Updates on Scott Gray & his new church.
- Thread starter sword
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This may be hard for a lot of people to believe, but there are a lot of people in different churches in the area who have absolutely no idea who jh was and never heard him preach nor do they know anything about the family except for little tidbits they may pick up here and there.
One of the assistant pastors in the church I now attend was telling his small group about other churches in the area. He mentioned our church which runs around 2500 - 3000. He mentioned Faith church which runs about the same. He mentioned Family Christian Center that runs around 7000-8000. And then he mentioned fbch. He said, "I really don't know what to think. I have heard more different numbers and am more confused about their size than any other church I have come across. The senior pastor said he had never heard of jh until he came to NW Indiana.
One of the assistant pastors in the church I now attend was telling his small group about other churches in the area. He mentioned our church which runs around 2500 - 3000. He mentioned Faith church which runs about the same. He mentioned Family Christian Center that runs around 7000-8000. And then he mentioned fbch. He said, "I really don't know what to think. I have heard more different numbers and am more confused about their size than any other church I have come across. The senior pastor said he had never heard of jh until he came to NW Indiana.
When jh was alive he would quite often tell us that "America has her eyes on this church, The way this church goes is the way America will go, This church is the greatest church since the church at Jerusalem in the book of Acts, The fate of America rests on these two shoulders" etc. I didn't know any better at the time and I believed it. Don't any more though.
Actually, by any account FBCH is still the largest church in Indiana.
Average SS Attendance is probably 11 - 15,000.... but either way, these churches add up all of their services as their weekly attendance.
FBCH even in the Summer easily has 4,000 - 5,000 in the main auditorium on Sun AM.... probably 3,500 Sun PM (in the Summer) and 3,000 Wed PM in the Summer.... this is 11,500 - not counting any SS classes, Spanish Services, Bus Services, etc.
Average SS Attendance is probably 11 - 15,000.... but either way, these churches add up all of their services as their weekly attendance.
FBCH even in the Summer easily has 4,000 - 5,000 in the main auditorium on Sun AM.... probably 3,500 Sun PM (in the Summer) and 3,000 Wed PM in the Summer.... this is 11,500 - not counting any SS classes, Spanish Services, Bus Services, etc.
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WESLEY said:
When people now a days talk about church attendance they are not discussing SS attendance as Bro. Hyles was famous for doing. A new paradigm is in view. Attendance is now calculated on the total number of people in each service on a weekend. Could be Fri night through Sunday or Sat and Sunday or just all services on Sunday. This is how The Outreach Magazine top 100 is calculated.
When Lake Wood Houston is listed as number One with 47,000 in attendance it does not mean they had
47,000 in Sunday School on Sunday morning.
It means they had a total of 47,000 from all their services added together.
They could have had 20,000 twice in their main auditorium (former Compaq Center) and 7,000 in their old smaller auditorium for one service but all on the same weekend.
You say that's dishonest, no it's not. That is the methodology of the Outreach Magazine top 100.
That is how it is done now.
They do not use Bro. Hyles counting methods period.
All the churches participating in this survey use the same methodology.
FBCH lower floor seats about 4,000 in individual seats while the balcony seats about 2,500.
There are a total of 6,200 individual seats in the main room not counting choir or over flows.
Now that's the English church only. There is a Spanish church across the street with seating for about 2,500.
Let's just add some hypothetical numbers and see what we get.
I am under-counting just to make a point.
AM service Engish 3,500
AM service Spanish 1,500
PM service Engish 3,000
PM service Spanish 500
Total weekend 8,500 This is the figure reported to Outreach Mag.
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Here is a more complete explanation of our main auditorium and JH auditorium seating capacity
The old auditorium was seating around 4,500 by actual head count in 2003-2004. We had the ushers do head counts in each of their sections. This was a packed house, seats all the way to the back wall downstairs, mez loaded with seats and all TV only sections loaded. This was done for several Sundays to get what the real attendance was. Most of us knew for many years that the old auditorium could not hold 5,000 adults. Of course we have not had small children in our auditorium for many years during Bro. Hyles time.
5,000 children at 12"to 18" each would have been possible. If we were using the same math Bro. Hyles used the new building could seat 12,000 or more, it is over twice as big as the old one. In fact you could put three of the old buildings in the new one. Old building was aprox 100 x 200 new building is 320 x 220. Take a look for yourself if you like. Use Google Earth.
Here is an explanation of the seating in the new auditorium by the guy that sold us the seating.
By Ron Ogden on March 27, 2011 9:26 PM
Let me try to clear up the confusion about the seat capacity at First Baptist Hammond, and perhaps a few other projects. I am V.P. of sales for Series Seating and worked closely with Pastor Jack Schaap when we provided the custom pew seating there. Anyone who estimates the capacity at FBC Hammond at a specific number between 6350 and 7400 could "count" themselves correct. I will explain. These pews have 6350 self lifting seats that average about 21" in width. But since these are designed without arm dividers, the occcupants have the potential to sit closer, if they choose, and are able.
Here's how we get to the 7400. Architects are required to estimate seat capacity in continuous pews at 18" per person as a standard for figuring parking lot space reqiremnts. With 133,350 lin. inches of pew length at FBC Hammond,the capacity would translate to 7408 at 18". This semi-legitimate 18" standard is the reason many worhsip facilities assume a capacity much higher than the actual head count woud reveal on a filled-to-capacity Easter Sunday, yet it is a legitimate claim, But lets face it....you have to really like each other to set at 18" spacing. American diets say no way. So technically-7400...realistically- 6350 For what it is worth, this type of pew at Hammond, like theater seats, will achieve a capacity that is 20% higher than conventioal pews.
Ron Ogden
The old auditorium was seating around 4,500 by actual head count in 2003-2004. We had the ushers do head counts in each of their sections. This was a packed house, seats all the way to the back wall downstairs, mez loaded with seats and all TV only sections loaded. This was done for several Sundays to get what the real attendance was. Most of us knew for many years that the old auditorium could not hold 5,000 adults. Of course we have not had small children in our auditorium for many years during Bro. Hyles time.
5,000 children at 12"to 18" each would have been possible. If we were using the same math Bro. Hyles used the new building could seat 12,000 or more, it is over twice as big as the old one. In fact you could put three of the old buildings in the new one. Old building was aprox 100 x 200 new building is 320 x 220. Take a look for yourself if you like. Use Google Earth.
Here is an explanation of the seating in the new auditorium by the guy that sold us the seating.
By Ron Ogden on March 27, 2011 9:26 PM
Let me try to clear up the confusion about the seat capacity at First Baptist Hammond, and perhaps a few other projects. I am V.P. of sales for Series Seating and worked closely with Pastor Jack Schaap when we provided the custom pew seating there. Anyone who estimates the capacity at FBC Hammond at a specific number between 6350 and 7400 could "count" themselves correct. I will explain. These pews have 6350 self lifting seats that average about 21" in width. But since these are designed without arm dividers, the occcupants have the potential to sit closer, if they choose, and are able.
Here's how we get to the 7400. Architects are required to estimate seat capacity in continuous pews at 18" per person as a standard for figuring parking lot space reqiremnts. With 133,350 lin. inches of pew length at FBC Hammond,the capacity would translate to 7408 at 18". This semi-legitimate 18" standard is the reason many worhsip facilities assume a capacity much higher than the actual head count woud reveal on a filled-to-capacity Easter Sunday, yet it is a legitimate claim, But lets face it....you have to really like each other to set at 18" spacing. American diets say no way. So technically-7400...realistically- 6350 For what it is worth, this type of pew at Hammond, like theater seats, will achieve a capacity that is 20% higher than conventioal pews.
Ron Ogden
The proplem with the largest church rankings is it depends on who you count.
In many cases multiple services are counted and in some multiple locations.
I think the numbers should include everyone you have on the property for any given type of service. Everyone on a single property for all Sunday am services for example.
The IFB type of model, with all its kids programs & sunday school ministry is very different from the Mega church model & that makes it difficult to compare. A church like "Lakewood Church" (Joel Osteen) has a very different format than one like FBC Hammond.
Of course I understand its all about the numbers.
In many cases multiple services are counted and in some multiple locations.
I think the numbers should include everyone you have on the property for any given type of service. Everyone on a single property for all Sunday am services for example.
The IFB type of model, with all its kids programs & sunday school ministry is very different from the Mega church model & that makes it difficult to compare. A church like "Lakewood Church" (Joel Osteen) has a very different format than one like FBC Hammond.
Of course I understand its all about the numbers.
WESLEY said:
This is what I was referring to
http://www.95network.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Outreach100-2012.pdf
Timotheus said:
Just an example:
19 15,235 Family Christian Center Munster IN Steve Munsey
According to a recent Times Article, FCC has 5 services and seats 3,000..... I've been there, and doubt that 3,000 capacity is accurate. Anyway, Those 5 Services are throughout the week...
WESLEY said:Timotheus said:
Just an example:
19 15,235 Family Christian Center Munster IN Steve Munsey
According to a recent Times Article, FCC has 5 services and seats 3,000..... I've been there, and doubt that 3,000 capacity is accurate. Anyway, Those 5 Services are throughout the week...
These numbers from Outreach Mag. include off site locations. (Ghana anyone?
) So FCC is probably counting their Chicago location as well.These numbers are from Outreach Magazine
FBC attendance numbers
Year -- Attendance -- Rank
2012 -- 13,426 -- #26
2011 -- 14,776 -- #19
2010 -- 15,465 -- #16
2009 -- 15,059 -- #12
2008 -- 13,678 -- #19
2007 -- 12,000 -- #20
2006 -- 11,300 -- #26
E
Evelyn
Guest
cpizzle said:
Can someone explain to me in the IFB circles of the world why it is so important that one has run a "hot dog stand"? How come they never say, "He's never even run a lawn-mowing service?" Or, "He's never been a plumber?" What's so special about about a hot dog stand? lol
Evelyn said:
Have you ever been to FBC on hot dog Sunday?
You better know what you’re doing or things can spin out of control in a hurry.
The hot dog stand professionals at FBC also manage the box lunches for YC. These people know what they are doing.
They are a critical link in the food supply chain in IFB churches. Never underestimate their importance.
E
Evelyn
Guest
sword said:
Well, if that's the criteria, I think it would be more apt to say, "He's never even herded 147 kids through the zoo!" lol Yep, I was there for 7-ish years of special-promotions Sundays; my husband was a bus captain in Division 8 and a few years later, in Division 11.
T
Terry
Guest
sword said:
Scott Gray is doing great things in Durham NC.
E
Evelyn
Guest
Terry said:
These are psychologically triggering IFB words for me. Did HAC folks make them up all those years ago?