The Impeccability of Christ

[Just me]

That is exactly my point.

How so? It wasn't my point.

He could have sinned but chose not to do it.

Christ did not inherit Adam's sinfulness. That's why he didn't sin. It wasn't in his nature.

So was sin in adams nature in the garden before he chose to sin?

 

[Ransom]

Adam's ability to sin is irrelevant. Impeccability is a divine, non-communicable attribute. Jesus had it. Adam didn't.

 

[Just me]

If Jesus did not have the ability to choose to sin then how is he our perfect substitute? If that were the case why would he even need to come to earth and live a sinless life?  If that is the case then it is no big deal that he did not sin while on earth because "he could not". 

No I think he chose not to sin or to yeild to temptation.  That makes him a more perfect substitute.

No offense, but there is absolutely nothing logical about your argument. Jesus didn't come to prove he was stronger willed than us --  a sort of super human or moral giant; he came to show us that he was holy God in the flesh. The fact that he did not sin only verifies his own claims about himself.

No offense taken.  This is why we have these discussions.  I agree that Christ did not come to prove to us he was stronger willed or a super moral giant.  He came to be the perfect sinless sacrifice for our sins.  I get and understand that. 

But I still ask could he have chosen to sin?  I think he could have but of course chose not to thus making him that perfect sacrifice.

 

[Just me]

Adam's ability to sin is irrelevant. Impeccability is a divine, non-communicable attribute. Jesus had it. Adam didn't.

Hmmm.  Ok food for thought. 

Thanks for the discussion

 

[rsc2a]

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Not so. Sin is damaged human nature.

Sin is offense against God. The humanity (or lack thereof) of the one committing the offense is irrelevant. The only thing necessary is that one is a moral agent. (i.e. No animals.)

 

[freelance_christian]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

 

[freelance_christian]

If Jesus did not have the ability to choose to sin then how is he our perfect substitute? If that were the case why would he even need to come to earth and live a sinless life?  If that is the case then it is no big deal that he did not sin while on earth because "he could not". 

No I think he chose not to sin or to yeild to temptation.  That makes him a more perfect substitute.

No offense, but there is absolutely nothing logical about your argument. Jesus didn't come to prove he was stronger willed than us --  a sort of super human or moral giant; he came to show us that he was holy God in the flesh. The fact that he did not sin only verifies his own claims about himself.

No offense taken.  This is why we have these discussions.  I agree that Christ did not come to prove to us he was stronger willed or a super moral giant.  He came to be the perfect sinless sacrifice for our sins.  I get and understand that. 

But I still ask could he have chosen to sin?  I think he could have but of course chose not to thus making him that perfect sacrifice.

That's the problem though. You are arguing from what you THINK rather than what we KNOW about God's nature from the Scriptures. Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

 

[christundivided]

If Jesus did not have the ability to choose to sin then how is he our perfect substitute?

Because a sacrificial animal had to be flawless.  If Jesus had inherited Adam's guilt, then he would not have been an acceptable sacrifice.

As Recovering IFB pointed out, the Scripture says Jesus "knew no sin." Certainly he knew what sin was, and he had the equipment to commit it. But he had no experiential, personal knowledge of sin, unlike the remainder of the human race, who is on intimate terms with it.

What does "faithful high priest" mean to you?

While Christ did not personally commit sin... He did take upon Himself the entirety of our Sin. He bore it in "His own Body". In this, He more than is just "aware of sin". You can call this "intimately knowing sin".

 

[christundivided]

If Jesus did not have the ability to choose to sin then how is he our perfect substitute? If that were the case why would he even need to come to earth and live a sinless life?  If that is the case then it is no big deal that he did not sin while on earth because "he could not". 

No I think he chose not to sin or to yeild to temptation.  That makes him a more perfect substitute.

No offense, but there is absolutely nothing logical about your argument. Jesus didn't come to prove he was stronger willed than us --  a sort of super human or moral giant; he came to show us that he was holy God in the flesh. The fact that he did not sin only verifies his own claims about himself.

No offense taken.  This is why we have these discussions.  I agree that Christ did not come to prove to us he was stronger willed or a super moral giant.  He came to be the perfect sinless sacrifice for our sins.  I get and understand that. 

But I still ask could he have chosen to sin?  I think he could have but of course chose not to thus making him that perfect sacrifice.

That's the problem though. You are arguing from what you THINK rather than what we KNOW about God's nature from the Scriptures. Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

In the grand schema of things... an ALL POWERFUL God.... sets the rules and doesn't Himself... have to abide by them. This is exactly what Christ was teaching in...

Luk 6:1  And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2  And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
Luk 6:3  And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
Luk 6:4  How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?
Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I am not saying that Christ broke the law.That is another discussion. I will say the disciples broke the letter of the sabbath law. Christ responded as such. He did not contend that they hadn't broke the law. They had. Yet, the Lord of the sabbath is the Judge. An all powerful, all self satisfying God... makes all the calls.

 

[christundivided]

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Not so. Sin is damaged human nature.

I've heard this argument for years from fundamentalists. They argue that Christ somehow was shield from the some of the weakness of humanity because He did not carry the direct "bloodline/seed" of Adam..... because He was the child of the Holy Spirit. Regardless of what anyone thinks, Christ was of the seed of Mary even though she had never known a man. A woman supplied her "seed". It takes two. It doesn't just take one. In this, Christ is/was one hundred percent human and one hundred percent God. Explain it all... I can't. Yet, we can not ignore the "seed of the woman".

Gen_3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

Christ suffered weakness. Christ suffered pain. Christ SUFFERED before He ever set one foot on Calvary's hill. Its was this combined nature that formed the perfect sacrifice. Its is no "one without the other".

 

[rsc2a]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

I would say no.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Thank you all for the very enlightening thoughts. I know that we'll not all agree on this issue, but it certainly appears that all agree on the fact that Christ was, in fact, sinless. Whether He could have or could not have sinned may remain a mystery until we get to heaven, but praise the Lord we know that He did not sin.

Philippians 2:7 But [Jesus] made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

One of our Brothers earlier made reference to Jesus' kenosis. I found a great statement relative to this:

“Kenosis is the Greek word which Paul used in describing the act of Christ in emptying himself of His infinite powers and heavenly glory out of place or too great to be used in the finite limitations and local form of the human life into which He came. In his kenosis, the Eternal Son dropped for the time being THE EXERCISE OF certain powers and attributes, but He remained Himself. He who lays these aside, is not Himself laid aside. He was still God the Son in holy will, divine desire, righteous purpose, and immaculate love. The infinity of powers not needed or suited within the narrow scope of a human life, He laid aside." (John Champion, The Virgin’s Son, 1924).

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Well then I guess the temptation in the widerness was useless.  He could not have sinned or even thought about it.  I wonder if he even knew what the devil was trying to do.

My opinion is that the Christ's temptation is far from useless. Jesus didn't yield to temptation to prove that He was sinless; Jesus went through the temptation in order to demonstrate to us that we, too, can resist temptation. He did it to be an example for you and me. 

And how does that help me to overcome temptation?

Jesus showed us the only way to successfully resist and defeat temptation - through the power of the Word of God.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I don't claim to understand all that this means, but I do know that Jesus faced temptations in the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life; and, He successfully resisted these temptations. You and I will not face a temptation that does not fall under one of these three categories. Although He could not have sinned, the very fact that He endured these temptations shows me that I can have victory in my life as well.

 

[freelance_christian]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

I would say no.

If you believe that the Father cannot sin, then you must also believe the same is true for the Son. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30).

 

[christundivided]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

I would say no.

If you believe that the Father cannot sin, then you must also believe the same is true for the Son. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30).

If you believe the Son could die on the cross, then you must also believe the same is true for the Father. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30)

 

[Ransom]

If you believe the Son could die on the cross, then you must also believe the same is true for the Father. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30)

Don't confuse your categories. Jesus' mortality was an attribute of his humanity, which the Father and the Holy Spirit do not share.  Impeccability is an attribute of divinity.

 

[rsc2a]

If you believe the Son could die on the cross, then you must also believe the same is true for the Father. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30)

Don't confuse your categories. Jesus' mortality was an attribute of his humanity, which the Father and the Holy Spirit do not share.  Impeccability is an attribute of divinity.

I would agree with this. I would also say that the ability to sin is an attribute of humanity.

I don't pretend to understand how someone can be both fully human and fully God.

 

[Ransom]

I would also say that the ability to sin is an attribute of humanity.

The "ability to sin" is not an attribute, it's the privation of an attribute, namely impeccability.

If Jesus cannot sin, then it is incorrect to claim he lacks something we have. It's the opposite: he has something we don't. He is more perfectly human, not less.

 

[freelance_christian]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

I would say no.

If you believe that the Father cannot sin, then you must also believe the same is true for the Son. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30).

If you believe the Son could die on the cross, then you must also believe the same is true for the Father. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30)

I was unaware that the Father ever became a man.

 

[christundivided]

I voted other.

Jesus is fully human. He could sin as much as Adam could sin.
Jesus is fully God. It is impossible for God to sin.

Until I can wrap my head around how one can be both fully man and fully God, I'll just have to acknowledge that this truth is still a mystery to us.

The ability to sin is not an exclusively human trait, e.g. the Satan. Adam was a man who did not have intrinsic holiness. Jesus was a man with intrinsic holiness because he was also God. Because of this difference, the man Adam had the ability to sin, and the man Jesus did not. There is absolutely no contradiction in Christ's perfect holiness and his humanity.

If the man Jesus didn't have the ability to sin, then the man Jesus wasn't fully human.

Can God the Father or the Holy Spirit sin?

I would say no.

If you believe that the Father cannot sin, then you must also believe the same is true for the Son. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30).

If you believe the Son could die on the cross, then you must also believe the same is true for the Father. Jesus himself declared that he was one with the Father (John 10:30)

I was unaware that the Father ever became a man.

I was unaware that the Son became the Father.

I said what I said to make you think about your argument. One liners don't always tell the entire story.