The Longest Thread in the History of the FFF....

Ekklesian said:
You're trying to appeal to natural rights, meaning that all nations have the same (conditional) right, derived from natural law, to exist. And that certainly isn't the argument in the case of Israel.

Their birth certainly wasn't natural, and their covenant with God was unlike His covenant with any other nation, even though He is the nations' God, too (Romans 3:29).

What happens to the rights derived from a covenant that has been fulfilled, and that is no longer in effect?
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You don't understand the bible.
 
Ekklesian said:
Well yes, Paul for one...many times.

What was the condition needed for even one iota to pass from the law?
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I'll just cut to the chase. Jesus said the law and the prophets must be fulfilled, 'all' must be fulfilled. One doesn't have to have the law and the prophets committed to memory to understand what Jesus said on the subject. Instead of bringing one's ignorance and prejudices concerning the prophecies to Christ's words, we should be taking Christ's words to our study of the prophecies.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18​
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During His ministry, we can see Jesus giving these commands:

The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; - Matthew 23:2-3​
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And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them. - Matthew 8:4​
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But now, Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ... But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. - Galatians 3:19, 23-25

There is no more Levitical priesthood, because there is no more law that made them priests. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. - Hebrews 7:12

No one gives the commandments that Jesus gave concerning Moses, because the law is done. It has passed. It is fulfilled. And despite what the unbelievers in Israel are attempting to do, there is no more Temple. There is no more priesthood. There is no more sacrifice. There is nothing to restore, or a land for the unbelievers to return to.
 
AverageJoe said:
Nor am I.
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Are you sure?

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine. ​

 
Ekklesian said:
Are you sure?

Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and of the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine. ​

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Did God say that the land belonged to Jacob/Israel forever or not? He promised it to Abraham... what???? Forever. Jacob is Abraham's descendant, as are the Jewish people. That doesn't make me a Zionist...it makes me one who believes what God promised.
 
AverageJoe said:
Did God say that the land belonged to Jacob/Israel forever or not?
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Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Jewish nation, which happened in AD 70.

So no.

The promises were indefinite, but not permanent, and conditioned upon faithfulness to the covenant. They broke covenant when they rejected their Messiah, and the land was taken away from them. The modern State of Israel is a secular republic, not the restoration of the ancient nation. It lacks, for example, a priesthood and Temple, which were central to the Israelite identity.
 
Ransom said:
Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Jewish nation, which happened in AD 70.

So no.

The promises were indefinite, but not permanent, and conditioned upon faithfulness to the covenant. They broke covenant when they rejected their Messiah, and the land was taken away from them. The modern State of Israel is a secular republic, not the restoration of the ancient nation. It lacks, for example, a priesthood and Temple, which were central to the Israelite identity.
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So forever and everlasting were lies God was telling...I see. 🙄🙄🙄
 
AverageJoe said:
So forever and everlasting were lies God was telling...I see.
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Was God lying when he used the same word with respect to circumcision, which passed away with the coming of the New Covenant (Gal. 5:6)?

Of course not. It's the translation, or at least the interpretation, that's incorrect.

The land promises are "everlasting" (Gen. 48:4) in the same sense as circumcision was "everlasting" (Gen. 17:13).
 
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