So, who would have been a good fit at FBCH?

[sword]

I believe there were several things that made this a very difficult position to fill:

* If someone was chosen outside of FBCH they would have a tremendious learning curve.  Can you imagine showing up in Hammond for your first day as pastor.  Where would you start? 

It would have been a daunting task but not that different than any new CEO starting at a company. The first couple months would be very typical of any new CEO's.

1. Spend some time walking around the organization & seek Gods direction.
2. Meet department (division) heads & evaluate their competency.
3. Review goals & objectives for each department or division.
4. Review budgets & determine fiscal condition of each department.
5. Inspect every property or facility that answers to you. Be sure they meet the standards you want for the company or ministry.
6. Seek input from your current leaders as well as your customers (members, students, visitors, clients).
7. Began to revise the goals & objectives for each ministry (department, division, business unit) to bring them in line with your vision for the organization.
8. Get to know your key people as quickly as possible.
9. Lead by example in everything you do.

 

[rsc2a]

Church as business.  Ugh.

 

[RAIDER]

I believe there were several things that made this a very difficult position to fill:

* If someone was chosen outside of FBCH they would have a tremendious learning curve.  Can you imagine showing up in Hammond for your first day as pastor.  Where would you start? 

It would have been a daunting task but not that different than any new CEO starting at a company. The first couple months would be very typical of any new CEO's.

1. Spend some time walking around the organization & seek Gods direction.
2. Meet department (division) heads & evaluate their competency.
3. Review goals & objectives for each department or division.
4. Review budgets & determine fiscal condition of each department.
5. Inspect every property or facility that answers to you. Be sure they meet the standards you want for the company or ministry.
6. Seek input from your current leaders as well as your customers (members, students, visitors, clients).
7. Began to revise the goals & objectives for each ministry (department, division, business unit) to bring them in line with your vision for the organization.
8. Get to know your key people as quickly as possible.
9. Lead by example in everything you do.

Good points.  Meanwhile everything is running wide open.

 

[16KJV11]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

 

[prophet]

Here's where you Nicolaitans lose me.

Anishinaabe

 

[rsc2a]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

 

[Fresh Air]

Why was it okay in anyone's mind for Bro Hyles to choose his successor. As Independent Baptists doesn't that go against what we believe in? Of course if a business man is looking for a successor then it makes more sense, after all, "God's business is the greatest business"

Bro. Hyles didn't. He sought to prepare men, but he never made his choice repeatedly clear in public, nor did he orchestrate whom it would be.

I do think a pastor who has been at his church for decades and has a good relationship with the people should have input on that decision, but he needs to make sure it is the church's decision. I think Bro. Hyles struck that balance, and if he erred he did so on the side of not being clear enough with what he thought.

 

[RAIDER]

Why was it okay in anyone's mind for Bro Hyles to choose his successor. As Independent Baptists doesn't that go against what we believe in? Of course if a business man is looking for a successor then it makes more sense, after all, "God's business is the greatest business"

Bro. Hyles didn't. He sought to prepare men, but he never made his choice repeatedly clear in public, nor did he orchestrate whom it would be.

I do think a pastor who has been at his church for decades and has a good relationship with the people should have input on that decision, but he needs to make sure it is the church's decision. I think Bro. Hyles struck that balance, and if he erred he did so on the side of not being clear enough with what he thought.

I agree.  Of course, Schaap claimed that Dr. Hyles had groomed him.

 

[16KJV11]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

Wow, neither am I.
I'm just a pastor of around 50 to 75 people. 
Don't know many of the people you talk about who are CEO's instead of pastors.
But no matter, Sword's approach to a new pastor coming to a church sounds reasonable, whether you have 50 or 500 or 5,000.
It just sounds like good wisdom.
I can appreciate what you are doing and it is very important, I would never demean someone who is discipling others for the cause of Christ.
There are, however, good and wholesome churches that God has blessed with a lot of members, and the Word of God is just as effectual if being preached with the power of the Holy Ghost.
If the church is being led by wise people, will break its membership down into small group Sunday School classes where each member can get more of what you are talking about. 

 

[rsc2a]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

 

[RAIDER]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

 

[rsc2a]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

 

[16KJV11]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

why is having a large church a problem? Maybe the people actually like going there. Nobody is sticking a gun to their head and making them attend that church.

 

[RAIDER]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

My guess is that if your home group grows too big for your home that you would divide into two home groups, etc.  Others feel that they should congregate in larger groups in a building that they call a church.

 

[kaba]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

My guess is that if your home group grows too big for your home that you would divide into two home groups, etc.  Others feel that they should congregate in larger groups in a building that they call a church.

AGREED

 

[rsc2a]

And yet the requirements people are saying should be considered are akin to those a company would consider when hiring a new CEO (with that term actually being used). What about the requirements in 1 Timothy, Titus, and 1 Peter? Shouldn't they be enough?

I do get your point.  I know men who fulfill the requirements to which you point, but they would not have the organizational ability to pastor a church of this size.

Then maybe the "of this size" is the problem.

why is having a large church a problem? Maybe the people actually like going there. Nobody is sticking a gun to their head and making them attend that church.

If I'm attending a sporting event or a concert, I don't care if there are 100, 1000, 5000, or 10k. If I'm looking for a community where I can disciple and be discipled, where we can be intimately involved with each other, where we can hold each other accountable and also be there in times of distress, I'll take the smaller group. In fact, I would argue that having that would be impossible once a group reaches a certain size. Just take a look at Jesus...He stuck with three, twelve, perhaps seventy-two depending on how you want to look at it. The thousands...they were often there for a performance.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=RAIDER]...in a building that they call a church.[/quote]

Couldn't have stated the problem more clearly myself.

 

[prophet]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

Yeah, we no longer recognize a church.
It's like, when you're in a strange town, and you drive right past a store with quality merchandise, looking for Wally World, cuz you know what you get there.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

Why was it okay in anyone's mind for Bro Hyles to choose his successor. As Independent Baptists doesn't that go against what we believe in? Of course if a business man is looking for a successor then it makes more sense, after all, "God's business is the greatest business"

Bro. Hyles didn't. He sought to prepare men, but he never made his choice repeatedly clear in public, nor did he orchestrate whom it would be.

I do think a pastor who has been at his church for decades and has a good relationship with the people should have input on that decision, but he needs to make sure it is the church's decision. I think Bro. Hyles struck that balance, and if he erred he did so on the side of not being clear enough with what he thought.

I agree.  Of course, Schaap claimed that Dr. Hyles had groomed him.

He did groom him, he didn't "annoint" him, which the liar later tried to imply.  He was always vague, when telling that story, incidentally.

But we all knew that Bro. Hyles gave up on him.

He had made him the "singles pastor", but after he gave up grooming him, he moved him up to admins. at the College, figuring that that was his forte.

Anishinaabe

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Church as business.  Ugh.

Do you currently pastor or have you ever pastored a church?

Am I part of a group of men leading and teaching others that meet around our kitchen tables for prayer, teaching, and community and provide support of all types to each other and the larger community? Yes.

Am I part of a corporate structure with budgets, buildings, and a CEO running the thing whose primary concern is metrics and financials? Have been, but nope. Never ran one...never intend to regardless of how big our "kitchen table" gets.

Wow, neither am I.
I'm just a pastor of around 50 to 75 people. 
Don't know many of the people you talk about who are CEO's instead of pastors.
But no matter, Sword's approach to a new pastor coming to a church sounds reasonable, whether you have 50 or 500 or 5,000.
It just sounds like good wisdom.
I can appreciate what you are doing and it is very important, I would never demean someone who is discipling others for the cause of Christ.
There are, however, good and wholesome churches that God has blessed with a lot of members, and the Word of God is just as effectual if being preached with the power of the Holy Ghost.
If the church is being led by wise people, will break its membership down into small group Sunday School classes where each member can get more of what you are talking about.

You are, of course, correct...the church at Jerusalem grew from 120 to 'multitudes'.
I'd guess his kitchen table has plenty of room....