So....

[Walt]

So...the gist of our adult SS class lesson yesterday was the need to practice separation from those less spiritual. The illustration was: it is easier for a less-spiritual person to bring you down than it is for you to bring them up to your level. I think this was a JH concept, but truthfully don't know for certain.

There wasn't an actual Scripture referenced, but the context was how Solomon's wives turned his heart away from God.

There was the typical ifb joking..."The only thing worse than having 700 wives .... is having 700 mother-in-laws!" Ha ha ha ha. "Can you imagine how long it took Solomon to leave for work in the morning? Goodbye, honey...Goodbye honey....Goodbye, honey....after all 700 goodbye kisses it would be dinner time!" ha ha ha ha

But the big point was the necessity of separating oneself from those less spiritual than oneself. I wondered, how do we get to determine what level spirituality we are on? And how can we discern what level our acquaintances are on? Maybe we should initiate the caste system of India and imprint different colored dots on our foreheads? We would all know the most spiritual color and the least spiritual color, and we would then easily be able to associate only with those who are on our level.

I guess on the forum, since we cannot see each other, we'd have to be on the honor system...

Haven't read the answers, but this bogus teaching made me very angry.  Of course there is no Scripture for this, because it is un-Scriptural teaching.  We are commanded to separate from the world, and we are commanded to separate from heretics.  But we are to encourage one another as we  grow in Christ... this comparing ourselves among ourselves to judge who is "more spiritual" is not wise.

I've been on the end of being judge "not spiritual enough to fellowship with" in a church that was much like FBCH. It was painful to have no one who would dare fellowship with me or my family in case we would rub off on them (or maybe, that they would be seen with the likes of us).

 

[Walt]

Posted by: fishinnut

So.....then what was Jesus doing hanging around with the less-spiritual than him.........disciples, tax collectors & sinners?

I know, right? Obviously...He could bring them up. I guess since we are not He, we are not capable of being brought up to a higher level of spirituality by someone more spiritual than ourselves.

We can never bring another up -- that is the work of the Holy Spirit transforming a life... but it seems that FBCH is more about conforming people to some man's rules. We are to love the brethren, and encourage one another.

 

[Walt]

Was this "teacher" a person from the former administration?

It is disappointing that some do not catch the direction of the pastor. This seems to be in opposition of Wilkerson's desire and mission.

Someone who would espouse that position could have a problem with pride.

 

[Walt]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

So...

Haven't read the answers, but this bogus teaching made me very angry.  Of course there is no Scripture for this, because it is un-Scriptural teaching. 

As you said!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Matthew1323]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

Carpet bombing this problem is not the answer IMO. 

I would like to believe that JW is demonstrating the spiritual and godly way to handle this long time and deep rooted problem.  It would be refreshing to see a FBC pastor demonstrate something like maybe trusting the Lord and waiting on His timetable and way.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

Walt, I am not former FBCH, so take my response with a grain of salt as it comes from an outside perspective, but would that approach not have looked at least like it was a perpetuation of the "my way or the highway" attitude that many/most at FBCH want to get away from?

 

[Walt]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

Carpet bombing this problem is not the answer IMO. 

I would like to believe that JW is demonstrating the spiritual and godly way to handle this long time and deep rooted problem.  It would be refreshing to see a FBC pastor demonstrate something like maybe trusting the Lord and waiting on His timetable and way.

Noted... but he cannot allow people to teach and preach the old "pastor is your pope" kind of garbage.  If not fired, removed from the position.  I still think letting go of some (like EL) would be a good thing... perhaps persuade him to take early retirement (not sure of EL's age).

 

[Walt]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

Walt, I am not former FBCH, so take my response with a grain of salt as it comes from an outside perspective, but would that approach not have looked at least like it was a perpetuation of the "my way or the highway" attitude that many/most at FBCH want to get away from?

Well, a good point.  I'm looking at it as rotten roots or a rotting foundation, or rotting wood around a window frame.

It seems, in my opinion, that the proper solution is a repentance of their past ways, and a thorough cleansing of those who were actively supporting it.  The SS teacher in the OP should be taken aside and gently corrected; if he will not heed the pastor, he should be removed from the post.

 

[bgwilkinson]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.

Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.

No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.

If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.

You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.

Try paying the bills then.

That would be the end of FBCH.

JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

 

[brainisengaged]

bgwilkinson said: I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.
Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.
No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.
If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.
You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.
Try paying the bills then.
That would be the end of FBCH.
JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

bgwilkinson, do you have full confidence in the deacon board?

 

[bgwilkinson]

bgwilkinson said: I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.
Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.
No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.
If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.
You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.
Try paying the bills then.
That would be the end of FBCH.
JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

bgwilkinson, do you have full confidence in the deacon board?

I have full confidence in the LORD.

I do not have full confidence in any mortal man, they can, do, and will fail at times.

The deacon board is made up of sincere men who are at best saved sinners that must depend upon the LORD's Holy Spirit to do the work of rebuilding and not themselves.

We must avoid the cultish popish man worship of the past if we are to grow as we did in the 80s.

I pray every day that we all put the LORD first, the deacons our pastor and all members of our assembly.

 

[Walt]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.

Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.

No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.

If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.

You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.

Try paying the bills then.

That would be the end of FBCH.

JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

No offense intended, but this sounds like an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.  Will not God bless if we do the right thing?

Anyway, I didn't say to remove all deacons and all staff -- just those who knew about and helped cover the sin of the two Jacks.

Teachers that continue to teach that the pastor is to be treated as a god need to be rebuked, and removed if they continue to push this false doctrine.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a nuclear explosion; perhaps he can just do replacements.  Under JH, every deacon candidate had to be approved by the pastor - if this is still in effect, he can "weed out" the wrong-uns over time.  Staff is harder, of course, especially if they have been there a long time and are close to retiring.

But just being right himself, although an excellent start, is not enough.

 

[Bruh]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.

Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.

No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.

If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.

You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.

Try paying the bills then.

That would be the end of FBCH.

JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

No offense intended, but this sounds like an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.  Will not God bless if we do the right thing?

Anyway, I didn't say to remove all deacons and all staff -- just those who knew about and helped cover the sin of the two Jacks.

Teachers that continue to teach that the pastor is to be treated as a god need to be rebuked, and removed if they continue to push this false doctrine.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a nuclear explosion; perhaps he can just do replacements.  Under JH, every deacon candidate had to be approved by the pastor - if this is still in effect, he can "weed out" the wrong-uns over time.  Staff is harder, of course, especially if they have been there a long time and are close to retiring.

But just being right himself, although an excellent start, is not enough.

I'm curious, who? what staff needs to be let go?

 

[qwerty]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.

Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.

No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.

If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.

You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.

Try paying the bills then.

That would be the end of FBCH.

JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

No offense intended, but this sounds like an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.  Will not God bless if we do the right thing?

Anyway, I didn't say to remove all deacons and all staff -- just those who knew about and helped cover the sin of the two Jacks.

Teachers that continue to teach that the pastor is to be treated as a god need to be rebuked, and removed if they continue to push this false doctrine.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a nuclear explosion; perhaps he can just do replacements.  Under JH, every deacon candidate had to be approved by the pastor - if this is still in effect, he can "weed out" the wrong-uns over time.  Staff is harder, of course, especially if they have been there a long time and are close to retiring.

But just being right himself, although an excellent start, is not enough.

I'm curious, who? what staff needs to be let go?

This is what I said back in 2012, still believe it (This is primarily because of his Biblical heresy):

I have said it before, every Bible teacher needs to be let go or reassigned...every assistant pastor needs to be let go or reassigned, every administrator that meet weekly with Schaap just needs to be dismissed. Let them cut the grass, change the oil on a bus, change lightbulbs...not belittling the men who currently do that work, but the blue-collar workers could do a better job at teaching than the over-priced bell hops they have doing it now. The scholars of FBCH/HAC cast their lot with Schaap, stood by him when he went nuts, and some still stand by him today.....it is beyond evil.

Ok, now for the kicker.... Lapina is on the ethics board of one of the local communities.

 

[16KJV11]

qwerty said:
I believe that Bro. Wilkerson is the right man to get things back on track.  I have met him many times and he is gracious, humble, approachable...all the things that you could never find in JS; but when I hear of him turning the church congregation over to EL, it makes me concerned.

But yes we do now have a pastor who is truly humble and who does not want his position artificially elevated. Very refreshing, and as it should be.

He would be far more believed that he intended a real change if he would get rid of all, deacons and "staff" that supported the two Jacks.

It's all very well his being humble and not trying to elevate his position, but he needs, as leader, to do a thorough house-cleaning.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how FBCH is organized.

It is a not-for-profit corporation set up under the laws of the State of Indiana in 1913.

Deacons make up the board of directors and are elected every three years. There is no provision in the by-laws to get rid of a deacon except for heresy or gross immorality, the same goes for the pastor.

No pastor can get rid of a deacon. JH was not able to get rid of VN, he had to wait until VN left of his own.

If all the deacons, there are well over 100, and their families left you would have just a shell of a congregation.

You are talking several thousand people when you include all the families and their relatives who would probably leave too. It would be like a nuclear explosion. There would be virtually nothing left.

Try paying the bills then.

That would be the end of FBCH.

JW was not hired to destroy FBCH but to pastor it and help us rebuild.

I am amazed that people who are so against pastoral authority would think that any pastor should have the right to discard or fire any deacon or staff member at will.