Surely Schaap Is Wrong, but Riplinger Is A Nut!

[Tarheel Baptist]

Yup...she teached Jesus suffered and died in hell and was born again on jell

Sources please?

You don't care about sources. Anyone that has followed the women to any degree knows she believe Christ suffered in hell for every person. Maybe you should pay attention to her booklet

"The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make".

Actually I do care about sources because I'm not going to blindly believe someone teaches heresy based on what someone else said on the internet. I've also stated that I know very little about her.

As far as your complaint, depending on exactly how she said it (nuance/context/etc), she might very well be right or she might be completely wrong. Thus the request for sources. (See how this works?)

I gave you a source. Now read it for yourself.

Christ did not suffer in hell. His death paid for our sin. All the ignorance traced to such a teaching can be tracked back to a stupid translation in the KJV.

Do you believe Christ our Lord suffered torment in the fires of hell?

He needs a source with lots of pictures and not so many big words.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Christ did not suffer in hell. His death paid for our sin. All the ignorance traced to such a teaching can be tracked back to a stupid translation in the KJV.

Do you believe Christ our Lord suffered torment in the fires of hell?[/quote]

I believe you have too narrow a view of Hell.

Did Christ suffer the torment of Hell? Absolutely. It was the cross and everything that it represents.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]He needs a source with lots of pictures and not so many big words.....[/quote]

If you're going to be a donkey, don't involve me in it.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]Christ did not suffer in hell. His death paid for our sin. All the ignorance traced to such a teaching can be tracked back to a stupid translation in the KJV.

Do you believe Christ our Lord suffered torment in the fires of hell?

I believe you have too narrow a view of Hell.

Did Christ suffer the torment of Hell? Absolutely. It was the cross and everything that it represents.
[/quote]

I asked about the "flames" of hell. Do you believe Christ experienced the physical torment of being "burned" in hell?

I have a biblical view of hell.  "Hell" is more than "suffering separation" from the Father on the cross.

People like you always want to blur the lines with broad definitions. Why don't you start your own dictionary of biblical terms and demand everyone follow you?

The bet the next thing you're going to say is "heaven" in on earth because we experience a little joy from time to time in our lives....

 

[T-Bone]

Well I went to bed last night and it seems others have carried on the conversation...here is your source...

Joyce Meyer, like Kenneth Copeland and other Word Faith teachers, says that Jesus Christ went to hell.

"Whatever it took to get God's people back, free again, is what they would do. Jesus paid for our sins on the cross and went to hell in our place." (Whatever it took means that Jesus had to go to hell, suffer and be tormented by demons in our place.) Quote source: (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make Page 41, 1996-Edition) 

Let Us Reason Ministries quotes from the 1991 edition of Joyce Meyer's booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make:

 

[T-Bone]

and...

During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin

 

[rsc2a]

    I believe in God the Father Almighty,
    Maker of heaven and earth:

    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
    Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    Born of the Virgin Mary,
    Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    Was crucified, dead, and buried:
    He descended into hell;
    The third day he rose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven,
    And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    The holy Catholick Church;
    The Communion of Saints;
    The Forgiveness of sins;
    The Resurrection of the body,
    And the Life everlasting.
    Amen.

 

[T-Bone]

Apostle's creed again an unfortunate source of complete truth...I have given you sources and direct quotes of her heresy.  The Bible doesn't not teach Jesus went to hell and suffered and was born again in hell...that is heresy.  The Bible teaches that he descended into the place of the dead and set the captives free...who are these captives?  Those in paradise who were awaiting the atonement which Jesus said was paid on the cross..."It is finished"...any interpretation that teaches Jesus suffered in hell and was born again at all is heresy and needs to be declared as so!

 

[christundivided]

    I believe in God the Father Almighty,
    Maker of heaven and earth:

    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
    Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
    Born of the Virgin Mary,
    Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    Was crucified, dead, and buried:
    He descended into hell;
    The third day he rose again from the dead;
    He ascended into heaven,
    And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost;
    The holy Catholick Church;
    The Communion of Saints;
    The Forgiveness of sins;
    The Resurrection of the body,
    And the Life everlasting.
    Amen.

You don't even know how to follow you're own Catechism and you know very little about the evolution of the Creed. Here is the a proper translation of the various Latin creeds that came to be known as the "Apostle's Creed".

    1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
    3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
    4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
    5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
    6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
    10. the forgiveness of sins,
    11. the resurrection of the body,
    12. and life everlasting.


If you're going to just "wing" it when dealing with the doctrine... You really should do a little more research before you assume something.

 

[rsc2a]

Apostle's creed again an unfortunate source of complete truth...

What does this mean?

[quote author=T-Bone]I have given you sources and direct quotes of her heresy.  The Bible doesn't not teach Jesus went to hell and suffered and was born again in hell...that is heresy.[/quote]

Depending on what she means by "born again", quite possibly (and I would tend to lean that way personally). It could also be the result of a very poor choice of words on her part. (This is at attempt to be gracious.) It wouldn't be the first really stupid thing that someone said where it was only stupid because of how they phrased it.

I'm not saying she's not a bad teacher. Just the stuff about being "tormented by demons [in Hell]" shows how screwed up some of her views are. And (I looked over her FAQ), if she's not WoF / prosperity gospel, she's skating close enough to make me uncomfortable with her teaching. (Because I'm a prosperity gospel guy, but not in any type of "prosperity" way that many of those guys would agree with. Phillipians 4:11-13)

[quote author=T-Bone]The Bible teaches that he descended into the place of the dead and set the captives free...who are these captives?  Those in paradise who were awaiting the atonement which Jesus said was paid on the cross..."It is finished"...[/quote]

Actually what exactly the relevant passages (e.g. 1 Peter 3:18-20) are speaking of is debated.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]If you're going to just "wing" it when dealing with the doctrine... You really should do a little more research before you assume something.[/quote]

I guess the Anglicans (and Episcopalians), Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans.... all got it wrong.  :

 

[T-Bone]

Apostle's creed again an unfortunate source of complete truth...

What does this mean? It means that the language is unfortunate in the use of the word "hell"..it leads the ignorant to make heretical statements from a document that is not from the Bible, but from a counsel.  The statement is incomplete as is says nothing about essentials for salvation.  While I don't have a problem with all that it says, I am not creedal and would rather look at the whole of the Scripture that a limited "readers digest" explaination.

[quote author=T-Bone]I have given you sources and direct quotes of her heresy.  The Bible doesn't not teach Jesus went to hell and suffered and was born again in hell...that is heresy.

Depending on what she means by "born again", quite possibly (and I would tend to lean that way personally). It could also be the result of a very poor choice of words on her part. (This is at attempt to be gracious.) It wouldn't be the first really stupid thing that someone said where it was only stupid because of how they phrased it.She has been asked to change this teaching and has not.  She believes Jesus was born again in hell....she agrees with Copeland who said "Jesus is the first born again man." To which he continues a supposed conversation with God where Copeland says, "you don't mean, you cannot mean that a born again man became a redeemer and that I could have done the same thing"  To which God supposedly replied..."You could have if you had enough faith".  Clear heresy.

I'm not saying she's not a bad teacher. Just the stuff about being "tormented by demons [in Hell]" shows how screwed up some of her views are. And (I looked over her FAQ), if she's not WoF / prosperity gospel, she's skating close enough to make me uncomfortable with her teaching. (Because I'm a prosperity gospel guy, but not in any type of "prosperity" way that many of those guys would agree with. Phillipians 4:11-13)She is more than a bad teacher...she is a heretic.  She denies even what Jesus said, "it is finished".  She places Jesus in hell to be tormented, to die there, and to be born again there.  She is a dangerous false teacher and should be exposed as such.

[quote author=T-Bone]The Bible teaches that he descended into the place of the dead and set the captives free...who are these captives?  Those in paradise who were awaiting the atonement which Jesus said was paid on the cross..."It is finished"...[/quote]

Actually what exactly the relevant passages (e.g. 1 Peter 3:18-20) are speaking of is debated.There is no debate in orthodox christianity as to whether Jesus suffered in hell, died there, and was born again there.  The debate is only in the mind of the heretic
[/quote]

See answers in green above.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]If you're going to just "wing" it when dealing with the doctrine... You really should do a little more research before you assume something.

I guess the Anglicans (and Episcopalians), Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans.... all got it wrong.  :
[/quote]

Some do and some don't. I depends on how its translated. Get it? It wasn't written in English and its been lengthened over time.

Get it? I know you know very little about such things but seriously.... you shouldn't participate in grown up conversations.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=T-Bone]What does this mean? It means that the language is unfortunate in the use of the word "hell"..it leads the ignorant to make heretical statements from a document that is not from the Bible, but from a counsel.  The statement is incomplete as is says nothing about essentials for salvation.  While I don't have a problem with all that it says, I am not creedal and would rather look at the whole of the Scripture that a limited "readers digest" explaination.[/quote]

Paul himself offered a "readers digest" version. As to the essentials for salvation, my guess is we probably don't even define those the same way.

[quote author=T-Bone]Depending on what she means by "born again", quite possibly (and I would tend to lean that way personally). It could also be the result of a very poor choice of words on her part. (This is at attempt to be gracious.) It wouldn't be the first really stupid thing that someone said where it was only stupid because of how they phrased it.She has been asked to change this teaching and has not.  She believes Jesus was born again in hell....she agrees with Copeland who said "Jesus is the first born again man." To which he continues a supposed conversation with God where Copeland says, "you don't mean, you cannot mean that a born again man became a redeemer and that I could have done the same thing"  To which God supposedly replied..."You could have if you had enough faith".  Clear heresy.[/quote]

Fair enough regarding Copeland (if you can give me a source). If she's been asked to clarify and refuses, that also is troubling. I don't think like guilt by association unless the associate says, "I concur."

[quote author=T-Bone]I'm not saying she's not a bad teacher. Just the stuff about being "tormented by demons [in Hell]" shows how screwed up some of her views are. And (I looked over her FAQ), if she's not WoF / prosperity gospel, she's skating close enough to make me uncomfortable with her teaching. (Because I'm a prosperity gospel guy, but not in any type of "prosperity" way that many of those guys would agree with. Phillipians 4:11-13)She is more than a bad teacher...she is a heretic.  She denies even what Jesus said, "it is finished".  She places Jesus in hell to be tormented, to die there, and to be born again there.  She is a dangerous false teacher and should be exposed as such.[/quote]

I think "it is finished" means a lot more than that.

[quote author=T-Bone]Actually what exactly the relevant passages (e.g. 1 Peter 3:18-20) are speaking of is debated.There is no debate in orthodox christianity as to whether Jesus suffered in hell, died there, and was born again there.  The debate is only in the mind of the heretic[/quote]

I would most likely agree with you on this (depending on how you defined the terms).

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]If you're going to just "wing" it when dealing with the doctrine... You really should do a little more research before you assume something.

I guess the Anglicans (and Episcopalians), Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans.... all got it wrong.  :

Some do and some don't. I depends on how its translated. Get it? It wasn't written in English and its been lengthened over time.

Get it? I know you know very little about such things but seriously.... you shouldn't participate in grown up conversations.
[/quote]

If you'd like, I can pull down their respective official documents and show where they all use the same formula.

 

[christundivided]

Go ahead. You can't. Some use the word "hell". Others use the word "hades". Regardless, none of the one's mentioned believe that Christ suffered in a burning hell. They clearly believe that "hell" is a reference to "sheol".

A correct translation of the Apostle's creed would use "hades". I have nothing against the Catholic declaration of the Apostle's Creed in descending to the "dead".

Obviously you're in over your head.

 

[T-Bone]

Source for Copeland---  The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him." He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." 5

Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification" (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #00-0202, side 2.

 

[rsc2a]

Go ahead. You can't. Some use the word "hell". Others use the word "hades". Regardless, none of the one's mentioned believe that Christ suffered in a burning hell. They clearly believe that "hell" is a reference to "sheol".

A correct translation of the Apostle's creed would use "hades". I have nothing against the Catholic declaration of the Apostle's Creed in descending to the "dead".

Obviously you're in over your head.

United Methodist

...he descended to the dead.*...

*or "He descended to hell."

Anglican Book of Common Prayer

...He descended into hell...

Lutheran

he descended to the dead.*

*or "he descended into hell,"



So since you were objecting to my quotation of the creed and said I didn't use a "proper translation" of said creed (while accusing me of "winging it")...

...then later you said...Some use the word "hell". Others use the word "hades"....

...you are either attempting to walk back your comments or argue with yourself.



[quote author=christundivided]Regardless, none of the one's mentioned believe that Christ suffered in a burning hell.[/quote]

Did you forget? You were arguing correct language/translation, not doctrine....I'll remind you:

You don't even know how to follow you're own Catechism and you know very little about the evolution of the Creed. Here is the a proper translation of the various Latin creeds that came to be known as the "Apostle's Creed". - christundivided

 

[rsc2a]

Source for Copeland---  The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I threw my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him." He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." 5

Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification" (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), tape #00-0202, side 2.

Sounds like Adoptionism to me. Ugh...

 

[christundivided]

Go ahead. You can't. Some use the word "hell". Others use the word "hades". Regardless, none of the one's mentioned believe that Christ suffered in a burning hell. They clearly believe that "hell" is a reference to "sheol".

A correct translation of the Apostle's creed would use "hades". I have nothing against the Catholic declaration of the Apostle's Creed in descending to the "dead".

Obviously you're in over your head.

United Methodist

...he descended to the dead.*...

*or "He descended to hell."

Anglican Book of Common Prayer

...He descended into hell...

Lutheran

he descended to the dead.*

*or "he descended into hell,"



So since you were objecting to my quotation of the creed and said I didn't use a "proper translation" of said creed (while accusing me of "winging it")...

...then later you said...Some use the word "hell". Others use the word "hades"....

...you are either attempting to walk back your comments or argue with yourself.



[quote author=christundivided]Regardless, none of the one's mentioned believe that Christ suffered in a burning hell.

Did you forget? You were arguing correct language/translation, not doctrine....I'll remind you:

You don't even know how to follow you're own Catechism and you know very little about the evolution of the Creed. Here is the a proper translation of the various Latin creeds that came to be known as the "Apostle's Creed". - christundivided
[/quote]

I'm not playing you're little game anymore. You know exactly what I said. You didn't include a reference to Presbyterians but mentioned them in your first response. Very telling. You know they don't all agree and have no universal governing power to controls such.