So, who would have been a good fit at FBCH?

[tobytyler]

The largest Southern Baptist churches of the 90's who had very influential pastors now are running considerably less now than when the high profile ones were there.  Jerry Vines (FBC, Jacksonville) and Adrian Rogers (Bellevue Baptist, Memphis) pastored the largest churches in the SBC and now, even though still considered megachurches, don't bring in the attendees that once came.  No matter who was called to pastor at FBC Hammond, the attendance may have dwindled just because of the transition.  In the IFB, look at Lee Roberson and Tom Malone's churches----very small crowds in comparison to these churches' hey days.  Kudos to Jonathan Falwell at Thomas Road Baptist in Lynchburg, who seems to be drawing even better crowds than his father.

 

[RAIDER]

The largest Southern Baptist churches of the 90's who had very influential pastors now are running considerably less now than when the high profile ones were there.  Jerry Vines (FBC, Jacksonville) and Adrian Rogers (Bellevue Baptist, Memphis) pastored the largest churches in the SBC and now, even though still considered megachurches, don't bring in the attendees that once came.  No matter who was called to pastor at FBC Hammond, the attendance may have dwindled just because of the transition.  In the IFB, look at Lee Roberson and Tom Malone's churches----very small crowds in comparison to these churches hey days.  Kudos to Jonathan Falwell at Thomas Road Baptist in Lynchburg, who seems to be drawing even better crowds than his father.

I believe you are correct.  A lot of times people like to point out that the IFB movement is dying.  While this may be true to a point, many other denominations are in much worse shape and dying much quicker.  Most ot the megachurches of our "tickle my ears" generation are the contemporary churches.  I would include Jonathan Falwell in this group.

 

[rsc2a]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

Wow, neither am I.
I'm just a pastor of around 50 to 75 people. 
Don't know many of the people you talk about who are CEO's instead of pastors.
But no matter, Sword's approach to a new pastor coming to a church sounds reasonable, whether you have 50 or 500 or 5,000.
It just sounds like good wisdom.
I can appreciate what you are doing and it is very important, I would never demean someone who is discipling others for the cause of Christ.
There are, however, good and wholesome churches that God has blessed with a lot of members, and the Word of God is just as effectual if being preached with the power of the Holy Ghost.
If the church is being led by wise people, will break its membership down into small group Sunday School classes where each member can get more of what you are talking about.

You are, of course, correct...the church at Jerusalem grew from 120 to 'multitudes'.
I'd guess his kitchen table has plenty of room....

God also forced the breakup of that church into smaller segments right after this. Thanks for making my point so clearly.

 

[groupie]

A leader should never shepherd more than sheep than he can handle. The house church movement is a great model that starts an offshoot in another house when the current one gets too big. I think the reason why so many people at FBC (I was one of them) fall the cracks as the flock is too big to give any meaningful personal attention.

 

[sword]

I have no problem with home churches. I think they have their place but to contend that is the only biblical model is silly.

If God did not intend for churches to ever be larger than a home could handle, there would have been no need for the "church" at all.

He would have used the institution that already existed, the home. Much like in biblical time the Father would be the spiritual leader for the extended family and possibly a neighbor or two & that would have been a very effective model. There would have been no need for a pastor, elders, and deacons. No need to bring tithes offerings. All ministry & service would be through each respective home. For whatever reason God ordained the "new testament church" so as best we know how that is the model we follow.
I do not judge a church by its size (quantity) but by its results (quality).

 

[rsc2a]

I have no problem with home churches. I think they have their place but to contend that is the only biblical model is silly.

Absolutely.  I wouldn't say otherwise. 

[quote author=sword] I do not judge a church by its size (quantity) but by its results (quality).[/quote]

Yet look at the results once a group gets large enough where the individual is not practically accountable to the entire group. 

The only time large churches work is when there are smaller groups within the church actually doing the work of "church". If those churches want to gather for a performance later,  great...but let's be honest.  Church is happening in the smaller group,  not the theater.

 

[sword]

Some examples where a large church might be more effective than a small church.

* Expanded types of outreach: such as mission support, homeless & street ministries, senior programs...
* Specialized programs such as counseling, addiction programs, support groups, ministry training...
* Outreach programs: bus ministry, children’s ministries, nursing home ministries...
* Having a broader impact on the community: Through larger projects that require a lot of planning & manpower...
* Focused ministries: for the deaf, blind, disabled, mentally challenged, youth, children, singles, targeted age groups...
* Allows for a much larger Christian family to provide friendship & support...

These are just a few areas where a larger church has some clear advantages. Clearly there are advantages in every model. My point is that regardless of your size you can do a great work for God. Many would say most very large churches are actually a collection many small churches under one roof. 

 

[16KJV11]

I have no problem with home churches. I think they have their place but to contend that is the only biblical model is silly.

Absolutely.  I wouldn't say otherwise. 

[quote author=sword] I do not judge a church by its size (quantity) but by its results (quality).

Yet look at the results once a group gets large enough where the individual is not practically accountable to the entire group. 

The only time large churches work is when there are smaller groups within the church actually doing the work of "church". If those churches want to gather for a performance later,  great...but let's be honest.  Church is happening in the smaller group,  not the theater.
[/quote]
Not sure how to take you RSC...
We IFB are constantly criticized for being overly dogmatic and contentious, but you are the only one with an attitude around here.  I can see it in your posts.
Lighten up.

 

[RAIDER]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

So your solution to the OP would be for FBCH to divide up into 400 home churches?

 

[rsc2a]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

So your solution to the OP would be for FBCH to divide up into 400 home churches?

My solution would be for it to plant churches in the communities where its members live using those members as the seed planted.

If only megachurches were more focused on planting churches active in their own neighborhoods instead of trying to build the biggest...

 

[RAIDER]

My solution would be for it to plant churches in the communities where its members live using those members as the seed planted.

If only megachurches were more focused on planting churches active in their own neighborhoods instead of trying to build the biggest...

I don't disagree with your post in theory.  I'm sure there are probably IFB churches in the neighborhoods of many of the people that attend these magachurches.  These neighborhood churches may have a pastor that doesn't "misinster" to the needs of these individuals or families.  These folks may travel 45 minutes to be fed, blessed, and to be a blessing.

 

[fishinnut]

My solution would be for it to plant churches in the communities where its members live using those members as the seed planted.

If only megachurches were more focused on planting churches active in their own neighborhoods instead of trying to build the biggest...

I don't disagree with your post in theory.  I'm sure there are probably IFB churches in the neighborhoods of many of the people that attend these magachurches.  These neighborhood churches may have a pastor that doesn't "misinster" to the needs of these individuals or families.  These folks may travel 45 minutes to be fed, blessed, and to be a blessing.

Yep.....I do.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

Wow, neither am I.
I'm just a pastor of around 50 to 75 people. 
Don't know many of the people you talk about who are CEO's instead of pastors.
But no matter, Sword's approach to a new pastor coming to a church sounds reasonable, whether you have 50 or 500 or 5,000.
It just sounds like good wisdom.
I can appreciate what you are doing and it is very important, I would never demean someone who is discipling others for the cause of Christ.
There are, however, good and wholesome churches that God has blessed with a lot of members, and the Word of God is just as effectual if being preached with the power of the Holy Ghost.
If the church is being led by wise people, will break its membership down into small group Sunday School classes where each member can get more of what you are talking about.

You are, of course, correct...the church at Jerusalem grew from 120 to 'multitudes'.
I'd guess his kitchen table has plenty of room....

God also forced the breakup of that church into smaller segments right after this. Thanks for making my point so clearly.

Congratulations! Now you can remove the extension from your table and put the extra chair back in the garage!

 

[RAIDER]

God also forced the breakup of that church into smaller segments right after this. Thanks for making my point so clearly.

Congratulations! Now you can remove the extension from your table and put the extra chair back in the garage!

And let the water out of the baptistery.....I mean swimming pool. 

 

[Still There]

You know they tried those home churches for a while, but that went a bust.  We used to attend one of them, and for a while we did bring in some of the people from the neighborhood.  But then FBC people started showing up in droves and even though we told them to stop coming and start their own, they didn't and the neighborhood people stopped coming and we finally stopped.  The problem was we got the cooks of the FBC people were coming and scared away the neighborhood people.  I had known one lady for years and she had left FBC very disgruntled.  She had come to one of those and when I wasn't there, my husband introduced himself to her and told her who he was married to and she made the comment that I was the only one who was friendly to her family the whole time she was there at FBC.  Her kids were in the nursery and she was a nice lady and she and her husband were having a rough time.  She stayed for a while, but the bad memories were just too rough on her.  So sad.

 

[North]

The main segment of the home church movement is non denominational. I do not feel that is the best type of church to attend if you want to keep your family lineage for the next 100's of years strong in the biblical and baptist doctrines. If there are baptist churches that meet in homes, I have no concerns with that.

 

[groupie]

you want to keep your family lineage for the next 100's of years strong in the biblical and baptist doctrines.

Why not find a church that just has Biblical doctrines???

 

[prophet]

You know they tried those home churches for a while, but that went a bust.  We used to attend one of them, and for a while we did bring in some of the people from the neighborhood.  But then FBC people started showing up in droves and even though we told them to stop coming and start their own, they didn't and the neighborhood people stopped coming and we finally stopped.  The problem was we got the cooks of the FBC people were coming and scared away the neighborhood people.  I had known one lady for years and she had left FBC very disgruntled.  She had come to one of those and when I wasn't there, my husband introduced himself to her and told her who he was married to and she made the comment that I was the only one who was friendly to her family the whole time she was there at FBC.  Her kids were in the nursery and she was a nice lady and she and her husband were having a rough time.  She stayed for a while, but the bad memories were just too rough on her.  So sad.

When I pastored the FBChapel of North Englewood, I taught the College Students not to take 'transfers'.
They can be nothing but trouble, potentially, and are not worth the risk.
I taugt them to build a core of neighborhood people that you've led to the Lord.  It is their location, their church.
The ones who did so, thank me often, and have relayed stories of "here's your hat, what's your hurry?"
Sending 'transfers' on their way...
Only to find out, after the fact, that they caused problems somewhere else.

It isn't Scriptural, and I won't fight over it. Just experience talkin.

Eventually, the new core of believers will grow teeth, and be able to discern.who sincerely needs help.
But a supposed believer, who is incapable of teaching the Word themself, is too big of a headache for a church planter to deal with.

Anishinaabe

 

[fishinnut]

I cannot think of anyone in their right mind who would have even candidate.............there.

 

[RAIDER]

I cannot think of anyone in their right mind who would have even candidate.............there.

I agree.  I know that we are not Bob Gray fans on the HAC FFF.  Several years ago I was eating a meal with Gray.  We were talking about Dr. Hyles and FBCH.  He asked me, "Who do you think will take that pastorate after Dr. Hyles is gone?"  I looked at him and said, "You".  He very quickly said, "No way!  I don't want to be known as the guy who destroyed that church".

This was at the time when LBT was at it's height.  Maybe Gray changed his mind over time.