWIW, he did change his stance on that opinion. I even asked him about it since I used a Catholic Bible once.

qwerty

would you expound on that a little more. Bob Gray still contends he believed that till he died. Just curious.

If he changed what he believed why did/is it still in print??????

 

[RAIDER]

You come down on people who are bitter, but you don't get it! 

I don't "come down" on people for the fact that they are bitter.  I come down on people for not also giving credit for any good that they received.  I have an issue with someone who says they attended HAC for 4 years and received nothing good whatsoever.  People read far more into it then I am saying.

During my Christian life I have left 2 churches because of pastoral issues.  I was at both churches for several years.  I was involved in several ministries at both churches.  I could easily be bitter.  I can tell you many problems with the pastors.  While I am glad I made the move to leave both churches, I must admit that I also learned many positive things and both places.

Why is it that bitter people want no one else saying anything good about an institution?

Some people have deep wounds that supersedes any good that was there.  Think of it like this:

A man has an affair.  He's not a bad man....he just gets in a situation and it ends up there.  The woman he has the affair with isn't a horrible woman either.  They are both good people who made a bad mistake.  They get caught and repent.  Both have spouses that want to make it work so they try.

Do you think the man's faithful wife wants to EVER hear anything good about the woman that was sleeping with her husband????  All she can see is the nearly unbearable hurt caused by the situation.  Any good the "other" woman may have done is lost forever in the eyes of the faithful wife.

I realize these two scenarios are not exactly the same.  I'm just trying to point out that hurt people react in ways that people who have never been there can never understand.  The hurt/bitter person needs time to grieve and get through it.  Some do and some don't.  We all should, of course.  We have the Lord.  But.....the reality is that people react different ways.  If FBCH/HAC/pastors/people/etc. never seriously wounded you....yay!  You have some great memories that you will take with you on your journey.  Other people...not so much.

By the way....my good hubby has never had an ounce of bitterness over his wounds.  And, yes, he has them.  He's the greatest!  He inspires me daily.

I appreciate the illustration, but I agree that it is not exactly the same.  Let me come from another angle.  I'll take a chance on this one.  Your husband has obviously been hurt by HAC/FBCH.  If I know him like I think I do, he would tell you the negative, but he would also tell you the good he learned.

BTW, I do have some bad HAC memories.  In my case they do not erase all of the good.

 

[RAIDER]

Well of course if they are of the FBCH stripe they know of them. The point is that there are many many IFB churches even in the 80's that didn't know of FBCH/HAC.

Who said anything different than this?

 

[kaba]

I somewhat disagree... I think HAC/FBCH are only big in their own eyes. They do not "own" the IFB world. You can go to many IFB churches and they have never heard of some of these "BIG" names. HJAC/FBCH are really not that important in the normal IFB World.

We have had "preachers" from Crown come and try to drop names but it goes nowhere. Or we have had Toby Weaver try and drop names, just makes him look silly. We have a no-name "pastor" from TN that comes to visit our church that likes to drop names and act like he is our Pastors best friend----big deal!

Always makes me laugh when HAC tries to say the book Hyles wrote are "classics" - down right laughable!

I somewhat disagree with you somewhat disagreeing.    FBCH/HAC were at the top of the mountain in the eyes of IFB churches OF LIKE BELIEF throughout America.  Yes, I'm sure there were IFB churches of a "different stripe" that had not heard of Jack Hyles and FBCH.  I do not believe this was the norm.

In my hometown there were three Baptist churches that would even be considered close to IFB.  One church was a GARBC.  It was a church pastored by a BJU grad.  The pastor had Dr. Hyles Church Manual in his library.  He attended a couple of Pastor's Schools.  The second church classified itself at IFB but was nowhere near the same stripe at FBCH.  The pastor attended some Pastor's schools.  The third church was also classified as an IFB church.  The pastor was anti-Hyles because Hyles was not strong on repentance.  He preached against Hyles' "ways".  Funny, this preacher's son attended HAC, graduated, and is pastoring today.

IFB churches OF THE FBCH STRIPE throughout the nation had heard about Jack Hyles and FBCH.

ok ok agruement heard. Maybe dont disagree as much. I also came from a GARB church, started as a German Baptist a looooooooooooong time ago- 1800's